Board 8 > ace attorney topic: the return (spoilers for 1-5, AAI1-2)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Yeah not me. 4-4 killed my innocence

AAI1 didn't help either though - if that game had been great then it might have saved me, but after that I was like, not excited at all for AA5/AA6 (but then they turned out fine)

it's a matter of taste (ha-ha). but von Karma's aura is kinda ruined. he seems generally average here whereas he was absolutely ironclad in 1-4. Leon nailed it - von Karma walking out of a confection castle or whatever is just a joke beneath him. that DL-6, the most legendary of cases in the AAverse, is this silly fun house makes it feel awfully slight.

I'm a lot harsher on this case than most (all). Gregory is a weird contrast to the tone of this case. if people want to talk about AJ vs. AAI in terms of being overly serious, we should probably talk about Gregory contrasting with the location. the only good thing there is his damage animation.
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AA5 restored my faith there, though the AA6 demo made me hesitate. AA6 cemented it though and I have high hopes for AA7 regardless.
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They seem to have figured out what they did wrong, so I imagine AA7 will be cool

transience posted...

the only good thing there is his damage animation.

yeah but it's pretty much the best damage animation ever that isn't Damon Gant's

literally the only time Gregory smiles is when he takes damage

But I've always really liked Gregory even before AAI2, so getting to play as him was an odd sort of wish fulfillment (Going back to the FF comparison, E2-3 was kinda like Crisis Core with Zack was for me; I really liked Zack before CC, too). Yeah, he's too serious, but it's nice to see him think about his son and stuff like that, too.
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The E2-3 case isn't DL-6, though. DL-6 is the murder of Gregory Edgeworth inside the elevator and it is nothing but serious. E2-3 is the case Gregory was working on at the time he was killed.
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Yeah, they're technically separate cases, but IS-7 leads directly to DL-6, so they're essentially joined at the hip.
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Cases I consider truly terrible are few and far between, and none of them were in 4.

6-4 definitely on that list.
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4-3 might be the only case I consider legitimately terrible, but I still have fun when Daryan takes the stand at the end. It's like my reward for putting up with the awful logic, that darn video tape, and Lamiroir's redundant testimonies.
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1-5 killed my innocence. i was pretty sure i shouldn't expect the series to be as consistently good after that. the board reaction to aa4 kept me away from the series for a good while and i'm happy i waited for aai2 and aa5 before rejoining

aa2 and aa3 really wrapped things for phoenix, and aai2 wrapped edgeworth, though. if the creators had dragged their feet more and made more cases like 3-2 and 3-3, i would've been happy to play that type of case forever. as is, it's almost uncomfortable to play cases with phoenix and edgeworth in them

also not a fan of the direction of lengthier investigation and trial segments, and some of the changes to investigation and trial. that absolutely does not seem to be going away, though.
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Yeah, the scale of the series has gradually been getting bigger as the years go by. Heck, even Takumi has gone large scale with the DGS games now (at least based on the first game and the first case in DGS2 that I've seen). I don't have the issues with it you do though.

it's weird that you love AAI2 so much though considering it's one of the biggest offenders
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I've gone on record as of AA5 as saying that the need to one-up the previous games is potentially killing that series. I can't imagine the development cost of AA6 vs. AA1, and I'm not talking assets or animations.
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I honestly hope they don't try to one-up 6-5, as weird as that is to say. Just let that stand on its own for a while.
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There are only 5 cases I dislike and most of them haven't been mentioned! I really do need to finish my series replay and do that ranking

I don't mind that as the end of a trilogy. if they want to do that for 9-5, sure! not 7-5 and 8-5 though
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Yeah, that's what I meant. They can try it again in a few games, but not in AA7.
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For some reason I had a brief existential crisis at the concept of "9-5"

Paratroopa1 posted...

For some reason I had a brief existential crisis at the concept of "9-5"

just imagine how old we'll all be if the series is still around when we start getting into double digits
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I guess the AA series is 16

weird
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I was younger than PW1 Phoenix when I started playing this series and now I'm creeping up on AJ Phoenix.
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re: 4-4 vs. E2-3. That's a pretty good point that makes me rethink about E2-3, even if it's just vastly a more fun case around. I agree with 4-4 just having a bigger impact on the series, but 4-4 desecrates Phoenix, who we saw far more than DL-6, which is really limited to just a few cases. Plus, it's mainly von Karma and Gregory, who are just...whatever.

