Current Events > So any form of masculinity is considered toxic now

(+) Yeah! (+)

Men who think Terry Crews should have stood up for himself are being called toxic. I really don't understand the moral of this situation. What lesson are we teaching the children? Allow yourself to be sexually assualted to farther your career?
---

Victim blaming and attacking one of the few males who shared his story after he has explained why he didn't "defend himself" is pretty toxic.

Of course he could have killed the guy with his bare hands, but that's not the point.

Defending himself would have gotten him blacklisted and sued and it would be far worse for most people in that situation. Instead of focusing on him, focus on the abuser.
---

babyeatermax posted...

This guy

---

"No one ever talks about male sexual harassment!"

"Ugh that guy could have totally defended himself. Pussy."
---

That is a perfect example of toxic masculinity. Flopic.
---

This guy
---

Of all the potentially reasonable arguments you could have pulled out in defense of masculinity, you had to go victim blame a man over a sexual assault.

Biggest facepalm of the day right here
---

Women are becoming the leaders of society, that's just the plan now

If we're gonna support women who attack their sexual assailants we should support men who choose to do the same. Of course, it's up to the victim to decide whether this is the best course of action in their specific situation and people outside of it can only offer advice in hindsight.
---

This is all the result of this fucked up gynocentric society. Yes all masculinity is considered toxic. It's toxic because it's a game only men can win, women cannot beat men at being masculine. They can't be tougher then us, they can't be more independent then us, they can't be more ambitious then us, more courageous, more disciplined, etc. The only choice they have is to demonize what makes men men...in the hopes that men will shun being men.

The truly scary part is it is working to some small degree. More and more men are these emotional, weak, lazy, poor excuses of males. The tricks on the feminists when they realize the "men" they've created they aren't attracted to lol.
---

SpiralDrift posted...

If we're gonna support women who attack their sexual assailants we should support men who choose to do the same. Of course, it's up to the victim to decide whether this is the best course of action in their specific situation and people outside of it can only offer advice in hindsight.

There's a subtle difference in points here though. Consider both responses to the same situation:

"I would have supported you if you attacked him/defended him in that situation"
"You should have attacked/defended against him, then it wouldn't have happened."

The reason people would say offering "advice" in that situation is toxic is because not only does it put the fault at the victim's feet for not handling it in a certain way but it's totally redundant. Hindsight is 20/20 and completely worthless (and insulting) in this situation.
---

pinky0926 posted...

SpiralDrift posted...

If we're gonna support women who attack their sexual assailants we should support men who choose to do the same. Of course, it's up to the victim to decide whether this is the best course of action in their specific situation and people outside of it can only offer advice in hindsight.

There's a subtle difference in points here though. Consider both responses to the same situation:

"I would have supported you if you attacked him/defended him in that situation"
"You should have attacked/defended against him, then it wouldn't have happened."

The reason people would say offering "advice" in that situation is toxic is because not only does it put the fault at the victim's feet for not handling it in a certain way but it's totally redundant. Hindsight is 20/20 and completely worthless (and insulting) in this situation.

It sounds like splitting hairs to me. The gist of the message is the same.
---

Omega Hunter posted...

women cannot beat men at being masculine. They can't be tougher then us, they can't be more independent then us, they can't be more ambitious then us, more courageous, more disciplined, etc.

True colours shining right through there

So to recap, women are not ambitious, courageous, tough or disciplined. That's a man's quality. Gtfo with that 1950s nonsense.
---

Omega Hunter posted...

This is all the result of this fucked up gynocentric society. Yes all masculinity is considered toxic. It's toxic because it's a game only men can win, women cannot beat men at being masculine. They can't be tougher then us, they can't be more independent then us, they can't be more ambitious then us, more courageous, more disciplined, etc. The only choice they have is to demonize what makes men men...in the hopes that men will shun being men.

The truly scary part is it is working to some small degree. More and more men are these emotional, weak, lazy, poor excuses of males. The tricks on the feminists when they realize the "men" they've created they aren't attracted to lol.

You have really warped ideas on pretty much everything.
---

MrPeppers posted...

It sounds like splitting hairs to me. The gist of the message is the same.

I think it's less splitting hairs and fundamentally, entirely different.

I understand if someone is just reflexively trying to understand the situation ("why didn't you do X"), but I don't think they're doing the right thing if they're assuming that the reason the bad thing happened is because of some action/inaction on the part of the victim. Ultimately there was a fucking rapist in the picture and that's who we should focus on, not whether the innocent party wore the wrong kind of dress or didn't immediately escalate to acting violently.
---

Omega Hunter posted...

