Board 8 > The Phantom Menace is somehow WORSE than I remembered.

(+) Yeah! (+)

man I think I need subtitles just to understand half of what Jar Jar is saying

Jakyl25 posted...

Palpatine

Yeah, that's what I've always thought, but it's kinda unclear.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

And here's a question that's been on my mind for a while, and I'll ask it here before finally remembering to Google it.

Why do Sith Lords WANT a powerful apprentice?

I mean, it's basically understood that one of the master's apprentices is eventually going to overthrow them and take over. It's kind of a twisted father/son relationship to ensure the long term survival/victory of the Sith.
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man I forgot all about this "Anakin doesn't have a father" throwaway line

could you make it any more obvious that he's supposed to be a Messiah archetype
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But why would any individual sith WANT to do that?

In all of the Star Wars content I've consumed over the years, It's almost always the case that the apprentice kills the master.

Sith are self motivated. Why would they care about something like the "long term survival / victory of the Sith". Their entire premise is that they act solely for their own dark desires.
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Do they live on in the Force like Jedi?
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CoolCly posted...

But why would any individual sith WANT to do that?

In all of the Star Wars content I've consumed over the years, It's almost always the case that the apprentice kills the master.

Sith are self motivated. Why would they care about something like the "long term survival / victory of the Sith". Their entire premise is that they act solely for their own dark desires.

I mean, this only works if deep down the sith aren't completely 100% selfish and care about the greater evil.

...Star Wars doesn't really pull this off convincingly because it's shallow and its villains are cartoonish. If you want an example where this type of dynamic actually works, see the relationship between Baron Harkonnen and his nephew/heir Feyd in Dune (novel version).
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Jakyl25 posted...

Do they live on in the Force like Jedi?

Kind of, but it's weird.
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The Sith want powerful apprentices because having powerful guys working for you is really useful. They don't worry about the whole getting overthrown thing because they're too arrogant to think it could ever happen to themselves; the rule was obviously meant for older inferior Sith Lords who weren't as awesome and didn't deserve to rule, not the current Sith Lord who is the best ever.
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okay finished with Episode I

I can honestly say that I didn't hate it but man it was boring

I think I identified most with Jabba falling asleep during the pod race. Also, Darth Maul might have given the best acting performance in the movie. To be honest, I've always kinda liked the guy, and I'm a sucker for the lightsaber duel at the end, say what you will about the choreography. The fact that he has literally three lines might be to his benefit in these movies. By the way, the Jedi Council: Total jerks, even Yoda. What the heck, man.
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The Jedi being awful philosophically is something Lucas never understood and its kind of alarming
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LeonhartFour posted...

also who or what IS the Phantom Menace supposed to be?

I think it's supposed to refer to multiple people. Like "Return of the Jedi".
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Jakyl25 posted...

The Jedi being awful philosophically is something Lucas never understood and its kind of alarming

I rewatched Attack of the Clones out of this just because I was bored and feeling hateful to myself. Dooku would have been far more interesting if he actually was a rogue jedi opposing the emperor instead of just evil. Everything had to be black and white for no reason.
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darth maul is the boba fett of the prequels. both characters with potential who get killed off before we got to know them.

at least they brought maul back later, though.
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The Phantom Menace is the Trade Federation dudes, c'mon

It's about it being a smokescreen so palps can begin his rise to power
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Jakyl25 posted...

The Jedi being awful philosophically is something Lucas never understood and its kind of alarming

i think it's pretty clear that the prequels are about exposing the issues with jedi governance, at the very least?

LeonhartFour posted...

Also, Darth Maul might have given the best acting performance in the movie. To be honest, I've always kinda liked the guy, and I'm a sucker for the lightsaber duel at the end, say what you will about the choreography.

my fave scene in the movie is darth maul taking off the cloak to reveal his horns, then lighting the lightsaber on both ends

hnnng
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

The Phantom Menace is the Trade Federation dudes, c'mon

It's about it being a smokescreen so palps can begin his rise to power

Right, which makes Palpatine the PHANTOM menace
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SeabassDebeste posted...

i think it's pretty clear that the prequels are about exposing the issues with jedi governance, at the very least?

In what way? No one but Sith ever seem to have any problems with them.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

i think it's pretty clear that the prequels are about exposing the issues with jedi governance, at the very least?

