Board 8 > Game of Thrones Season 8: Topic 3 (Spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Fire is the Lord of Light's thing, so it's thematically inconsistent for Arya to be opposed to Dany via Rl'lor. So that's probably what will happen anyway.
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Nanis23 posted...

Can someone explain the goddamn HORSE please

Sansa and Jeyne calling Arya "Arya Horseface" was a deep foreshadow at her ability to summon horses to her location in times of great need.
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Nanis23 posted...

Can someone explain the goddamn HORSE please

Bran
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I guess this is just how I see it but to me, Jaime wants to be a good person, and his desire to be a good person is at odds with the fact that everyone already views him as an irredeemable person, including himself, and so he basically puts his entire self worth into his relationship with Cersei. He has basically throughout made it clear he will do ANYTHING for her, and their relationship is all that really matters to him. So, when Jaime says he doesn't care about the people in kings landing...its half true. In reality, he does care about them. But does he care about them more than he cares about saving Cersei? Not at all, he would let the entire world burn for her. He also loves Tyrion, and Brienne...but ultimately they don't matter in comparison, either. Him being a good person is always going to be conditional, and Cersei is the condition.

To finish on Jaime for tonight - even ignoring character and motivations, it sucks that he essentially resolved his attachment to his maddening sister through Brienne, then immediately went back on it and then went to Kings Landing with the sole purpose of dying. That was the entire function of him this episode - to die. That's why it fucking sucks. Could've had Jaime join Tormund beyond the wall and had no functional difference.

Like, when Tyrion told Jaime to have Cersei ring the bells and open the gates to surrender, that was such an obvious hint that Cersei would do it as a trap for Dany's army, letting them in to kill them with ambush or wildfire. That sort of trick would make sense to set up Dany to go wild, and would give Jaime purpose, as well as granting payoff for his developed empathy and the contrast to Cersei's lack of it.
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ESY16 posted...

Nanis23 posted...

Can someone explain the goddamn HORSE please

Bran

Does he even still have his warg abilities? Figure he lost them when he became the three-eyed raven... he has repeatedly said he's "not Bran Stark" anymore, after all.

And even so, that'd be too smart for these writers.

Im convinced that if Arya can miraculously survive through all this bullshit, so can Cersei and Jaime. Long live the Lannisters! They escaped and sailed away after all.

MartinFF7 posted...

ESY16 posted...

Nanis23 posted...

Can someone explain the goddamn HORSE please

Bran

Does he even still have his warg abilities? Figure he lost them when he became the three-eyed raven... he has repeatedly said he's "not Bran Stark" anymore, after all.

And even so, that'd be too smart for these writers.

Yeah he went into the crows during the battle of winterfell
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MartinFF7 posted...

ESY16 posted...

Nanis23 posted...

Can someone explain the goddamn HORSE please

Bran

Does he even still have his warg abilities? Figure he lost them when he became the three-eyed raven... he has repeatedly said he's "not Bran Stark" anymore, after all.

And even so, that'd be too smart for these writers.

He was using them in the Battle of Winterfell, took over a bunch of ravens when he told Theon he had to go or whatever.
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Okay predix for next episode for everything to come full circle:

Cersei walks out of the burning rubble (naked of course), carrying her baby whom she gives to Jon to protect as part of her dying wish. Jon, knowing that Dany will kill the spawn of a Lannister, has Davos smuggle it back to Sam/Gilly to raise as their own and makes them promise to never reveal its true parents.

it's like poetry, it rhymes!
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xp1337 posted...

He was using them in the Battle of Winterfell, took over a bunch of ravens when he told Theon he had to go or whatever.

Oh damn I forgot that, good point.

I am going to cling to this horse theory!!

Decided to rewatch an episode of Season 1 tonight after seeing Arya in King's Landing again...

Holy crap, think I stumbled upon something mighty excellent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pozI5n6A_Io" data-time="
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Bad end was always my hope for this series and bad end is still on the table.
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The bad end was the long night. It's been avoided. Now we just get the options of varying levels of mediocre ends.

we could always roll the dice for doom of valyria ii

have dragonstone be revealed as an active volcano or something
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red13n posted...

Bad end was always my hope for this series and bad end is still on the table.

What was your idea of the bad end?
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ESY16 posted...

Nanis23 posted...