They can't be tougher then us, they can't be more independent then us, they can't be more ambitious then us, more courageous, more disciplined, etc.

err... excuse you? Just look at Sarah Huckabee Sanders. She's built like a lumberjack and possesses all those traits you speak of.
---

pinky0926 posted...

SpiralDrift posted...

If we're gonna support women who attack their sexual assailants we should support men who choose to do the same. Of course, it's up to the victim to decide whether this is the best course of action in their specific situation and people outside of it can only offer advice in hindsight.

There's a subtle difference in points here though. Consider both responses to the same situation:

"I would have supported you if you attacked him/defended him in that situation"
"You should have attacked/defended against him, then it wouldn't have happened."

The reason people would say offering "advice" in that situation is toxic is because not only does it put the fault at the victim's feet for not handling it in a certain way but it's totally redundant. Hindsight is 20/20 and completely worthless (and insulting) in this situation.

That just makes it bad advice then. Also, it's not just men saying it.
---

Hows it feel to have to repress yourself to fit in?

Lmaoooo
---

pinky0926 posted...

MrPeppers posted...

It sounds like splitting hairs to me. The gist of the message is the same.

I think it's less splitting hairs and fundamentally, entirely different.

I understand if someone is just reflexively trying to understand the situation ("why didn't you do X"), but I don't think they're doing the right thing if they're assuming that the reason the bad thing happened is because of some action/inaction on the part of the victim. Ultimately there was a fucking rapist in the picture and that's who we should focus on, not whether the innocent party wore the wrong kind of dress or didn't immediately escalate to acting violently.

I hope with the Terry Crews situation, more people appreciate that sexual assault doesn't just happen because you're not more physically intimidating than the other person.

Fair enough. I really enjoy civil discourse like this.
---

SpiralDrift posted...

That just makes it bad advice then. Also, it's not just men saying it.

No doubt a lot of women are awful at this too. To me, the "toxic" part is less about masculinity and more about pinning a sexual assault on the victim for not reacting in a certain way.

It's a really odd one to me. If I told you someone broke into my house and stole my possessions nobody questions why it happened or what I should have done to prevent it. No suggestions on how if I had a bank vault door instead of a regular door and a doberman in every room I'd still have my stuff. No one doubts it even happened. They'd just say that was some lowlife and I hope you have insurance. But when someone relates how someone broke into their pants and violated them in the worst way the questions come rolling in like the spanish inquisition. That's the toxic part of the conversation.
---

pinky0926 posted...

SpiralDrift posted...

That just makes it bad advice then. Also, it's not just men saying it.

No doubt a lot of women are awful at this too. To me, the "toxic" part is less about masculinity and more about pinning a sexual assault on the victim for not reacting in a certain way.

Then why not stop calling it toxic masculinity?

pinky0926 posted...

It's a really odd one to me. If I told you someone broke into my house and stole my possessions nobody questions why it happened or what I should have done to prevent it. No suggestions on how if I had a bank vault door instead of a regular door and a doberman in every room I'd still have my stuff. They'd just say that was some lowlife and I hope you have insurance. But when someone relates how someone broke into their pants and violated them in the worst way the questions come rolling in like the spanish inquisition. That's the toxic part of the conversation.

No, I'm pretty sure people will offer up their advice on how to not get robbed again in the future. Get better locks, install an alarm system, etc. If there are preventative measures that can be taken then it's fair to offer that advice.

Does this apply to Crews' situation? Probably not, but maybe in others. For example, if you know that someone has a record of sexual assault and your friend is going to spend time with them you might advise them to take some pepper spray along just in case, because that would be the smart thing to do.
---

SpiralDrift posted...

Then why not stop calling it toxic masculinity?

You are missing the point here. People aren't saying this about sexual assault on women, or to the extent to which they are they are heavily criticized for it.

The issue is that this response is normalized in sexual assault on men, and even readily supported by men, because they are expected to be tough and masculine. The issue is that admitting that you are weak in a situation is a social no-no, so people are conditioned to deny it to their own and other's detriment.
---

SpiralDrift posted...

Then why not stop calling it toxic masculinity?

Did I call it that? But also this:
COVxy posted...

The issue is that this response is normalized in sexual assault on men, and even readily supported by men, because they are expected to be tough and masculine. The issue is that admitting that you are weak in a situation is a social no-no, so people are conditioned to deny it to their own and other's detriment.

pinky0926 posted...