Also, Gregory contrasting with the location is great! I loved how Gregory is just this serious character who is LA Noireing a dessert castle. von Karma was ruined, but eh, he was already ruined in E-4 in his short cameo.
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E2-3 doesn't ruin von Karma for me at all. Just doesn't. Can't really tell you why.

Oooooh damn. Still on investigation day for day 2, but I think I figured one of the big twists out already :/
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what is it? I'll get a kick out of your theory
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Nayna is Amari.
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interesting. I won't confirm or deny.
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I laughed at that spoiler because it made me think of the Raiders WR and that would be one heck of a plot twist
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Oh.

Guess that's not a huge trial twist, huh? Just gonna find out she's alive during investigation, lol.

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Paratroopa1 posted...

E2-3 doesn't ruin von Karma for me at all. Just doesn't. Can't really tell you why.

I think it's because Gregory was hyped up was the only attorney who could stand up to von Karma to begin with and it only cemented that legacy. I don't think it really harms von Karma's legacy other than getting nitpicky with saying stuff like he'd never engage Gregory outside of the courtroom, which is probably true unless he had a stun gun in his hand, but eh, whatever.
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I think von Karma's sweating animation comes out in e2-3? I won't stand for that. they use that to amazing effect in 1-4.
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it does but they also show good attention to detail by not having him ever grab his shoulder

but I also think it doesn't ruin how effective it is in 1-4 either unless you played E2-3 first for some reason
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it just retroactively breaks the aura. feels retconny in a way that others don't. I really love 1-4 and trial day 3. on the right day, it's my #1 case.
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Yeah, I suppose I can understand that. I have problems with what 1-5 does with Edgeworth's character because it feels like a retcon. It's also part of why I can never fully embrace E1-4 as a good case because I always feel like Edgeworth shouldn't be that guy back then.
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LeonhartFour posted...

it's weird that you love AAI2 so much though considering it's one of the biggest offenders

Fair point. I really like AAI2 and don't mind its length, at least in part because and you tend to alternate very frequently between investigation and testimony. I find that changing locations is also fairly refreshing, and I really enjoy when you get to move to the final boss location, knowing it's the showdown. It also feels rather testimony/cross-examination-y in its most important parts - they're about as good as it gets in the post-AA3 world.

It's different being confined to marathon trials. Honestly, I think I'd be fine with the length of cases in general if they were split out over more days. AA6 is particularly alarming, since 6-2 is a one-day case that has the length of a two-day case (and the sophistication of a 1-2-type of case), while 6-3 and 6-5 feel like at least three- or four-day cases. Said it before, but for 6-5, Amara being alive being out-of-trial feels particularly like a casualty of the "all-trials-together" world we live in now.

In the end, many of my favorite cases are long ones. 6-5 is up there despite my disagreement with its structure. I still prize the characters/plot/dialogue/framing highest. Doesn't mean I can't take issue with 'em though!
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also, i take very little issue with E1-4 and E2-3's handling of the past, because 1-5 basically showed me that if you want to protect the original trilogy's canon, just stick to playing the original trilogy. when i replay 1-1 through 3-5, i just think of them as being self-contained, since that's what they are. AA4+ don't really factor into the canon in the same way for me.
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I dunno. I feel like I've thought "man this case is way too long" more in the two AAI games than I've felt in any of the mainline games. E2-2, man.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

also, i take very little issue with E1-4 and E2-3's handling of the past, because 1-5 basically showed me that if you want to protect the original trilogy's canon, just stick to playing the original trilogy. when i replay 1-1 through 3-5, i just think of them as being self-contained, since that's what they are. AA4+ don't really factor into the canon in the same way for me.

Eh, I can't make that sort of dichotomy. I'm not a fan of "head-canon."
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I played AA3 in 2008 and then didn't touch the series for 6 years. Nothing in a later game detracts from the earlier games for me. While I certainly do head-canon stuff sometimes, it's always easier to do when dealing with something that was already self-contained before something "extra" was added.

Between AA3 and the release of 1-5, Edgeworth disappearing after 1-4 was canon. Retconning splits continuity pretty much by definition, and AA4 continues off of 1-5's stuff.

Angel Season 4 (vague spoilers) introduces a retcon that everything that's happened to a certain point has been some master plan or whatever, but it's inconsequential and easily scrubbed from memory.