To a reasonable person yes

I feel like theyre internally trying to get the Jedi rules over as proper. Look, emotion ruined Anakin! Clearly it was RIGHT not to let him love!

I really really dont get the sense that Lucas sees it any deeper than that, even if its super easy to read it more maturely
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

The Phantom Menace is the Trade Federation dudes, c'mon

It's about it being a smokescreen so palps can begin his rise to power

how is the clearly visible enemy of the movie a phantom
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but yeah the Jedi and their ways aren't really viewed as problematic to anyone but the Sith

like Anakin saying "FROM MY POINT OF VIEW THE JEDI ARE EVIL" is meant to be an absurd statement

maybe if the Council had held onto their insistence that Anakin shouldn't be trained and Obi-Wan did it anyway, although by the end, you could use the argument that the Council was right
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Remember, Only a Sith deals in absolutes was written unironically.
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even though no one was more absolutist in RotJ than Yoda and Obi-Wan that Vader absolutely could not be turned back to the light

Luke is the only true Jedi
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I see we've eclipsed "true fan" debate with "true Jedi"
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I anticipate Episode VIII will only further prove me right
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LeonhartFour posted...

I anticipate Episode VIII will only further prove me right

I'm interested in seeing how you react to Luke's arc. Mark Hamil reportedly hated the direction they take him.
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That's been seriously blown out of proportion courtesy of viral YouTube videos like "MARK HAMILL ***** ON THE NEW STAR WARS MOVIE" or what the heck ever that big one was. He worked with Johnson to fine-tune certain angles and came to respect and understand his arc in the new movie.
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yeah if I'm being honest I'm kind of skeptical based on what I've seen of him in the trailers

I already didn't like in Episode VII that he just became a recluse (even if it did inspire that great Very Lonely Luke Twitter account); I don't want him just to be Obi-Wan 2.0.
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Well, if he was Obi-Wan 2.0, he would be pining for Nicole Kidman in a musical.
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We've had some fun earlier in the week but now it's time to get down to the real question: what's the best lightsaber duel of ALL TIME? Get your vote in!

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/76095925


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You know, now that I think about it, perhaps my biggest problem with Episode I's writing is that the sense of humor is just so kiddy. Jar Jar Binks has no reason to exist (at least in this movie) other than to be a source of cheap laughs for kids. I don't think I laughed at all the entire movie. Not to say I watch Star Wars for the humor, but the OT has a good number of laughs, and I'm in the middle of watching Episode VII, and the comedic writing is so much better than anything in Episode I.
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okay I finished Episode VII

yep that's a good movie
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Ewoks blowing up storm troopers with logs and boulders already strayed too far into the kiddy territory for me.
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but at least the jokes weren't kiddy

that's much more offensive

like C-3PO is low key funny (and pretty good) in RotJ
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C3PO is my god
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kevwaffles posted...

In what way? No one but Sith ever seem to have any problems with them.

Theres an entire separatist movement that seems to have a problem with them. The prequels just kind of gloss over this because they are unable to tell a side of the story that doesnt involve the antagonists just being outright evil.

The prequels had all the potential in the world to make an interesting story behind all of this but all the life in the storyline seems to be sucked out of it to glorify the jedi and point the finger at the evil guy.
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You realize I was responding to a claim specifically about the prequels' portrayal of the Jedi, right?

Also the movement was literally led by Sith, so...yeah.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Not to say I watch Star Wars for the humor, but the OT has a good number of laughs,

true. it's still amazing to me that ANH and TPM were supposedly written and directed by the same guy.

we went from "boring conversation anyway" to jar jar stepping in poo.
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Why is this topic 29 pages long?

Because your site settings are objectively awful.
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pjbasis posted...

C3PO is my god

it's against his programming to impersonate a deity

(Luke's face in the background when he says that is the best part)
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I've been thinking of moving on to Star Wars as the next big franchise I'm re-visiting, following The Lord of the Rings, Terminator (first two only), and Indiana Jones (watched first two, going to skip fourth one). So far I'm thinking of only watching the original trilogy paying any of the other films a visit only if I'm curious about backstory/what happens next.

That's just the vibe I get: that the original trilogy is its own self-contained story and everything else is basically just an offshoot.
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Jeff Zero posted...

