Board 8 > SaveEstelle/LeonhartFour in Different Houses: Life is Frasier Edition [SELF]

(+) Yeah! (+)

Nah, Teddie and especially Yosuke also dodge that trap really well. The next party member does too, as long as you ignore some of the supplementary materials.
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I think that's missing the point of Yukiko and Rise's character arcs tbqh.

Character Arc/S-Link spoilers: Neither of them "roll back," you're misunderstanding what their issues were if you think that. For Yukiko, her problem was feeling that she had no control over her life and everything had been decided for her. After her Shadow fight she gains the willpower to explore her options and take some control in her life. It just turns out that in doing so she discovers that ultimately she really did want to stay with the Inn. But unlike before it's not because "she never had a choice" it's that she genuinely chose it on her own.

For Rise, what depressed her was the idea that people didn't like or see her as a person, but her "fake" idol persona. As she progresses with her S-Link she comes to the realization that that persona wasn't "fake" it was just another side of her - and a side she did enjoy and was good at. But she needed to go through the process of trying to separate them and the consequences that followed to realize the flaw in her thinking.

You can dislike how they developed, but saying they went backwards is just wrong IMO.
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Okay, I can see that from the latter characters perspective, especially as a former performer myself. Not sure I like it very much but I get your point.

I dont get the impression that the first one is accurate though. It still felt more like a resignation than an empowered decision. I feel like its a Japanese cultural thing.
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trdl23 posted...

Rise has the same problem as Yukiko (another of Leons faves) in that her social link rolls ack so much of her initial character development. With Yukiko, it was a total withdrawal of ambition despite her clear aptitude academically. She caves to the very pressure that she had lashed out against. With Rise, its getting back on the same treadmill that got her miserable in the first place, But this time itll be different. Right.

Dont get me wrong; even the lesser of P4s main cast are still quite good. But they are lesser.

Yeah, you're totally wrong on both counts, Yukiko especially. The entire point of Yukiko's S. Link is that she wanted the choice to be her own, even if she ultimately ended up doing what others hoped she would do all along. Like, the fact that you view staying in Inaba as "lacking ambition" is the wrong perspective (and it's kind of insulting to me personally because I'm doing something with my life some people would view as "lesser" and below what I could "potentially" do, but this is what I love to do and want to do. It's not a lack of ambition). Just because Yukiko could do other things doesn't mean it's wrong for her to stay at the inn. She didn't cave into pressure at all. She chooses to stay precisely because the pressure to stay isn't there anymore.

Rise's S. Link is her learning to reconcile the fact that all the different "versions" of her are all part of the same person. The fact that she couldn't is why she left, and that's why they manifest themselves as several different personalities in her dungeon instead of just a single Shadow. Rise becomes comfortable with being both "Rise" and "Risette" because she recognizes they're both her. So yeah, in both cases, the fact that they ultimately choose to go back to what they wanted to leave doesn't roll back their character development at all. They just find new reasons for doing what they ultimately really wanted to do all along.

Like, people have to step away from what they love and try to discover new reasons or re-discover their old reasons for doing it all the time. This isn't some Japanese culture thing.
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The criticism I'd level there is that it feels cliche more than anything. But I mean, Yukiko does go into some research/actions towards other career choices. I never got resignation out of her decision. I can understand if you think she "gave up" on her other job searches too quickly because from our perspective it happened entirely off-screen but that's not the same as resignation in my mind. I mean, to me that implies she's still harboring resentment about the outcome. But her S-Link explicitly gives her the option of subverting the inn and she forcefully rejects that and when confronted with the opportunity to damage the inn (and by extension "free" herself from it) she realizes what it really means to her. Yukiko's issue was never that she didn't want to run the inn, it was that she felt she had no choice in her future and attached the resentment stemming from that to the inn.

I think I sorta see where you're coming from here, I just think you're attributing your dislike for the outcome.

To expand on Rise, even though you said you sorta agreed. I feel she generally went through this progression. Pre-Investigation Team Rise saw her idol persona as a fake, phony, manufactured personality that she presented to the public. Her depression came from the fact that she felt people only saw Risette and not Rise, and furthermore they only liked Risette. Upon facing her shadow she comes to realize that "Risette" isn't entirely fake and phony. Aspects of that personality are "real" to her. Nonetheless she still sees it as something separate from her. A performance. The S-Link follows up on this where the lesson she thinks she's learned is that since Risette was just a performance, she can safely discard it and live fully as Rise, with people that appreciate her. What the S-Link explores is that Risette was really more than a performance, it was part of her. It takes things like Nanako's innocent inability to distinguish the two as different as well as her manager's comments once she quits to have her fully come to that realization and to fully accept that side of herself.
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oh i see leon mostly had that all covered
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well it's okay I largely retreaded what you said in my post too because I didn't look at the next page before I posted that so I think we mostly covered our bases even if we were a bit redundant
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oh right I got so caught up in my Yukiko fanboyism that I forgot to mention that I finished Chapter 4 in Trails the 3rd