Does this apply to Crews' situation? Probably not, but maybe in others. For example, if you know that someone has a record of sexual assault and your friend is going to spend time with them you might advise them to take some pepper spray along just in case, because that would be the smart thing to do.

I think that's a rather unlikely hypothetical that doesn't quite go far enough to explain the main reason why some people like to offer their laundry list of anything-but-actually-blame-the-rapist ideas on why a sexual assault happened.

Also in your hypothetical I think there's is a difference between advice like "protect yourself just in case" and a comment like "well no wonder he raped you, what did you think was going to happen? This is on you for existing in his space". The first one is about taking precautions, the second is providing worthless advice while at the same time taking the focus away from the actual criminal party here.
---

COVxy posted...

SpiralDrift posted...

Then why not stop calling it toxic masculinity?

You are missing the point here. People aren't saying this about sexual assault on women, or to the extent to which they are they are heavily criticized for it.

The issue is that this response is normalized in sexual assault on men, and even readily supported by men, because they are expected to be tough and masculine. The issue is that admitting that you are weak in a situation is a social no-no, so people are conditioned to deny it to their own and other's detriment.

I don't see how this is any different from telling women to fight back (as in physically) against sexual assault. How is that right but it's not right to tell men to do the same?
---

What do you mean that water is toxic?

All water can't be toxic or else the Earth would be dead.
---

SpiralDrift posted...

I don't see how this is any different from telling women to fight back (as in physically) against sexual assault. How is that right but it's not right to tell men to do the same?

It's not: most people don't tell a rape victim "well you should have fought harder". But to the extent to which they do, the rape victim is usually male.

Women get blamed through promiscuity, which is essentially due to cultural expectation of the other gender.
---

SpiralDrift posted...

I don't see how this is any different from telling women to fight back (as in physically) against sexual assault. How is that right but it's not right to tell men to do the same?

Because "you can fight back if someone tries to assault you" is a very different statement from "lmao why didn't you deck him, are you some kind of pussy?"

No one here is suggesting Terry Crews would have been wrong to get physical, we're just drawing issue with the expectation that rape can't happen to men because men are strong.
---

pinky0926 posted...

Also in your hypothetical I think there's is a difference between advice like "protect yourself just in case" and a comment like "well no wonder he raped you, what did you think was going to happen? This is on you for existing in his space". The first one is about taking precautions, the second is providing worthless advice while at the same time taking the focus away from the actual criminal party here.

Ok, so we're just resorting to outliers to make our points.
---

SpiralDrift posted...

Ok, so we're just resorting to outliers to make our points.

I was logically disseminating your hypothetical, not providing another one.
---

pinky0926 posted...

SpiralDrift posted...

Ok, so we're just resorting to outliers to make our points.

I was logically disseminating your hypothetical, not providing another one.

This whole thing is about a handful of idiots online making idiotic comments that are in no way representative of men in general, but they're being taken as if they are.
---

SpiralDrift posted...

This whole thing is about a handful of idiots online making idiotic comments that are in no way representative of men in general, but they're being taken as if they are.

Right, but it's still enough idiots for it to be a persistent problem.

To go back to the subject of women, and to take a milder example - such as catcalling - if you really fleshed it out with any woman they would have to admit that no, most men are not making inappropriate advances and comments at them as they go about their day. The point is it's enough men doing it often enough for it to be a problem they deal with all the time, every day, for many women any time they step out of the house. And just saying "but not all men" doesn't really help move the conversation forward any. And we would have to admit that this is not a problem men have to deal with really at all, so just dismissing it as "a few crazies" doesn't help either.
---

pinky0926 posted...

SpiralDrift posted...

This whole thing is about a handful of idiots online making idiotic comments that are in no way representative of men in general, but they're being taken as if they are.

Right, but it's still enough idiots for it to be a persistent problem.

To go back to the subject of women, and to take a milder example - such as catcalling - if you really fleshed it out with any woman they would have to admit that no, most men are not making inappropriate advances and comments at them as they go about their day. The point is it's enough men doing it often enough for it to be a problem they deal with all the time, every day, for many women any time they step out of the house. And just saying "but not all men" doesn't really help move the conversation forward any. And we would have to admit that this is not a problem men have to deal with really at all, so just dismissing it as "a few crazies" doesn't help either.

Just curious... do you feel the same way about religious extremism? Wouldn't it be just as valid to say that "but not all [religious denomination] people" doesn't help move the conversation forward? I'm sure you can see the problems with following this line.
---

SpiralDrift posted...

