Board 8 > So Operation Rainfall was a failure?

(+) Yeah! (+)

[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]

ChichiriMuyo posted...
Brittish localization is not the same as NA localization regardless of it being in English. It's good enough for me and many others, but it will have the effect of "losing" buyers if the British version is released in the US. Blame that on the American consumer.

Pretty sure most people interested in this game aren't going to care about that.

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From: GuessMyUserName | #052
don't you dare compare Xenoblade's quality to ToS2

He's talking about ToS1.

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From: KimPilgrim | Posted: 6/30/2011 3:36:59 AM | #054
He's talking about ToS1.

nevermind then

that totally works

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but yeah LtM is totally right, Xenoblade is not selling any less than 100k. Arc Rise Fantasia sold 100k. While an actual RPG for once, it get incredible backlash from reviews, and the incredibly awful VAs made it a laughing stock

*edit*

Also, Opoona was released back before the Wii became the hardcore game's focal point of hatred. ARF experienced the "Wii game who cares" syndrome and still managed 100k.

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KimPilgrim posted...
You can claim what you want but there is zero doubt in my mind that any RPG released for the Wii would at minimum double Opoona.

See, here's the thing - you're the only one making claims. I have no clue how much it will sell. I do believe it will sell much more than Opoona, but that's just an opinion that I'm not stating as some sort of fact. If it was a fact, NoA would be privy to that information long before any of us and would make a move on it if it was feasible. Also, I don't know much about Opoona, but it may well have had a much lower localization cost. Also, coming from a smaller company, it may have looked like a better deal. I don't have the information to say that Nintendo is making the wrong decision if Xenoblade is considered only as a single product. It may actually be something destined to relative failure if NoA moves forward on it, and none of us can say otherwise as an actual certainty. The PR fallout, though, makes me think that they should have confirmed a Xenoblade release regardless of whether or not they stood to profit. Even if they would have later gone on to say "see, it was a waste of our time" that's still a whole lot better for the millions who are unsure of the Wii U than "look, we know it's a waste of time whether you disagree or not."

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BT with the victory!

Nintendo is keeping their hostages until desperation time.

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It is what it is.

No, Xenoblade is pretty much guaranteed to sell much better than those. It's simply a more high-profile game. And even without that, after Operation Rainfall, it's got the internet talking about it. Capitalizing on that instant hype would have been very smart. And even without considering either of those, the game is already translated. There is pretty much nothing to lose by releasing it here. None of that is taking into consideration the PR damage this is going to do to them.

Essentially, it's just a mind-numbingly dumb decision in every possible capacity.

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KamikazePotato posted...
Do you seriously think that anyone in America is going to care if a game was localized in Britain. That's very silly.

I'm quite certain that's the case. The Office is a huge hit in the US, but it's not the Office that the British learned to love. Americans do things differently and have different expectations, and (at least in some circles) they don't like non-American accents to boot. It absolutely is silly. But that doesn't mean it's not a financial reality when investing in entertainment products. If Americans appreciated the way things were done in the UK and loved British accents as much as I did, the face of American entertainment would be radically different from what it is. That's simply not the case. If you're trying to sell Xenoblade to someone who isn't already onboard with Op RF, you're not doing yourself a favor by saying "by the way, NoA had no faith in the project so they used the British VAs and colloquialisms that you'd typically only encounter on that island."

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"Principally I hate and detest the animal called man, although I heartily love John, Peter, Thomas and so forth" - Jonathan Swift
BT with the victory!

Note

Don't confuse Nintendo of America with Nintendo as a whole

Nintendo of Europe is pretty awesome

Also, as for "British localisation won't sell", Heavy Rain. That wasn't even entirely British it was also part-French.

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guys


There is absolutely no way Xenoblade sells less than 100k. PERIOD. There's just absolutely no way at all whatsoever.

Not just Opoona. But ARC RISE FANTASIA sold 100k.

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No, seriously. It does not matter with games. Did you play Dragon Quest VIII? That game was as British as it got, and it was not only very successful, but the translation and VA was highly praised. Same with Heavy Rain. A TV show lives and dies on the culture its based off of. Games, not so much.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

The Office is a comedy and British and American comedy are extremely different. America doesn't like the British Office because they aren't used to the humor. Xenoblade isn't a comedy, so it really doesn't matter where it comes from. Stories are generally received commonly everywhere.

