Board 8 > ace attorney topic: the return (spoilers for 1-5, AAI1-2)

(+) Yeah! (+)

oh no

Edgey's new "objection" is bad :(
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I don't think it's awful, but his original was one of the GOAT so it sucks that it's been changed. I think Phoenix's is worse, too.
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Well, it's hard to top the nostalgia value of the originals.
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I think they're worse in general too.
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Eh, I dunno. Like, all of Edgeworth's original sound clips EXCEPT his Objection are kinda bad. They don't even all sound like they're from the same person. The OT tries to be a lot more over the top with the sound clips (like Payne's OBJEKSHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN or Alba's HUBJECTION), so maybe people like that better than just them yelling the word at a high volume.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Eh, I dunno. Like, all of Edgeworth's original sound clips EXCEPT his Objection are kinda bad. They don't even all sound like they're from the same person. The OT tries to be a lot more over the top with the sound clips (like Payne's OBJEKSHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN or Alba's HUBJECTION), so maybe people like that better than just them yelling the word at a high volume.

Wasn't OBJECTION the one present for the original trilogy? I don't remember getting any other voiced lines until AAI, which was several years later.
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Edgeworth got a HOLD IT and TAKE THAT for his playable segment in 3-5. Every playable attorney had all three of those, and then Apollo added GOTCHA, and Edgeworth got EUREKA for AAI.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Edgeworth got a HOLD IT and TAKE THAT for his playable segment in 3-5. Every playable attorney had all three of those, and then Apollo added GOTCHA, and Edgeworth got EUREKA for AAI.

Oh right, I forgot that he had those lines for 3-5. Still, I suppose there still was a decent sized gap of time between when they recorded Edgeworth's Objection to when they did his other lines.

It does sound like he had his stuffiness (for a lack of a better term) exaggerated for his 3-5 and later lines, but nothing quite jarring like his Dual Destinies voice.
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Well, none of the original voice clips are done by professional VAs. They were just done by the staff, so that would probably explain the disparity for Edgeworth since I doubt they were recorded at the same time. I think Ben Judd (the guy who does Phoenix) said it took him literally dozens of takes just to get three usable clips.

also Calisto Yew will always have the worst OBJECTION
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I'd put Knightley's as the worst Objection, but that might be invoking a completely different set of standards there.
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Knightley's objection is fine I think, it's no worse than like, either of the Gavins

It still remains weird to me that AAI2 has some of the BETTER voice work in the series, not worse

And by AAI2 I mean Prosecutor's Path

I thought Phoenix's new voice sounded worse too but it's not as jarring as Edgey's. His old objection had a perfect sharpness and pomposity to it, the new one is flat and generic. Oh well, at least they nailed Blackquill who is the real star prosecutor in this game.
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in more interesting news, WOW did I not see this phantom twist coming. I'm thrilled but also a bit sad!
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yeah. let's talk after you finish it - I don't want to ruin anything
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Paratroopa1 posted...

It still remains weird to me that AAI2 has some of the BETTER voice work in the series, not worse

I mean, the AAI2 fan translation team is just as qualified to do voice work as the OT staff, so it's not that surprising that they could put out something of similar quality. Ray's is the only one I really like though. The rest are mostly fine.
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Okay, so I finished 5-5. Like I said, the twist of Fulbright being the phantom caught me off guard - I hadn't given the culprit much thought and was just going with the flow, assuming that Aura might have lied about seeing the killer or that one of the robots might end up being the killer somehow. I think the twist itself was pretty well executed and genuinely shocking, I liked Fulbright quite a bit in previous cases and thought he would serve fine as the "Gumshoe" of this new arc, so the betrayal actually stung. Unfortunately his showing in court was not as impressive. I get that he's supposed to be almost emotionless, but it would have been more fun if his facade had been unraveled a bit more before the bit with the masks. Also, they dedicated relatively little time to him considering he was supposed to be this looming shadow over everything, I would have liked a more complex puzzle with more testimony to crack and more evidence to present against him. I feel like the character took a lot of cues from de Killer and Engarde from 2-4, but wasn't executed nearly as well. His final breakdown was cool, but ultimately the resolution felt a bit lacking.
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Yeah, the twist of who the Phantom is was the most impressive part of that sequence because I was like you and hadn't given it much thought until they force you to pick, and you realize it can't be anybody else. Reminded me a lot of a similar moment in Persona 4. The rest of it could've been done better, I guess, but like I said earlier, his Mood Matrix was A+ (as was Blackquill's earlier in the trial).