Just curious... do you feel the same way about religious extremism? Wouldn't it be just as valid to say that "but not all [religious denomination] people" doesn't help move the conversation forward? I'm sure you can see the problems with following this line.

Actually I do feel consistently about this. We're going way off topic here but on the subject of Islam as an example, I don't feel that the only problem with the religion is "a few nutjobs", and at the same time I don't feel that pointing out "most Muslims are peaceful lovely people" is helpful either.

Back on topic - my girlfriend deals with at least 1 or 2 instances of it every time she goes out running. That's 4x a week. So basically 10x a week she deals with catcalling. The other day it was 4 drunk guys slurring about her ass, as an example.

It's such a persistent and annoying problem that she plans her running routes and times around it. She avoids pubs and happy hour. She tries to go around parks where other runners are doing the same.

The point is, this is enough of a problem that it affects her life every day in not an indifferent way.

And what really irritates her more than anything is that when she brings up this problem-she's-dealt-with-ever-since-she-grew-breasts in casual conversation with men present, they'll provide their 5 minute hot take on how to resolve it like she doesn't already have an arsenal of strategies at the ready, like the problem is she just hasn't been smart enough/brave enough/tough enough to handle it. These men will give her the entire diatribe of hot tips on how to modify her behaviour but when questioned on the behaviour of the guys actually catcalling, will dismiss it as "lads being lads".

Yeah, I could see all of that being worth complaining about.
---

pinky0926 posted...

SpiralDrift posted...

Just curious... do you feel the same way about religious extremism? Wouldn't it be just as valid to say that "but not all [religious denomination] people" doesn't help move the conversation forward? I'm sure you can see the problems with following this line.

Actually I do feel consistently about this. We're going way off topic here but on the subject of Islam as an example, I don't feel that the only problem with the religion is "a few nutjobs", and at the same time I don't feel that pointing out "most Muslims are peaceful lovely people" is helpful either.

Back on topic - my girlfriend deals with at least 1 or 2 instances of it every time she goes out running. That's 4x a week. So basically 10x a week she deals with catcalling. The other day it was 4 drunk guys slurring about her ass, as an example.

It's such a persistent and annoying problem that she plans her running routes and times around it. She avoids pubs and happy hour. She tries to go around parks where other runners are doing the same.

The point is, this is enough of a problem that it affects her life every day in not an indifferent way.

And what really irritates her more than anything is that when she brings up this problem-she's-dealt-with-ever-since-she-grew-breasts in casual conversation with men present, they'll provide their 5 minute hot take on how to resolve it like she doesn't already have an arsenal of strategies at the ready, like the problem is she just hasn't been smart enough/brave enough/tough enough to handle it. These men will give her the entire diatribe of hot tips on how to modify her behaviour but when questioned on the behaviour of the guys actually catcalling, will dismiss it as "lads being lads".

Yeah, I could see all of that being worth complaining about.

Fair enough on all that. I do think intentions matter, though. The person offering their advice may think they're being helpful even if they're not, and even if it's annoying it's not meant maliciously so I would cut them a bit of slack.

People offering their advice and opinions where it's not needed is just human nature and I don't think it's inherently bad. If it's ill-thought out or actually meant maliciously then yeah, that's bad, but that's usually the exception to the rule and I wouldn't lecture the ones who are actually good spirited about it for the faults of those who weren't.
---

There's nothing wrong with Masculinity / Femininity.

There is something wrong with basic social behavior towards each other as human beings.

Here's some potentially novel concept for some folks:

1) How about we refrain from any "Cat Calling" or "Any form of comments about their appearance / sexiness / attractiveness" towards ANYBODY, EVER!!
Regardless of Gender, Age, Species, Ethnicity. Just DON'T DO IT!!!

2) The same with making fun of people, harassing them, bullying them, making derogatory / snide comments about them!
JUST DON'T DO IT!

3) Didn't any (Parent / Adult / Guardian / Teacher / Relative) teach you that "If you have nothing nice to say about somebody, don't say it at all?"
Otherwise Just keep your words to yourself.

4) If somebody wants a opinion about ___ (e.g. like how they look); only give it to them if they ask for it.
Use tact when giving said opinion towards them.

5) The same applies with keeping your hands to yourself, don't touch ANYTHING unless invited or approved by the person / owner / attendant!

Society would be better off that way IMO.

People need to learn to mind their own business when out in public.
---

Why do we call them toxic chemicals? Some chemicals aren't toxic.
---

SpiralDrift posted...

