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Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 157: Dynamic Dudes Appreciation Station

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Viktor Vaughn
12/17/11 10:30:00 AM
#151:


From: SmartMuffin | #150
Mark Henry basically got over on his own! Sure, it took a decade and a half, but...


i didn't take a decade and a half

it took a few months of them booking him competently

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Tom Bombadil
12/17/11 10:31:00 AM
#152:


Ryder

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SmartMuffin
12/17/11 10:31:00 AM
#153:


And the thing with DB is, he never even had a chance. As soon as he showed up, they immediately saddled him with Cole, and they've stuck with that the entire way.

HHH could easily step into a board meeting and say "Daniel Bryan can't be champion, the only reason anyone cares about him is because of the excellent heel commentary done by Michael Cole" and it would be literally impossible to disprove that.

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SmartMuffin
12/17/11 10:32:00 AM
#154:


From: Tom Bombadil | #152
Ryder


Cena has helped. A lot.

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DeathChicken
12/17/11 10:33:00 AM
#155:


Henry was actually over as pretty much the same character he has right now in ECW. Then he went to Raw and got even *more* over by face turning on Orton. Then...uh, they cut the legs out from under him, put him in an endless go nowhere team with MVP, had him lose to Batista a dozen times, and had Batista literally step on him going to the ring

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Viktor Vaughn
12/17/11 10:34:00 AM
#156:


imagin if wwe had booked mark henry as being this consistently dominating for the past ten years

he'd be a lock for the hall of fame for more than just his seniority, no questions asked

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GTM
12/17/11 10:36:00 AM
#157:


as if the wwe hall of fame means anything

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Viktor Vaughn
12/17/11 10:37:00 AM
#158:


From: GTM | #157
as if the wwe hall of fame means anything


i know i know

but still, just go with it

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TimJab
12/17/11 11:00:00 AM
#159:


if anybody ever gets the opportunity to "choose the stipulation" against amdrag, they should totally choose soda chugging competition

can you imagine luster vs. amdrag

the carnage

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ScareChan
12/17/11 11:13:00 AM
#160:


From: SmartMuffin | #123
See if they want to play it off more like Del Rio's richness is why everyone hates him he needs to deal out money with his face on it like JBL

I hate to give them this much credit, but it seems they want to be a little more subtle than that. Like, I'm getting a vibe of them wanting him to come across as boring and unoriginal so the fans will be like, "Man, this guy is boring and unoriginal!" then make the connection to "He's only getting this treatment because he's rich!!! OMG!" You know?

Like, he's a slightly older and more refined version of the classic "Entitled jerk who thinks everything should be handed to him despite the fact that he hasn't earned it" stereotype. The one that we're used to seeing be played out by some kid in his 20s whose dad was a big deal in the 80s.




I think if that's the case then I think the direction they should go in is have him lose his rematches and then go to Laurintis and say "This is my .destiny" but when he is talking about destiny he is greasing his palm with some cash. It makes Jonny come off as someone who is out for himself and Del rio come off despicable

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ScareChan
12/17/11 11:20:00 AM
#161:


I think the other problem is that Del Rio's real shining moment was locking Cena out of the cell and destroying Punk with a weapon. The problem is that they closed the show with Awesome Truth and Trips and that was the only thing really shown and mentioned. No one really knows that this dude is a damn dirty gennius.

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JaKyL25
12/17/11 11:44:00 AM
#162:


From: ScareChan | #160
I think if that's the case then I think the direction they should go in is have him lose his rematches and then go to Laurintis and say "This is my .destiny" but when he is talking about destiny he is greasing his palm with some cash. It makes Jonny come off as someone who is out for himself and Del rio come off despicable


The thing with that is that Laurinitis still has to maintain a certain degree of fairness because of the Interim tag. He can't just go with balls-out screwjobs because he knows he's being evaluated. That's why he's actually responding to Punk's attempts to label him as bland and uncreative, because right now it actually matters that he might be perceived that way. Once someone is locked into the position, it seems in wrestling that it takes either a match stipulation or divine intervention from Vince himself to remove them.

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GTM
12/17/11 11:49:00 AM
#163:


I don't think he has been that "fair" but he has done a relatively equal amount of both face and heel things like setting up one-on-one matches with Orton

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ScareChan
12/17/11 11:58:00 AM
#164:


Well when they make him official GM then. I think you see the point I am making though

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XIII_rocks
12/17/11 12:03:00 PM
#165:


It's been said a hundred times but I would really enjoy Cole in some kind of a manager role, though he'd be stealing Vickie's thunder probably.

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JaKyL25
12/17/11 12:06:00 PM
#166:


I do, I just think at this point that opportunity has passed. Del Rio has proven to be able to find away to overcome every obstacle thus far (except Punk in a fair fight I guess) without having to resort to dipping into his wealth. He's clearly in the same league as Cena and Punk even before you account for cheating, and the cheating (or at least the underhandedness in matches with no rules) puts him over the top when it works.

I think at this point, resorting to buying opportunities is beneath the Del Rio character.

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GTM
12/17/11 12:26:00 PM
#167:


From: XIII_rocks | #165
It's been said a hundred times but I would really enjoy Cole in some kind of a manager role, though he'd be stealing Vickie's thunder probably.