Can someone explain the goddamn HORSE please

Bran

I am actually ok with this
Much better than just a random horse showing up after the whole city burned to the ground
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anything that isn't a good end?
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Turns out all the bad writing has been because of the Shiba in the control room.
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Bobby B is rolling in his grave right now, he knew Kelly C's true nature

GODS HE WAS RIGHT BACK THEN
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that was a much better episode than everything so far this season.

might have redeemed the series back from the brink of "lmao too bad about that ending tho" for me
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So:

The Iron Fleet did nothing of value this episode. The scouting party should have been destroyed last episode by both dragons, but some of Dany's ships are destroyed, including that carrying Missandei, who washes ashore where she's captured. This allows the following scene:

Rhaegal is above the water, burning the Iron Fleet, Dany is riding Drogon, blows open the wall, the army floods through as we saw, the bells start ringing and someone gets a lucky ballista shot off on Rhaegal. Cue the burning of the city.

That way we don't have the dumb of losing a dragon to a surprise ambush on open water, Dany can reasonably believe that her dragons can't be harmed by the ballistae (since they posed no issue in the previous episode) we give Dany a reason to flip the switch after the bells of surrender have already rung and we show that Cersei's belief in the defence of the city was reasonable in that there was a chance they could take down the dragons, they just failed to.
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This episode had some problems just like most do...but it was fine. GoT fans are basically becoming insufferable and just looking for a reason to whine.

I whined non-stop about the white walker episode this season because it was so fucking bad, but people seem to be whining about this episode more despite it being superior in every way, and we could actually see what was happening on this one.

Living named characters:

1. Jon
2. Sansa
3. Arya
4. Bran
5. Dany
6. Greyworm
7. Brienne
8. Tormund
9. Tyrion
10. Podrick
11. Davos
12. Yara
13. Sam
14. Gilles
15. Little Sam
16. Bronn
17. Daario
18. Robin
19. Gendry
20. Meera
21. Edmure
22. Hot Pie

So who dies next week?

My list:

1. Dany
2. Greyworm
3. Sansa
4. Brienne
5. Bronn
6. Davos

I think the rest live...even pointless Podrick.

I think where I land on the episode is this:

This episode was kinda fine, for the most part. There was some good stuff, some bad stuff and some dumb stuff. I think this "quality" of episode fits in with like seasons 6 and 7 (which aren't exactly AMAZING seasons). There's certainly been worse, especially in this very season. And this isn't me excusing the stuff that is bad either. But, here's the problem:

- Just being "fine" IS disappointing on its own. We're on the final episodes of the series now, I think we can expect better than fine for the second to last episode.

- This episode is worse coming after 3 and especially 4. Like honestly, coming after 4 creates problems that wouldn't exist otherwise. This episode would be better without 4 existing.

- I think we can say that episodes 3 and 4 are generally considering disappointing if not bad episodes. With that in mind, the backlash towards this "fine" episode makes sense. It's hard to put into worse, but like the "magic" of the show has been ruined. This show has always had dumb or bad things happen, but it's been more forgivable before. The good was SO good you overlook a lukewarm episode here and there. But now the Dam of Bad has broken so to speak, and now that things have gone so south every problem now feels more pronounced.
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The only real problem I have with this ending is that Jaime's character just seems a mess. They did all his character development over the seasons only to go back on it. I was one of the people fine with the Brienne part but that now looks stupid and unnecessary after what happened in this episode.

The Euron stuff looks a little silly and forced both in this episode and the last. Daenerys losing a dragon to him last week, they could have done that so much better by having it happen this week in this battle.

I didn't like that Cersei died that way either. It doesn't seem like a fitting end for someone who has been so antagonistic. I don't understand why they couldn't have Daenerys burn the tower she was in, like that should have been one of her first thoughts when torching everything and she had to know where she would be.

Everything else I'm kinda ok with. The Daenerys stuff is fine, the seeds have been there a long time and it's only them rushing this last season that makes it look rushed. When you take everything as a whole compared to her previous behavior, it makes sense. And I'd imagine where this is heading is that Jon will have to kill her. Possibly Arya but Jon makes more sense I think.

Sad to see the Hound die who was my favorite character but was a fitting end to his arc.

Holy hell that was bad.

Nearly everyone was so wildly out of character.

I was a bit disappointed in the ends for some characters here, such as Varys, Jaime, Cersei, Euron etc. No real satisfaction or feels with these deaths, unlike in earlier seasons.

I think the main problem is they are rushing through things. Clegane Bowl for example was good, but in earlier seasons, that scene would easily last at least twice as long, and it just didn't live up to the "epic fight scene" I was expecting would be coming for years. Guess it was still a better resolution of a seasons long build up than what happened with the Night King...

Haven't seen any spoilers for the final episode, but I get the feeling it'll be mediocre to disappointing. Can't see a satisfying ending from here.
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red13n posted...

anything that isn't a good end?

Uhhhhh, everyone seem to have very different ideas of what constitutes a good or bad ending, besides obvious things like the Long Night.
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User728 posted...

