Board 8 > The Phantom Menace is somehow WORSE than I remembered.

(+) Yeah! (+)

The acting in RotJ is better but I would argue the plot without the Vader/Luke/Palps stuff is actually worse than Phantom Menace

I mean it'd still be better but on the same tier I think would be fair. RotS would be solidly above it to me.
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The biggest problem I've had with 7 is that it's just a renamed Empire with a renamed Super Death Star, but the rest of the movie works well for me. I didn't mind the Death Star in Return of the Jedi. The rebels are pushing back and they learn that the Empire is trying again without the flaw so they have to go now before it's an unstoppable threat. The space battles alone are amazing and the three paths coalesce into a really grand finish.

It's definitely weakest of the the OT, with a middle portion that is very much forgettable and some of the worst "new edition" edits, but I'd still rate it a better movie than all of the PT and maybe VII. They both have their flaws and the successes.
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I'm gonna got out on a limb and suggest most Ep1 problems lie with "that kid".
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Child Ani was very poorly done, yeah. Getting a kid character to work out when they are interacting only with adult characters seems very tough in general. Natalie Portman fucking nailed it in The Professional, coincidentally.
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Hardcore_Adult posted...

I'm gonna got out on a limb and suggest most Ep1 problems lie with "that kid".

Ani's a good scapegoat, but no, the movie is boring and terrible all around with wooden performances, bland characters, and a story that's all about tax plans and bureaucracy.
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Kid Anakin is probably the main thing that pushes the movie to "generically bland and a waste of time" into "pretty bad"

Like without the kid and elements of his subplot stinking it up you'd remove most of the actual grating stuff about the movie. Still wouldn't be good but no one would be considering AotC over it imo.
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What this topic is telling me is that Star Wars isn't actually good outside of Episode 4 & 5

I can get on board with that sentiment
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KamikazePotato posted...

What this topic is telling me is that Star Wars isn't actually good outside of Episode 4 & 5

I can get on board with that sentiment

7 is good too.

still haven't seen rogue one dammit.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

7 is good too.

nah
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I'd probably be disappointed in 7 had the PT not existed (thus, with it being the first OT sequel). Instead, the PT buried my expectations so badly that I was thrilled with 7 being a movie with at least a comprehensible plot and decent acting/dialogue.
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Ewoks are kind of weird and out of place, but I've never gotten the pathological hatred some people seem to have for them.
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KamikazePotato posted...

What this topic is telling me is that Star Wars isn't actually good outside of Episode 4 & 5

I can get on board with that sentiment

this topic is wrong
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7 is average, doesn't really reach 'good' level
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Depends on your standards for good. I might agree.

1 is painful at worst (Anakin and some of the Jar Jar stuff basically), incoherent at best, and just a total waste of time overall. I could see leaving it on for background noise though. It's bad but not like worst of all time bad.
2 is boring and cringey to the point that I would actively avoid watching it again ever. Bottom 10 movie all time for me, in spite of the few good moments.
3 is good for cheesemongering if you're into that, otherwise avoid.
4 and 5 are just great movies and must watches for anyone.
6 has a lot of flaws but is worth watching for the good stuff if you liked 4 and 5.
7 is decent movie, but underwhelming and unnecessary to really watch unless you're super into Star Wars, want to get in on discussions, or 8 and/or 9 turn out to be great.

I think I'd call 4, 5, and 6 "good movies" and 3 "a guilty pleasure of mine that maybe you'll like too."

5 > 4 > 6 > 3 > 7 > 1 > 2 imo.

Haven't seen Rogue One yet. Going to watch it in the next week probably.
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my only problem with 7 is that it ruined the perfect inequality of 6 > 5 > 4 > 3 > 2 > 1
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4 > 5 > 6 > 7 > RO > we'll see how this PT watch-through goes

I can't imagine 3 could sneak ahead of RO or 7, but we'll see. I started 2 last night and the beginning sucks. It's just... all on the dialogue and acting. McGregor and Jackson try their best, but you get the feeling that they're struggling to scale an unclimbable mountain here (Mt. Lucas). Hayden Christensen might actually be worse than Jake Lloyd. It's been well noted that Lucas TOLD him to give such a wooden, monotone delivery of all his lines, right?
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7 isn't a very good Star Wars movie.