Is cole married in kayfabe? >_>;

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SmartMuffin
12/17/11 12:27:00 PM
#168:


He's clearly in the same league as Cena and Punk even before you account for cheating

Uh, I don't think that's very clear at all...

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JaKyL25
12/17/11 12:53:00 PM
#169:


Really? That's how it comes across to me.

Like, mentally when I tier the Raw guys, there's Cena and Punk and Del Rio and Triple H, and then on the tier below them are Rey and Miz and Dolph and Truth.

If you want to argue that maybe he's all alone on his own tier in between those two groups, then maybe, but he's 10x more credible to me than Miz is.

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DeathChicken
12/17/11 1:01:00 PM
#170:


Without a doubt. Mean, even after he lost the title, they still had him come out the next night on Raw and beat someone in like ten seconds

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XIII_rocks
12/17/11 1:09:00 PM
#171:


Yeah they've had him beat Rey clean loads of times, Kofi, JoMo (>_>), people like that. He's very clearly meant to be a top-level threat.

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JaKyL25
12/17/11 1:12:00 PM
#172:


Jimmy Jacobs's car broke down and he's asking people in Ohio for a ride to a show on Twitter. Now that's creative use of social media!

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SmartMuffin
12/17/11 1:28:00 PM
#173:


From: JaKyL25 | #169
Really? That's how it comes across to me.

Like, mentally when I tier the Raw guys, there's Cena and Punk and Del Rio and Triple H, and then on the tier below them are Rey and Miz and Dolph and Truth.

If you want to argue that maybe he's all alone on his own tier in between those two groups, then maybe, but he's 10x more credible to me than Miz is.


Well, he's there, but it's because of his cheating. It's kind of like how it was with heel Edge. He was competitive when he was cheating, but there was no chance in hell he was ever going to win without it, EXCEPT over midcard or even upper-midcard (which is where I would have Rey right now) guys.

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DeathChicken
12/17/11 1:31:00 PM
#174:


Which as said, would probably put him on his own little tier. He can reasonably be expected to cleanly stomp on any midcarder, and *can* beat Punk or Cena, but only if he cheats

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JaKyL25
12/17/11 1:39:00 PM
#175:


I feel like Del Rio needs a lot less cheating than Miz and Truth do.

Miz even on his absolute best day at Wrestlemania needed to be handed the win against Cena.

Del Rio levels the playing field through cheating, but wins on his own once the playing field is leveled.

One of the minor points I always point out about the very first Hell in a Cell match is the importance of Michaels crawling out of a pool of his own blood to cover Taker himself, as opposed to Kane dragging him into the cover like Cena did for Ryder on Monday. IMO that sort of thing makes a world of difference. At Vengeance, Awesome Truth came in and leveled the playing field for ADR in the Last Man Standing match, but they didn't beat Cena FOR Del Rio. Cena got up from their attack. Del Rio closed on his own.

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SmartMuffin
12/17/11 1:40:00 PM
#176:


At Vengeance, Awesome Truth came in and leveled the playing field for ADR in the Last Man Standing match, but they didn't beat Cena FOR Del Rio. Cena got up from their attack. Del Rio closed on his own.

Right. And that IS a step up. But there's still a little matter of "if absolutely no shenanigans of any kind occurs, Cena is going to win exactly 100% of the time" which puts him on a diff tier IMO.

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DeathChicken
12/17/11 1:41:00 PM
#177:


Miz also struggled to put away JoMo, who as noted, Del Rio walked over in ten seconds

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JaKyL25
12/17/11 1:47:00 PM
#178:


I think we have different definitions of "in the same league." Even if someone is superior on a level playing field, it's the level of competitveness in the match that determines if they're in the same league. I can agree that Cena > Del Rio, but I don't think it's by some insurmountable stretch that he would win 100% of the time given no cheating. To my recollection, they've only had one singles match with no stips, and Cena won, but it wasn't a walkover by any means.

Wrestlemania is the only time Miz has ever looked to at least be catching up to Cena. Every time before then and every time since then, Cena's either owned him or it has taken a numbers advantage to put Cena down. I feel like Del Rio is as competitive with Cena and Punk as Miz was at Wrestlemania with Cena every time out. And I guess I'm painting in broader strokes but that's enough for me to grant him access to the upper echelon on Raw.

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SmartMuffin
12/17/11 1:59:00 PM
#179:


I can agree that Cena > Del Rio, but I don't think it's by some insurmountable stretch that he would win 100% of the time given no cheating. To my recollection, they've only had one singles match with no stips, and Cena won, but it wasn't a walkover by any means.

When is the last time anyone beat Cena with no shenanigans?

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XIII_rocks
12/17/11 2:00:00 PM
#180:


Big Show in 2009, or so I believe

Unless you want to count MitB vs. Punk!

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DeathChicken
12/17/11 2:04:00 PM
#181:


When was that hour long match with Shawn Michaels? He lost that clean (after an hour)

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XIII_rocks
12/17/11 2:06:00 PM
#182:


07

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JaKyL25
12/17/11 2:11:00 PM
#183:


Well we can sit here and argue what counts as shenanigans all day.