This episode had some problems just like most do...but it was fine. GoT fans are basically becoming insufferable and just looking for a reason to whine.

I whined non-stop about the white walker episode this season because it was so fucking bad, but people seem to be whining about this episode more despite it being superior in every way, and we could actually see what was happening on this one.

This is a pretty dumb PoV.

ShatteredElysium posted...

The Daenerys stuff is fine, the seeds have been there a long time and it's only them rushing this last season that makes it look rushed. When you take everything as a whole compared to her previous behavior, it makes sense.

It doesn't though. It's cherry picking bits of her previous behavior while ignoring the swaths of other things. I mean, Dany has been entitled, naive, and has thought she's invincible throughout the show. Most of her big displays of power throughout the show are based on those. We shouldn't believe she LIKES carnage. That was never a displayed character trait.

We know she took advantage of harsh punishments, but for the most part, the show framed them as being necessary. When she originally freed the Unsullied, that wasn't an act of madness, it was her making a reckless play because she believed she'd be fine.

Dany has often shown love of strangers and care for their safety beyond what is appropriate. Burning the city is out of character for her. Full stop. And it's tacking on a "mad" qualifier to her without earning it. Missandei's execution wasn't the lynchpin which made her go mad... she didn't make that decision until the city surrendered.

That's what we were given. Dany decided to kill millions of innocents because the city surrendered and she won.
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HanOfTheNekos posted...

User728 posted...

This episode had some problems just like most do...but it was fine. GoT fans are basically becoming insufferable and just looking for a reason to whine.

I whined non-stop about the white walker episode this season because it was so fucking bad, but people seem to be whining about this episode more despite it being superior in every way, and we could actually see what was happening on this one.

This is a pretty dumb PoV.

ShatteredElysium posted...

The Daenerys stuff is fine, the seeds have been there a long time and it's only them rushing this last season that makes it look rushed. When you take everything as a whole compared to her previous behavior, it makes sense.

It doesn't though. It's cherry picking bits of her previous behavior while ignoring the swaths of other things. I mean, Dany has been entitled, naive, and has thought she's invincible throughout the show. Most of her big displays of power throughout the show are based on those. We shouldn't believe she LIKES carnage. That was never a displayed character trait.

We know she took advantage of harsh punishments, but for the most part, the show framed them as being necessary. When she originally freed the Unsullied, that wasn't an act of madness, it was her making a reckless play because she believed she'd be fine.

Dany has often shown love of strangers and care for their safety beyond what is appropriate. Burning the city is out of character for her. Full stop. And it's tacking on a "mad" qualifier to her without earning it. Missandei's execution wasn't the lynchpin which made her go mad... she didn't make that decision until the city surrendered.

That's what we were given. Dany decided to kill millions of innocents because the city surrendered and she won.

Yeah, this is like World of Warcraft writing, where you have a character that has been portrayed as ruthless and definitely not a nice person suddenly leap off the slippery slope and go full Hitler. With the explanation that they went mad. At least WoW uses the excuse, lol they were corrupted by the Old Gods! Does this writing team have any connection to Blizzard?
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HanOfTheNekos posted...

We shouldn't believe she LIKES carnage. That was never a displayed character trait.

That's why this is an actual development. She had every element of the mad queen, except for the conscious choice of destruction over peace. That is what she gained in the last few episodes from all her loved ones dying, the party, and especially from Jon's betrayal. It makes sense.

The only really bad depiction of Dany here was that they stopped portraying her as a character after she started killing. We'll see what they do in the last episode but they need to show things from her side to really sell this development. But the writing makes sense for her.

Totally ignoring Cersei's tower makes no sense though.
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she destroyed KL to instill fear in the people, they don't love her but at least they'll fear and respect her power now that she's shown it

she was still debating doing it when she heard the bell
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Yeah Daenerys leaned into it this week. She didn't go mad this week, she embraced her own madness. She embraced ruling through fear. That's why we saw stuff from her that we'd never seen before.
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foolm0r0n posted...

HanOfTheNekos posted...

We shouldn't believe she LIKES carnage. That was never a displayed character trait.

That's why this is an actual development. She had every element of the mad queen, except for the conscious choice of destruction over peace. That is what she gained in the last few episodes from all her loved ones dying, the party, and especially from Jon's betrayal. It makes sense.

Overwhelming care of the common people was an element of a mad queen?

I don't follow.
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I wish Jaime just died on the beach instead of somehow surviving 3 stabs to the chest. That would be a much more fitting end to his tragedy. Instead of giving him and Cersei the most beautiful death in the whole series.