I remember seeing it for the first time and being pleasantly surprised by how good the dialogue, the acting, and the cinematography was. One of the first things that I thought was "THIS is how the prequel movies should have been directed". After watching those films and expecting more of the same quality, it was a huge breath of fresh air, and you can't compare the two when it comes to how it was crafted

And yet, the film was worse than any of them. The characters were terrible, the story was lame and an uninspired retread, and I while I could enjoy the action and some of the individual scenes, as a whole it left me somewhat disappointed. For all the problems (the MANY problems) the prequels had it did do a pretty great job of worldbuilding, which is one my favorite things about the Star Wars franchise (or any fantasy/sci-fi franchise I'm a fan of). Everything about TFA felt so... small. We had the Rebellion again, and the Empire again, and the Death Star again, just under new names. It felt like they shrunk the universe and made all the previous stories, including the ones from the Original Trilogy meaningless since everything was basically reset. It didn't build off what came before, it just sort of rebooted everything while still technically making it a sequel. So while I can't say it's a better "movie" than any of the prequels since it's more well-made, I don't like it or appreciate more than the prequels. I'd still call it worse than they were.
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Sometimes I wonder what people in the mid/late 80s would think of 7 if we could use a time machine to release it back then. Would it still be considered a great movie without 30 years of pent-up demand for a decent new Star Wars movie and having the prequels around to make it look better by comparison?
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

TPM's space battle is ruined by "now THIS is podracing!", "yippee!", etc,

anakin actually said "yippee!" earlier in the movie, not during the space battle.

extremely important correction!
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He says "yippee!" twice, but yeah both times on Tatooine. I remember vividly because the same night we were watching TPM, my roommate yippee'd at the perfect joke moment and the water I just started drinking was spat out all over the damn floor.
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LeonhartFour posted...

KamikazePotato posted...

What this topic is telling me is that Star Wars isn't actually good outside of Episode 4 & 5

I can get on board with that sentiment

this topic is wrong

Nah this topic is right.
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Wherever Eddv and Nanis are on the same page, I am jumping to a different page. Maybe even a different book.
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I like describing Episode 3 as a guilty pleasure. That is the perfect way to describe that film
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I think my Star Wars ~Power Rankings~ goes something like this:

Pretty Good:
4
5

Okay:
6
3
7

No:
2
1

6 kneecaps itself with the Han/Leia plotline. It's not just the Ewoks, the entire thing is just...slow. 3 isn't a good movie but it's super entertaining. 7 is technically well-produced but overall boring.

Random thought: I really disliked how in 7 that Finn went from being horrified at the prospect of shooting people to gleefully blowing up the base of his former friends to escape. Like I get that the Empire are the Bad Guys so we're supposed to not care as much when they die, but it was so jarring that it took me out of the movie entirely.
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4 > 5 > 7 > 6 > RO > 2 > 3 > 1

I dunno what this business with everyone suddenly deciding to overrate 3 and underrate 7 is. 7's a fun space adventure with likeable characters and competent, non-CGI overloaded cinematography with precious little of the kind of dumb shit that fills the PT. It's good!

7 is derivative but still good.

The way I look at 7 is this: if it wasn't a Star Wars film, would I even have bothered to see it? Would I still be thinking about it or talking about it? The answer is 'not really'. It wasn't bad but it was unmemorable.
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KamikazePotato posted...

The way I look at 7 is this: if it wasn't a Star Wars film, would I even have bothered to see it? Would I still be thinking about it or talking about it? The answer is 'not really'. It wasn't bad but it was unmemorable.

If 3 wasn't a Star Wars film it would be one of the most laughably bad space epics ever written

if 7 wasn't a star wars film maybe it wouldn't even get sequels and then it would be pretty bad, yeah. as a standalone movie it doesn't work.
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6 > 4 > 7 > 3 > 5 > RO > 2 > 1
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3 is fun only at certain moments because of how terrible it is. It's the closest thing we have to a The Room of space opera.
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Whiskey_Nick posted...

6 > 4 > 7 > 3 > 5 > RO > 2 > 1

well that's a take

I think "well what if this film wasn't a Star Wars movie" is kind of a dumb argument anyway though - like, all of the Star Wars movies exist in the context of there being a long, connected plotine, even the Empire Strikes Back doesn't work all that well if it's "not a Star Wars movie", that's their schtick, these films would have been written differently if they were generic space movies

I don't really care that 7 was a rehash so much as I care that it brought back the fun and the likeability that were completely absent in the PT. The difference in acting quality is also obvious. 7 probably has more "good" moments than the entire PT combined.