The fortress was a bit of a let-down after how good the first two parts were, but hey, we got Agate back, complete with touching reunion with Tita (and people uncomfortably shipping them and saying the age gap is part of the appeal). Then Ries returns in time to try to save everyone from the boss, only for Kevin to have to use his Stigma to save her, too. He gets a new S-Craft, too, and the game automatically sets it as his default one, which I did not appreciate! I tried it out though, and it's pretty good. I think I'd rather have Grail Sphere if I need an S-Craft in a pinch though. After we beat the boss, the Lord of Nonsense reappears and taunts us some more. Kevin tells him to take off his mask, and he teases him some more. Apparently, he suspects he knows who's underneath that mask. Could this be a Shadow Hearts situation and the person below the mask is Kevin himself?!

Then we get some more background of how Kevin becomes the Fifth Dominion after Rufina dies. We haven't quite gone into detail on what happened to her, but I imagine we'll cover that at some point. Afterward, we finally get Estelle back, but Kevin promptly collapses. Joshua suspects that it's the result of a Stigma, and Ries explains how Stigmas work, that every member of the twelve Dominions has one (since it's partly what qualifies them to be one), and how Weissmann stole stuff from the church when he was a bishop, which is how he was able to craft an imitation of one onto Joshua. Now Ries takes the lead with Estelle as her sidekick. There's a Moon Door waiting for me with both Joshua and Estelle, which I imagine will be HYPE, but that'll have to wait until later.

I also did the Star Door that you needed twenty recipes to unlock. Playing as the Ravens was terrible because they all kinda suck, both as characters and as combatants. So many game overs. At least we got some good Agate stuff in the process. That was definitely the worst of the Star Doors so far.
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Trails 3: Oh man, the end of Chapter 4 fight is so hype. Best S-Craft Incantation right there. Best S-Craft too. mah boi kevin gettin serious. Also Crimson Stigma (the battle theme there) is great for setting the mood. Grail Sphere is more useful as a break, yeah. but oh my god spear of loa so cool.

And yeah, Raven door the worst door. On the other hand, I appreciate that Trails even cares enough to develop those guys. Agate obviously the star though.
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Trails 3: Yeah the Raven door is kinda bad. I think that's the worst that they get though, unless you really hate one of the minigames in the Sun(?) doors for some reason.

I also kept Kevin on Grail Sphere because it's pretty useful as a backup in case you screw something up. His stigma is pretty cool though.
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I do have a follow-up about Yukiko that Ill post when I get home (hopefully). I think Ive come around on Rise though. Thanks for the insight.
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trdl23 posted...

I do have a follow-up about Yukiko that Ill post when I get home (hopefully)

I'll look forward to it.
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For Yukiko, I don't think there's anything wrong with her choice, in general. But in the grand scheme of Japanese media, it's sadly too common for women not to be super ambitious. Would've been more progressive to have her choose something grander.
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I guess, but I still think judging this from the perspective of "ambition" isn't really what Yukiko's S. Link is all about to begin with. Like, Yukiko is being rebellious, not ambitious. She doesn't have a goal other than just the vague mindset of wanting to distance herself from the inn and from Inaba.

and again speaking from a personal perspective I think saying what Yukiko chooses isn't "ambitious" or "grand" is a bit unfair
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Yeah, I don't disagree with you at all. I didn't dislike it or anything, just wasn't a huge fan.
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Man, that episode of Frasier that Michael Keaton guest stars in is so good. It plays a long game with a total subversion at the end.
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I was randomly browsing Netflix checking out their anime, and I see that they have the Persona 3 movie on there...but only the second one. That's unhelpful.
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Yeah, it's been like that for a long time and I have no idea why. I know because I had the same reaction when I saw it.
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I still don't know why they never dubbed it.

Well, they never dubbed that P4 Golden anime either, but that one was terrible anyway. I'm assuming/hoping this P5 anime will get a dub at some point.
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Took too long at work, then stuff happened, then more stuff happened. Sorry I didn't deliver tonight.
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In Trails the 3rd, I completed Estelle's Sun Door and the Estelle/Joshua Moon Door. All the fishing got kind of tedious after a while, especially when we got to the 15-round one, but I still won them all on the first try. Is the Fishing Baron supposed to be bad at fishing? Or maybe I just got lucky because Estelle destroyed him. The Moon Door was pretty nice. It was cool to get to see some interaction between Estelle and Joshua as kids.