You can tell D&D love Cersei and think her authoritarianism is overall good and sympathetic. It's gonna make their Confederate show really weird.
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yeah the more I think about it the more i hate how jaime and cersei ended
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I think the dumbest thing about this whole KL battle was the people rushing to get INTO the Red Keep during a siege

why in the world would anyone head into the capital after hearing of an imminent battle AT THE CAPITAL
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foolm0r0n posted...

It's gonna make their Confederate show really weird.

That got canned over a year ago, at least until Star Wars comes out.
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HanOfTheNekos posted...

Overwhelming care of the common people was an element of a mad queen?

I don't follow.

Literally yes. If you're willing to kill 100 to save 10000 then you're not far from killing 10000 to save 1000000 in the future generations. That's exactly how Dany justified it this episode. From a utilitarian perspective she's still the hero. Don't you know pro-war people IRL who justify Syria and Yemen etc in the same way?

Of course, that's just what she says. She wants power more than anything, and always has. Freeing slaves and such was always more about the power grab than anything. Same with Cersei who claims to love her kids but it's still about the power more than anything.
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HanOfTheNekos posted...

User728 posted...

This episode had some problems just like most do...but it was fine. GoT fans are basically becoming insufferable and just looking for a reason to whine.

I whined non-stop about the white walker episode this season because it was so fucking bad, but people seem to be whining about this episode more despite it being superior in every way, and we could actually see what was happening on this one.

This is a pretty dumb PoV.

ShatteredElysium posted...

The Daenerys stuff is fine, the seeds have been there a long time and it's only them rushing this last season that makes it look rushed. When you take everything as a whole compared to her previous behavior, it makes sense.

It doesn't though. It's cherry picking bits of her previous behavior while ignoring the swaths of other things. I mean, Dany has been entitled, naive, and has thought she's invincible throughout the show. Most of her big displays of power throughout the show are based on those. We shouldn't believe she LIKES carnage. That was never a displayed character trait.

We know she took advantage of harsh punishments, but for the most part, the show framed them as being necessary. When she originally freed the Unsullied, that wasn't an act of madness, it was her making a reckless play because she believed she'd be fine.

Dany has often shown love of strangers and care for their safety beyond what is appropriate. Burning the city is out of character for her. Full stop. And it's tacking on a "mad" qualifier to her without earning it. Missandei's execution wasn't the lynchpin which made her go mad... she didn't make that decision until the city surrendered.

That's what we were given. Dany decided to kill millions of innocents because the city surrendered and she won.

Im fine with you disagreeing with me, but if you arent going to say anything other than this is dumb then you dont need to bother replying at all.

The worst part of the writing here is really that so many people opposed Dany burning the city. It was basically just Grey Worm on her side. Realistically like 80% of her crew would think her logic is sound and think Tyrion is a hippy idiot who doesn't understand how the world works. Gotta break a few eggs, etc
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User728 posted...

Im fine with you disagreeing with me, but if you arent going to say anything other than this is dumb then you dont need to bother replying at all.

If you aren't going to say anything other than "people who disagree with me are just looking for reasons to whine" then you don't need to say anything at all.

foolm0r0n posted...

Literally yes. If you're willing to kill 100 to save 10000 then you're not far from killing 10000 to save 1000000 in the future generations. That's exactly how Dany justified it this episode.

No... it's not. There was no justification in that way. Just because you read into that doesn't mean that's what was presented.

At best, what we got was "I am going to rule, and if you won't love me, then I'll make people fear me."
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GranzonEx posted...

she destroyed KL to instill fear in the people, they don't love her but at least they'll fear and respect her power now that she's shown it

she was still debating doing it when she heard the bell

I was disappointed with the bell scene overall and lack of insight into her actions, but this was also my feeling given the Jon scene where she chooses fear.

God dammit Jon all you had to do was fuck your aunt and we could have avoided all this.
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HanOfTheNekos posted...

User728 posted...

Im fine with you disagreeing with me, but if you arent going to say anything other than this is dumb then you dont need to bother replying at all.

If you aren't going to say anything other than "people who disagree with me are just looking for reasons to whine" then you don't need to say anything at all.

foolm0r0n posted...

Literally yes. If you're willing to kill 100 to save 10000 then you're not far from killing 10000 to save 1000000 in the future generations. That's exactly how Dany justified it this episode.

No... it's not. There was no justification in that way. Just because you read into that doesn't mean that's what was presented.

At best, what we got was "I am going to rule, and if you won't love me, then I'll make people fear me."

Look at that teenage angst.

Look man, all I did was pointing out that you were being dismissive, which is weird considering you said you disliked episode 3.

"Episode 3 was a mess, but since I liked episode 4, then anyone complaining about it just insufferable and fabricating reasons to complain."

That's why I said it's a dumb point of view.
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500 pour one out for the fallen