I personally count Punk @ MitB as a clean win. Others don't.

R-Truth beat Cena by countout cleanly on Raw, but some wouldn't count that.

Sheamus won the Tables match cleanly at TLC '09, but then some say that doesn't count.

The last absolutely indisputable clean win over Cena was accomplished by Triple H on Raw the week before Bragging Rights '09.

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XIII_rocks
12/17/11 2:18:00 PM
#184:


Oh yeah.

Before THAT it was Show pre-WM25! >_>

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SmartMuffin
12/17/11 2:20:00 PM
#185:


Well, I said "shenanigans" and not "clean!"

I'd count Sheamus at TLC, but I would not count R-Truth via countout or Punk at MITB (obvious distraction there).

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XIII_rocks
12/17/11 2:23:00 PM
#186:


In fairness Punk "probably" had the much won before Vince came out, which is something a lot of people seem to forget.

Though "probably" is far from a guarantee.

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SmartMuffin
12/17/11 2:24:00 PM
#187:


From: XIII_rocks | #186
In fairness Punk "probably" had the much won before Vince came out, which is something a lot of people seem to forget.

Though "probably" is far from a guarantee.


Considering it's John Cena, it's FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR from a guarantee.

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XIII_rocks
12/17/11 2:29:00 PM
#188:


Well he was in the ascendancy in the match before the distraction which is important. I don't think enough is made of that.

That Cena vs. Wade match last year, where Cena lost and had to join Nexus. Wade kicked out of the AA so he looked strong, but Cena was implied to have that match won because he had the STF locked in before he got screwed by...whoever that was. There you had Cena in the ascendancy.

I don't know, I think they make certain implications with when and why interference happens. Vince came out to distract Punk, presumably because he'd just seen Punk hit a GTS.

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Dauntless Hunter
12/17/11 2:35:00 PM
#189:


From: GTM | #080
Dibiase was supposed to be face in the legacy breakup, yes, but people started going nuts for Orton, Orton ended up turning face instead


Yeah, DiBiase and/or Rhodes were supposed to be the faces out of the Legacy breakup, but the problem was nobody cared about DiBiase/Rhodes, so they liked seeing Orton beat them up and made him the face.

Also the breakup started around the time he was in a dumb heel vs heel title feud with Sheamus, and since Sheamus wasn't established yet the crowd leaned towards cheering for Orton. So people were already kinda used to cheering for him despite being heel.

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TimJab
12/17/11 3:38:00 PM
#190:


From: XIII_rocks | #186
In fairness Punk "probably" had the much won before Vince came out, which is something a lot of people seem to forget.


Did he? I can't remember what exactly led to Vince and Ace coming out, but I do remember what happened after they appeared, which was Cena sliding out and clotheslining Ace, and then getting back into the ring and being surprised by Punk. That leads me to believe that Cena was on his feet and Punk was down.

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XIII_rocks
12/17/11 3:41:00 PM
#191:


I've watched that match five or six times.

Cena tries AA off the top, Punk counters into Frankensteiner, knees him, GTS' Cena but he flies through the middle rope and out of the ring. Punk goes to throw him back in the ring, does so, Vince appears, distracts him and gives Cena time to recover. Punk runs back in, Cena does an STF, and you know how it goes from there.

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TheRock1525
12/17/11 3:43:00 PM
#192:


S***, I missed the whole "you can't have catchphrases and be a(n entertaining) heel" discussion.

I've got two words for you: The Rock.

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XIII_rocks
12/17/11 3:44:00 PM
#193:


I've got two words for YOU, Rock

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SmartMuffin
12/17/11 3:44:00 PM
#194:


All you really have to remember is that Vince wanted Cena to win, so presumably he wouldn't bother to come out to the ring at all unless Cena was at serious risk of losing.

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GTM
12/17/11 3:45:00 PM
#195:


I still think sheamus beating cena was part of a cena jumping conspiracy storyline that got dropped

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TheRock1525
12/17/11 3:45:00 PM
#196:


XIII_rocks posted...
I've got two words for YOU, Rock

"You're awesome!"

Why thank you, XIII.

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XIII_rocks
12/17/11 3:46:00 PM
#197:


Though it's annoying when stuff like that doesn't get mentioned.

Like, after Extreme Rules none of the commentators ever mentioned the fact that Christian had the ladder match vs. Del Rio for the WHC won until Brodus Clay interfered - all they talk about is Edge. One of those times Michael Cole b****es and moans without anyone actually doing anything to counter it.

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XIII_rocks
12/17/11 3:46:00 PM
#198:


No prob <3

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TheRock1525
12/17/11 3:46:00 PM
#199:


SmartMuffin posted...
All you really have to remember is that Vince wanted Cena to win, so presumably he wouldn't bother to come out to the ring at all unless Cena was at serious risk of losing.

The irony being that Cena had locked in the STFU for the 3rd time in the match, and would have definitely won had Vince left well-enough alone.

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XIII_rocks
12/17/11 3:47:00 PM
#200:


...but Punk was probably about to win before Vince came out >_>

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