Equipment is becoming absurdly expensive, which is kinda dumb considering I don't even have a regular source of income like you do with Bracer requests in FC and SC. I'm just having to sell off a bunch of sepith. Thankfully, sepith is rather easy to come by thanks to the combined efforts of Josette's remote ability and the Sepith Vein quartz, but still, I'd like to be able to use that to buy new quartz, too!
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I gave up on the fishing thing after a minute or two. Fishing in RPGs is dumb.
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I've fished more in RPGs in the last two years than I have in my entire life prior to that between Trails, FFXV, Persona 5, and even a Persona 4 replay thrown in for good measure. Trails at least keeps it simple and doesn't actually force you to reel it in or anything.
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Trails 3: The Estelle/Joshua Moon Door is so good. Especially when you get to pick what Estelle does in town lmao. But overall it's just a really nice door.
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Ughhhhhh why do these people have to call me on Sunday and make me miss Tanaka's Amazing Commodities
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Ughhhhhh why do these people have to call me on Sunday and make me miss Tanaka's Amazing Commodities

I mean you don't have to go with them...!

also is Tanaka not available in the evenings too? I don't remember
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also I guess I have finally "arrived"

I got a random PM from the Preston impersonator this morning
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wow lucky
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LeonhartFour posted...

I mean you don't have to go with them...!

Well, the guide is telling me to, so I assume I need to to rank up the next time I hang out with the person?

LeonhartFour posted...

also is Tanaka not available in the evenings too? I don't remember

Nope :(
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Bummer. I know P5 expanded the range for its shopping channel, but I couldn't remember if P4 was just Sunday morning only or not.
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In Trails the 3rd, I insist on winning this Star Door battle without waiting until I have anti-Petrify equipment (which I did find later on in the dungeon and the shop now sells), and I eventually succeed through sheer force of will. My reward is getting to learn more about the Epstein Company and orbments in general, which was kinda boring, but whatever. Later on, we're surprised to find another sealing stone and even more surprised to find Richard (like the characters, I have a hard time trying not to call him "Colonel" anymore) is the one inside. I guess we might still have some brand new party members to go, after all! Some characters have teased that maybe we'll find Cassius at some point, but I personally kinda doubt we'll be so lucky unless he just makes a last boss cameo or something, swooping in to save the day at the last minute as usual. And of course, he'll know the Lord of Nonsense and this Schwarzritter dude, as well as the hermit ghost because he's Cassius Bright.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Bummer. I know P5 expanded the range for its shopping channel, but I couldn't remember if P4 was just Sunday morning only or not.

Golden... might have? Can't recall if I'm confusing it with P5 though.

Trails 3: surprise richard appearance. I like the dungeon theme in Chapter 5 too.
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LeonhartFour posted...

trdl23 posted...

I do have a follow-up about Yukiko that Ill post when I get home (hopefully)

I'll look forward to it.

Okay, let me address a few of the points that were brought up:

RE: Her not "damaging" the inn -- of course she wasn't going to damage it, it's still been her parents' livelihood and passion for most of their adult lives. You don't just try to ruin a place your family loves because you don't want to work there. That's ridiculous. She's not a monster.

RE: "Lacking ambition" -- first off, staying in Inaba is not an inherently bad thing. The game is very clear about that! For example, it makes perfect sense that Kanji sticks around, given his arc. His skill could probably get him anywhere he wants to go, but he's happy where he is. (I can't remember Chie's all that well besides wanting to become a cop, but I think she stays too?) He desires it. But Yukiko is only doing it for the people around her, not for herself. She sees leaving as a "betrayal" of them. She's doing it out of a sense of obligation, not personal desire. I can't help but see it as another cage she's walking back into -- this one is just prettier and more comfortable.

And yes, the theme of the game is "you're made more whole by the bonds you share with others," but that doesn't preclude autonomy and self-sufficiency, the latter of which she explicitly relinquishes toward the end. Her initial impulse may just have been to run away with her "prince," and that's clearly not healthy. But even as I just went through her S Link again, I can barely sense any passion. She may not have been forced onto the rails anymore, but she put herself back on those rails because she's worried about the effect it'll have on people who are relying on her. She didn't ask them to rely on her. They just expect to.
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I'm not sure what to tell you.

A lot of things you're saying are done explicitly I don't think happened at all. You're reading your own opinion into them which... is not what explicit means. Again, if you don't like that ultimately Yukiko's decision falls in line with the societal expectation, I think that's fine. I'm not saying you have to like it. Honestly I'd probably prefer if she chose to left Inaba simply because I think it's a slightly more compelling direction. However, I just don't see how you're getting that her decision was made because of that expectation.