Also, I think the Phantom gets about as much time as AAI2's Mastermind does, although he's not as good, so I don't think it's an issue of time.
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I'm not a big fan of the mood matrix tbh. count me in the evidence is everything camp
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okay Kristoph

you usually have to finish off a Mood Matrix by presenting evidence anyway
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also I've actually been skimming through 5-5 myself on YouTube since there's been so much talk about it from two different users who somehow were playing it at nearly the same time over 4 years after the game came out

That Ponco cross-examination is super good. It's one of the most unique ones in the series.
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mood matrix is a dumb gimmick, but it's better than in-court perceive (LOL) and there are some really nice uses of it - damian tenma, robin, and of course the phantom's is the best of the lot

it does kind of make the confrontation drag a bit though. i'm with leon that it felt plenty lengthy enough - if 5-5 had finished with as killer a confrontation as e2-5 i'd probably have it as a top 5 case
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It's still a top 5 case despite its semi-rough finish. It is one of the weaker epic case finishes (probably only ahead of E1-5 and 4-4), but man, 5-5 has so many good individual pieces that I love it a lot anyway.
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here's an opinion

5-5's as flawed as 4-4
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yes that is definitely an opinion of sorts

4-4's flaws are a lot more damaging even if you put them on equal footing though since it's not about the amount of flaws
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I see 5-5's phantom stuff to be on par with 4-0. it kind of breaks an entire game in the same way.

but I also like 4-4, and I like 5-5, so it evens out
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transience posted...

I see 5-5's phantom stuff to be on par with 4-0. it kind of breaks an entire game in the same way.

well they're both character assassinations

just 5-5's is a lot more literal

R.I.P. real Bobby Fulbright
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wait what about the phantom breaks the game??

4-4's biggest issue isn't that 4-0 ends poorly, it's just that the case isn't very good anyway.
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4-4's biggest issue in retrospect is that everything significant about it has been negated by the new games so it's the most meaningless epic case now, but I can't really hold that against the case itself

4-4 trial day 2 is really bad though
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Yeah I don't consider significance a big criterion for me in case quality. 3-2 and 3-3 and even E2-5 are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things to me so that doesn't bother me. 4-4 Day 2 is the travesty.
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Like I said, I don't hold it against the case itself, but it essentially promised to overhaul everything and ultimately changed nothing. I don't mind filler cases. The series is full of them, which is why I was utterly baffled when people got mad at 6-4 for being filler.

like 6-4 has problems but being filler isn't one of them
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4-4's just a bad case in almost every way. Kristoph's presence on the stand as an antagonist is terrible. Not much humour, or at least most of it fell flat to me. 4-0 might be the worst-written arc in the series. Apollo gets his spotlight stolen from him and doesn't really have a satisfying conclusion in that game (he gets better ones in both 5 and especially 6). Most of the Gramarye plot makes me facepalm; more eloquent people than me have explained how awful they are and how the game doesn't seem to acknowledge this. Klavier despite being both the prosecutor and the main villain's brother barely feels relevant to the case. It's a mess.

5-5 by contrast has so many amazing moments; getting to the bottom of the Simon, of Athena, of Aura, of how their backstory shapes the present case, is terrific. The Phantom twist is a great "holy ****" moment, and he himself is a lot of fun. And it's easily Edgeworth's best showing post-AAI2. So much to like about that case.
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Well, Edgeworth only has a couple of showings post-AAI2, so there isn't much to choose from!

I actually like the Gramarye stuff. It's probably the only non-bad part of 4-0. Valant's pretty great! I think the game explains how bad all the Gramaryes are as people except for Zak. He gets a free pass for some reason, except in 4-1 where you don't know he's Zak yet.
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LeonhartFour posted...