Oh, and definitely agreed about E2-2 (and the final stretch of E1-5, for that matter) going on too long. But they go on too long in a very different way than cases like 6-1 or 6-2 for me. E2-2 in particular just has way too much plot for its own good, and it's not able to bring it to a climax that pays off. 6-1 and 6-2 aren't overloaded with plot; they just get cumbersome with their own weight.
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Eh, the whole thing of when Edgeworth disappears is inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. I don't care about that. It's pretending Edgeworth was just misunderstood, not dirty, that I take issue with. I think it waters down his face turn in 1-3 and his character development in 2-4.
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Yup. What I said applies for Edgeworth's characterization, too, of course. The Edgeworth we see in court versus Mia is very obviously interpreted differently from the Edgeworth in E1-4. We can try to give logically consistent explanations that fit everything, but the simplest explanation is that the creators of the series care much less about consistent characterization than we do. I get annoyed by enough stuff with writing and characterization that when it comes to "they just didn't care enough about it," so I just choose not to be bothered by the inconsistency when it comes to retcons.
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The thing is that it really only impacts two cases (1-5 and E1-4), so it's not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, but I can never like those cases as much as I otherwise would as a result. It doesn't make me like 1-3 or 2-4 any less. It doesn't really create a "new continuity" because all the other new stuff is after 2-4, so Edgeworth is already that guy.
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your e1-4 stance makes more sense now. the Edgeworth stuff, conversely, doesn't really phase me at all. I never even considered 1-5 Edgeworth being an anomaly until talking about it here. e1-4 feels natural too.

then again, the only past Edgeworth that I really like is 3-4 Edgeworth - and he's the best.
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Just imagine getting to play as 3-4 Edgeworth in E1-4

I want to see him calling Yew a bimbo and making fun of how much makeup she's wearing
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Yeah, there's no way to reconcile 3-4 Edgeworth with E1-4 and 1-5. I get where Leon's coming, but I guess it just isn't a big deal to me. Much like how E2-3 doesn't really bother me on its impact with 1-4. And I've mostly cooled down on 4-4/4-0.
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I will never forgive 4-0. Never. Railroading Phoenix into losing by Klavier going "don't even think about pointing out the fact that a page has clearly been ripped out of the diary; it won't count because I say so" is the worst.
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LeonhartFour posted...

I will never forgive 4-0. Never. Railroading Phoenix into losing by Klavier going "don't even think about pointing out the fact that a page has clearly been ripped out of the diary; it won't count because I say so" is the worst.

The woooooooorst

Disregarding everything else, that ****ing line Klavier said. Jegus.
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I'll repeat myself - that just seems like convenient writing. I'm sure there's more egregious things in aa5 or 6 that are just fine because Phoenix isn't set up.
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Oh, it's absolutely a matter of convenience because Phoenix has to lose his badge. I just think there was a way to do it that wasn't stupid. The whole game has been building up to this moment, and that's what we got. It's hard to imagine a bigger anticlimax. Like, I wasn't really opposed to Phoenix losing his badge, but you have to handle that moment well. You just have to, and they didn't.

I mean, Phoenix kinda got railroaded on 6-3 Day 1, too, but it's a lot more forgivable because of the way the system works in Khura'in. It's actually effective because of it, really. Plus, Nahyuta was actually kind of clever in trapping Phoenix as opposed to what happened in 4-0.
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I think 1-5 is problematic for AA2 as a whole. Phoenix's feelings of resentment toward Edgeworth simmer the whole game, and make way more sense when you consider that he disappeared right after Phoenix saved his life, and that we're two cases removed from 1-2 Edgeworth. 1-5 has the two of them teaming up to bring down a bad guy, which eventually becomes the pattern for them every time Edgeworth shows up again afterward.

Can't forgive the conclusion of 4-0 for sure. But if they'd at least made 4-4 worth it, it could have been a bitter pill I swallowed for convenience. I think 4-4 was the time to use a Blaise character - someone being behind Kristoph, who's more representative of an endemic problem in the system - rather than falling back on a dude we've literally already put away. And yeah, the ending of 6-3 Day 1 is the best moment of that case.
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Eh, I can get Phoenix being angry at Edgeworth for disappearing regardless of whether 1-5 counts or not. It's still the appearance of Edgeworth running away from his fears, just for different reasons.
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