Now if 8 rips off ESB that's a problem, but I don't have much of a problem with the focus of 7 being on fixing everything the PT did wrong. It's an easily forgiveable sin if it's not repeated.
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Paratroopa1 posted...

I think "well what if this film wasn't a Star Wars movie" is kind of a dumb argument anyway though - like, all of the Star Wars movies exist in the context of there being a long, connected plotine, even the Empire Strikes Back doesn't work all that well if it's "not a Star Wars movie", that's their schtick, these films would have been written differently if they were generic space movies

Well, I mean, kinda

But I think A New Hope works perfectly well as a stand alone movie

And given The Force Awakens is the most direct comparison to A New Hope for a lot of reasons and kinda doesn't, it does matter a bit.
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ANH obviously doesn't count, it's the first one

I mean

TFA was the first of a trilogy that's like 30 years in universe time away from the original trilogy.

It's not really a direct sequel-- it is possible to make a work of fiction in the same universe but not a direct sequel stand on its own
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I dont disagree but sequelitis HAS completely killed the appral of the franchise considering every sequel since ESB has been lukewarm crap.
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7 is basically a rehash of 4. I don't think you need to watch any of the other movies to appreciate 7. Outside of seeing Luke at the end I don't think anything is super necessary to know about. And It's quite frankly a much worse movie than 4.
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ANH is different because lucas expected that the movie would flop and there weren't going to be any sequels. he made it as a standalone movie.
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Basically the only reason you need to watch other movies to appreciate 7 is for the references to work for you-- but if it was a well constructed movie those references would be gravy, not something that's necessary to think the movie is really good

Like, as a good recent example of a similar movie

I know people who have watched Marvel's The Avengers as their first MCU movie and thought it was great. It's better if you've seen some or all of the component avenger films, but it's not really necessary to enjoy it or come out of the movie thinking that was memorable. I think any film that's not a direct sequel to another should be the same way, even if sequels are planned-- yes I'm looking at you The Hobbit.
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I think Empire would still be excellent as it's own thing, it might be missing some greater plot context but it does way better on character and theme than any of the other films and that's what sticks with you.

Real talk as a kid I saw Empire Strikes Back first and thought it was great.
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7 would be better if it wasn't a Star Wars sequel since at least then I could just say "Oh, it's ripping off Star Wars" instead of "Why is Star Wars ripping off itself?"
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banananor posted...

6 is the weakest of the original trilogy by far and kind of annoying but it's still better than anything in the prequels

the prequels are just so bad in every single way that it's a better experience to read their plot summaries on wikipedia than actually watch the movies

3 felt decent only in comparison to 1 and 2

Whoops I meant to write 6/rotj instead of 7 there
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I do wonder for all these people who are saying III is entertaining or better than OT movies when the last time was they actually watched it because I thought III was good when I saw it in theaters, too. Then I tried to watch that Anakin/Obi-Wan lightsaber duel a year or two ago because I think there was a topic on here about what the best lightsaber duel in the series was. I watched it on YouTube and I remember thinking, "wow this isn't good"
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LeonhartFour posted...

I do wonder for all these people who are saying III is entertaining or better than OT movies when the last time was they actually watched it because I thought III was good when I saw it in theaters, too. Then I tried to watch that Anakin/Obi-Wan lightsaber duel a year or two ago because I think there was a topic on here about what the best lightsaber duel in the series was. I watched it on YouTube and I remember thinking, "wow this isn't good"

We seem to be PT opinion buddies

The lightsaber duel in III is way too long drawn out and boring, and the environment just makes it even stupider, they're just doing action nonsense with a bunch of lava for no reason. It looks so silly and the whole thing is so meaningless until the very end when Anakin gets burnt up, something that happens in spite of the fact that they didn't seem all that concerned about fighting over a dramatic volcano setting for the last like 20 minutes of the film good god

I feel like there's more iffy lightsaber duels than good ones. Luke v Vader in E5 & E6 are pretty good. Don't think I really like any of the others.

Anakin v Obi-Wan is pretty dumb but Duel of Fates is such a good song.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

I'd probably be disappointed in 7 had the PT not existed (thus, with it being the first OT sequel). Instead, the PT buried my expectations so badly that I was thrilled with 7 being a movie with at least a comprehensible plot and decent acting/dialogue.

You'd probably be thrilled with 7, what are you talking about?

It's the first new Star Wars movie in 35 years!!!
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