4-4's biggest issue in retrospect is that everything significant about it has been negated by the new games so it's the most meaningless epic case now, but I can't really hold that against the case itself

4-4 trial day 2 is really bad though

I dunno, 5-5 might own this too
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5-5 freed Blackquill, so even if that's the only thing of significance that happened, it's still one more thing than 4-4 has.
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4-4 has the Gramaryes, Trucy's backstory, etc. it's about as consequential as Blackquill.
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Oh, if we're going that route, then all of Athena's issues being resolved was as important as that. Like, the Gramaryes aren't really that important outside of 4-4, even with them having a part to play in 6-2. They've done nothing with Trucy's backstory since then either, which is probably one of the more annoying things 4-4 left hanging because they actually COULD do something with that if they really wanted.
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6-2 probably qualifies as something they've done with trucy's backstory? at least her character/profession.
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They could've done that case even without 4-4's revelations. Those things were established about Trucy before 4-4. It really doesn't have any impact on it, other than her having Zak's magic rights, I guess, but she probably doesn't really need those either to do a magic show.
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Valant isn't offensive like his brother or dad but I'm not really sure what there is to hype about him either; I basically just remember him being needlessly cryptic and not much else. But it's been a decade since I've played that game (unlike every other AA title) so by all means, refresh my memory.
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I like his animations and his penchant for alliteration. Plus, him struggling with his inner darkness coupled with his inferiority complex (which leads to him framing Zak to begin with), as well as the game making him a red herring and making you think he has to be Magnifi's killer when he really isn't, make him a good character in my book.
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Valant's a great character. Easily the shining spot of 4-4 after Trial 1.
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Nearly all of the MASON part was a shining moment. It's jarring to go from such a great, emotional, intriguing segment to such an anticlimactic, cringe-worthy trial.
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i have a new ranking ready, inspired by some of this discussion, but i guess i'll save it for the next topic!
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Man, I forgot how great that fakeout in 5-5 is when the Phantom takes off the Fulbright mask and Starbuck's face is underneath. That gets me every time.

also Blackquill is the real star of DD

top 10 character for the series
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Fulbright taking off the mask to reveal Starbuck annoys me because that would have been a cooler twist than what we actually got

If there's something that's really grating about 4-4, it's this revelation that Misham was sketching cases related to Apollo's previous trials underneath his forgeries that just utterly goes nowhere.
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_SecretSquirrel posted...

If there's something that's really grating about 4-4, it's this revelation that Misham was sketching cases related to Apollo's previous trials underneath his forgeries that just utterly goes nowhere.

very relevant to the discussion of the phantom disappointment!

similarly athena's fingerprints at the end of 5-4 being explained with "i lied" was a letdown (though 5-5 used that drama extremely well prior to this, so it's considerably more excusable)
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Paratroopa1 posted...

Fulbright taking off the mask to reveal Starbuck annoys me because that would have been a cooler twist than what we actually got

I mean it would've made literally no sense (as Blackquill points out immediately afterward)

which is why I love them faking you out with it because my immediate reaction and fear was that the series had jumped the shark

SeabassDebeste posted...

similarly athena's fingerprints at the end of 5-4 being explained with "i lied" was a letdown (though 5-5 used that drama extremely well prior to this, so it's considerably more excusable)

The twist is great when you realize Fulbright was deliberately setting up Athena because you have no reason to suspect straight-laced Fulbright would ever do anything like that

Whether you like him or not, the game has conditioned you to implicitly trust him by that point, and so you actually believe Fulbright over Athena when there hasn't even been any indication yet that she was even there at all

_SecretSquirrel posted...

If there's something that's really grating about 4-4, it's this revelation that Misham was sketching cases related to Apollo's previous trials underneath his forgeries that just utterly goes nowhere.

It's just foreshadowing that Misham knows Phoenix. I don't know what else they're supposed to do with that, especially considering the dude is dead and you can't exactly ask him about it.
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3-5 > SD
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