Is there a scenario in which she could have chosen to remain at the Inn that wouldn't have been that for you? If so, what would it look like? Because I've been getting the impression that there kinda isn't for you.
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Well, I admit that I wouldn't like her staying at the inn at all due to my own personal values, but I'm not quite enough of a jackass to say that's the reason I don't like the arc.

If she had focused on going through some of the basics of management and found she actually liked the work, hey, good on her. I'm not going to hold it against her if it's something she genuinely enjoys, even though I wouldn't do it in her shoes. But there wasn't a hint of passion for the job. Just for her family and her staff. It's admirable that she cares about them, but instead we get this kind of learned helplessness. 3 of the 10 scenes are about how awful her cooking is, which sets up how her staff helps her. This is nice and very feel-good; no problem with it inherently. But there's never a triumphant moment when she actually cooks something well for once on her own. I get that it would contradict the deadly-omelette scene, but still, I think it also implies that she could never be self-sufficient, so she might as well give up. And again, in Rank 10 she flat-out says she's not going the self-sufficient route anymore. Maybe that's a translation quirk, but as far as I know, I'm not putting words in her mouth.

Having gone through the S Link again, I suppose it isn't societal/cultural expectation that shoved her back on the rails but rather the feeling that she owes her adult life to the people who supported her through childhood. I just can't get behind that.
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trdl23 posted...

But there's never a triumphant moment when she actually cooks something well for once on her own

Yes there is. Rank 10 Friend Route.

She also explicitly states she's going to continue studying for job licenses and cooking. I'd also take issue with your portrayal of the self-sufficient thing. What Yukiko says is "If I struck out on my own, I know I would have regretted it. I wanted to become completely self-sufficient. But I think I was being too presumptuous." I think an equally fair way of reading that is that she's reconsidered the idea of relying on her family and friends as a negative. She originally felt doing so prevented her from being able to make decisions on her own and was thus a weakness she wanted to overcome, but now she no longer thinks it's a bad thing to accept help from them.

And again, my part in this is simply that Yukiko's character development doesn't go backwards. That's the claim of yours that got me involved in this. You can hate her development and I wouldn't have an issue, I just think the idea that she regressed as a character is just wrong.
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That's fair. I was looking at the destination as backwards without considering the journey (however much I disliked it) getting there. She also never goes back to being co-dependent with Chie, which is what true regression would have been.
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Yeah, if you dislike Yukiko's S. Link because of values dissonance, that's totally fine. I could point out a few instances of that for myself, but the issue here has always been for me and xp that it's not a regression.
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In random news, Steins;Gate 0's first episode came out today.

It was really good. An actual adaptation, done by someone who knows how to do adaptations... I am genuinely confused why only Steins;Gate seems to be able to get this treatment, out of all the Scientific;Adventure sub-series, but by this point it's clearly true.

My one complaint is that (minor spoilers if you haven't read the VN) the episode feels like it ended literally ten seconds too early (if this is Okabe's reaction to hearing the word "Amadeus," what's he going to do in, well, ten seconds?), but that's so minor.
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Was Robotics;Notes a bad adaptation? I'd heard it was fairly competent.
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It's fairly competent, yeah. Certainly better than C;H and C;C.

But there's just such a huge jump in quality between R;N and the S;G adaptations.

edit: C;C also kinda fits into that boat, since it's probably the best job anyone could have done compressing that work into 12 episodes. But yeah. *shrug*
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I liked Robotics;Notes but I'm not familiar with the source material so I'm not really sure what they changed. Robotics;Notes being the only other Semicolon series to get 2 cours probably helped as well.
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Oh nice, I'll have to be on the lookout for the SimulDub for SG0 soon.
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I totally forgot Bridgette Wilson was on an episode of Frasier. She was one of my biggest childhood crushes back in the day.
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Even five-year old me knew she was one piece of ace
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actually I feel like a lot of my childhood crushes fell off the face of the earth at some point before I grew up

Alicia Silverstone was another big one
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I've linked to these before, but I forgot to check for new ones for a while, so this one's like a month and a half old already (which is ancient history in internet terms). Anyway, the most recent Found in Translation video for FFVII was excellent. He spends most of it on Cosmo Canyon, although there's some stuff on Gongaga, too, but either way, it's really interesting if you're into this sort of thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0hF6BOAEJM" data-time="
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Okay, I just finished a short story in Hyouka where Hotaro explains to Chitanda the origin story of his famous motto. That was a really good story and not at all what I would've expected the impetus for his motto to be. Looks like there's just one more short story left and I'll be done with the sixth and final book.
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Looks like the SimulDub for Steins;Gate 0 doesn't start until the 30th and the one for FMP IV doesn't start until May 6th

that's not very "simul" imhotbqh
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Are you planning to wait or watch the sub?
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