I see we've eclipsed "true fan" debate with "true Jedi"

the only way the 'prophecy' at the core of the series makes any sense is if you think the old jedi order kinda sucked, and the jedi had lost their way by being too dispassionate

so anakin brought 'balance' by wiping the slate clean and allowing luke to start over. granted, this is all wiped away by the sequels, so who knows.
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Don't believe everything you're foretold.
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Humor -- real wit, even -- exists in 4 through 7 and R1 and it's definitely a good reason to watch those movies. I mean, yeah, I'd stop short at pitching them strictly because they can be funny. But man, the older I get, the funnier 5 becomes. (In a good way.)

banananor posted...

Jeff Zero posted...

I see we've eclipsed "true fan" debate with "true Jedi"

the only way the 'prophecy' at the core of the series makes any sense is if you think the old jedi order kinda sucked, and the jedi had lost their way by being too dispassionate

so anakin brought 'balance' by wiping the slate clean and allowing luke to start over. granted, this is all wiped away by the sequels, so who knows.

The prophecy is core to the prequels in which it's introduced and a big noisy never-explained mess I wish didn't exist and always forget about by the time Darth Vader boards Leia's ship, heh. But eh. Yeah. If it were done ten times more competently I'd have similar thoughts and interpretations as you do. I mean I guess I still do but I just don't even think about it once I get to the good movies.
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I thought Lucas had said balance to the Force = No more Sith, as further evidence of his Jedi blind spot
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I rewatched TFA last night. Good movie, but yeah, I feel the two main criticisms (the fact that it's "safe" and that Rey is too perfect) have legs to stand on. I give the film originality points for Finn's character and story - I think it's the first time we ever see a bad guy defect.

Rey is far too big a Mary Sue, though, and I noticed that more this time around. She saves Finn multiple times, shows up Han Solo in his own ship, and learns Force Persuade and Force Kinesis ON HER OWN... like three hours after discovering that the Jedi and Luke Skywalker aren't a fairy tale. By my recollection, the only time she was aided away from danger was when she first met Finn; he heard the buzzing of a TIE fighter and directed her to run, and even then, she escaped unscathed while he got his ass knocked out lol.

Contrast that to Luke in ANH, who needed everyone's help - from Obi-Wan, to Han, to Leia, to the droids, to Wedge - in order to succeed. ANH's cast was truly a team, which is why they were all so memorable. TFA has no team; it's "Rey Saves the Day" for two hours. Perfect characters belong in video games (Link says heeeeey), not as much in movies.

That said, the only scene I found actually insulting was the cool-down after Han's death, where Leia chose to mourn her husband with a girl she's known for one day and not his BEST FRIEND FOR THE PAST 40 YEARS. Thank you for making a structured Star Wars film, J.J. Abrams, but screw you for doing Chewie like that.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Thank you for making a structured Star Wars film, J.J. Abrams, but screw you for doing Chewie like that.

the fact that Chewie got a direct hit on a guy who was able to hold a blaster shot in midair for minutes compensates for that

best moment of the entire movie
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My big problem with Rey, moreso than her Mary Sueness and one that I think isn't really brought up much, is that she doesn't really have a reason to be there. Not really. She kinda gets strongarmed into all her involvement by being swept up by events going on around her, and doesn't really have much of a bond with any of the main characters.

Contrast with Luke who at the very least knew Old Ben, has established interest in the droids and the Leia message, motivation to go against the empire directly with them destroying the moisture farm-- and more of a choice to be involved in general. I felt there was just a much better hook for him to be involved than there was for Rey who is sorta just there because what other characters were doing all but forces her to be there.

Rey is basically just Vaan who randomly is OP for no reason.
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It's no worse than Leia consoling Luke about Obi-Wan who he knew for like a day after she lost her home planet.
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LeonhartFour posted...

the fact that Chewie got a direct hit on a guy who was able to hold a blaster shot in midair for minutes compensates for thatbest moment of the entire movie

A fair point. Enraged Chewie did WORK.

But I think they could have played on that ten minutes later and show his rage lead to grief. Instead, they used it as another opportunity to make Rey the center of everyone's universe.

I think the reason that comparatively little focus was given to other characters (and their emotions) is one of the reasons I actually... can't believe I'm gonna say this... felt much more of an emotional punch from ROTS than I did from anything in TFA, including Han's final scene. I'm actually not sure which of those two movies I prefer now - probably TFA, but it's a LOT closer than it was two years ago.
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