Fair enough on all that. I do think intentions matter, though. The person offering their advice may think they're being helpful even if they're not, and even if it's annoying it's not meant maliciously so I would cut them a bit of slack.

People offering their advice and opinions where it's not needed is just human nature and I don't think it's inherently bad. If it's ill-thought out or actually meant maliciously then yeah, that's bad, but that's usually the exception to the rule and I wouldn't lecture the ones who are actually good spirited about it for the faults of those who weren't.

I might be a little bit more cynical than you on this - it's true to say that people often have well-intentioned advice even if it's taken the wrong way - but I also think there's a lot of people who give advice just to be heard, or to win the conversation.

I think the true colours come out in those conversations when that advice quickly becomes an argument when challenged. If someone is really trying to help why would they lose their cool and press the point if the help isn't helpful?

Back to the heart of the conversation. With all of this stuff, I think us guys can get really defensive about it because we take it personally. We see it as an attack on our character or moral compass or principles, when really it should be a productive conversation about how to improve the collective behaviour of men and future men with awareness and education.

To simplify the catcall conversation. If you're not aware that it's not appreciated, you should be. If you are aware but you don't understand why, you can ask and find out. And if you are aware and you do understand but you still refuse to modify your behaviour because treating other people better is somehow an inconvenience to you, then don't be surprised if someone calls you toxic.
---

hockeybub89 posted...

Why do we call them toxic chemicals? Some chemicals aren't toxic.

This is a pretty good stand in for this line of argument lol.
---

pinky0926 posted...

I might be a little bit more cynical than you on this - it's true to say that people often have well-intentioned advice even if it's taken the wrong way - but I also think there's a lot of people who give advice just to be heard, or to win the conversation.

I think the true colours come out in those conversations when that advice quickly becomes an argument when challenged. If someone is really trying to help why would they lose their cool and press the point if the help isn't helpful?

This is true but I think it's just human nature. We see it play out on all levels of human society. That's not to say that it's not bad. It just is what is.

But I'm not excusing it just because of that. It's like if my cat tries to get the food on my plate, I'll shoo it away but I'm not gonna get too upset about it since it's just being a cat. It's undesirable behavior that should definitely be discouraged, but at the same time it's understandable.
---

#NotAllChemicals
---

SpiralDrift posted...

This is true but I think it's just human nature.

Everything is human nature, given the whole being natural and not supernatural thing. Rape is just human nature. Murder is just human nature. Etc...

But why do you get so defensive when a problematic behavior is labeled?
---

SpiralDrift posted...

This is true but I think it's just human nature. We see it play out on all levels of human society. That's not to say that it's not bad. It just is what is.

But I'm not excusing it just because of that. It's like if my cat tries to get the food on my plate, I'll shoo it away but I'm not gonna get too upset about it since it's just being a cat. It's undesirable behavior that should definitely be discouraged, but at the same time it's understandable.

The question to ask here is "is a grown man catcalling women and making them feel uncomfortable as uncontrollable an instinct as the instinct to eat food is in a non-self aware barely domesticated animal?"
---

I thought Terry Crew assaulted someone after reading the OP. Glad to see that's not the case. I was like, nooooo not Terry.

But the fact that he was assaulted isn't a much better outcome. This really sucks.
---

pinky0926 posted...

SpiralDrift posted...

This is true but I think it's just human nature. We see it play out on all levels of human society. That's not to say that it's not bad. It just is what is.

But I'm not excusing it just because of that. It's like if my cat tries to get the food on my plate, I'll shoo it away but I'm not gonna get too upset about it since it's just being a cat. It's undesirable behavior that should definitely be discouraged, but at the same time it's understandable.

The question to ask here is "is a grown man catcalling women and making them feel uncomfortable as uncontrollable an instinct as the instinct to eat food is in a non-self aware barely domesticated animal?"

Well I wouldn't defend that so much as I might defend someone offering their advice on how to stop it. The advice may be useless and annoying but if it's not meant maliciously then it's understandable as a typical human reaction and not worth getting too upset about.

COVxy posted...

SpiralDrift posted...

This is true but I think it's just human nature.

Everything is human nature, given the whole being natural and not supernatural thing. Rape is just human nature. Murder is just human nature. Etc...

But why do you get so defensive when a problematic behavior is labeled?

We're talking about two different things. What I'm talking about is mostly just a reflexive action and while it can be annoying is actually harmless. I mean it basically amounts to white noise banter. I wouldn't put such things in the same category as anything physically destructive, let alone rape or murder.
---