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YetAnothrShadow posted...
ChichiriMuyo posted...
Brittish localization is not the same as NA localization regardless of it being in English. It's good enough for me and many others, but it will have the effect of "losing" buyers if the British version is released in the US. Blame that on the American consumer.

Pretty sure most people interested in this game aren't going to care about that.

How about the people who aren't die-hard about it? There certainly aren't 100k+ preorders at this point, because if there were then NoA would have 6 million+ reasons to say "hell yeah, we're releasing Monado." Nintendo is thinking about more than just the people participating in Op RF right now... they're thinking about how that push translates into actual region-wide sales. The vast majority of those sales will have to come from people who aren't all that interested just yet. Some may know what's going on, many more would have to take the plunge without even knowing about the campaign. That latter group... they're the ones who will pass on a game they may actually come to love if they don't think it's tailored to them.

Imagine you're the guy who gets his news from Game Informer 'cause it's free with the Gamestop discount card. Do you know about Xenoblade? Probably not. Is it your type of game on the system you use the most? Also probably not. Are you going to care when you hear that Nintendo half-assed it and used the British localization because they didn't think people would buy the game?. Probably not.

Nintendo absolutely has to look beyond the small group of people really pushing and ask themselves how much of an audience they can really capture. They need to think about whether or not putting resources into the venture is worth it. I honestly think that they are looking at this as a single (or three) products when it should be an image issue above all else. I think they are making a mistake since they really need to reaffirm to gamers that the next console will include their desires. But as of yet, I see no reason to believe that Nintendo should be "sold" on Op RF if they are looking solely at the sales of each individual title.

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"Principally I hate and detest the animal called man, although I heartily love John, Peter, Thomas and so forth" - Jonathan Swift
BT with the victory!

KamikazePotato posted...
No, seriously. It does not matter with games. Did you play Dragon Quest VIII? That game was as British as it got, and it was not only very successful, but the translation and VA was highly praised. Same with Heavy Rain. A TV show lives and dies on the culture its based off of. Games, not so much.

I know I gave it as an example of a successful localisation, but that game's voice acting was pretty much universally panned. That said, that was because the voice actors were attempting American accents, which is difficult when half the cast doesn't have English as a first language. Also, child actors, who thought that was a good idea? But that's massively digressing.

Anyway, it's not like British series have never done well on American TV, mainly on cable.

Oh, also, Muramasa. If that game can sell 250K US in the time when the Wii was at its most hated, Xenoblade can sell. Notable as while Xenoblade might have British English VA, Muramasa kept the voices entirely Japanese (and it's a very, very Japanese game). Non-American localisation is not a problem.

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What does British accented voices have anything to do with anything?

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GuessMyUserName posted...
guys


There is absolutely no way Xenoblade sells less than 100k. PERIOD. There's just absolutely no way at all whatsoever.

Not just Opoona. But ARC RISE FANTASIA sold 100k.

Actually, as of now, it's guaranteed to sell zero copies in North America. Shows what you know. Either way, a lot of games over time were "guaranteed" to sell X copies by the fanbase and many failed. Unless you have 6 million dollars and a contract to Nintendo to hand that over, there's no guarantee of anything. Yes, it ABSOLUTELY SHOULD sell more, but that doesn't mean it will. There aren't enough hands on all of the B8 users to count the number of times a product failed to sell the "guaranteed" numbers. And we don't even know how many actual sales it would take to justify the investment. What if 100k is an abysmal failure? What if 250k is just barely breaking even? Are you going to guarantee 300k sold with absolutely no evidence to back yourself up with? No, you're not. The majority of games that hit the market are financially failures, that means stuff like Opoona and ARF probably lost a fair amount of money. I'd advocate that it's in Nintendo's interest to lose that money if they have to, especially with a new console on the horizon and a track record of not providing enough content, but you can't tell them they are wrong for not flushing cash down the drain.

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BT with the victory!

[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]

As of right now. Any game ever made isn't guaranteed to sell anything.

Obviously no one should localize ever.

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I'm confused, since when has "only" 100k copies of a game not been good enough to warrant a release? Nintendo's published far less successful games with far smaller prospects before, and this game's already freakin' made, all they need to do is localize and distribute the thing. I'm certainly no expert, but the idea that this isn't likely to be a successful business venture just doesn't stack up for me.

Pretty entertaining to see people still defending their gods' actions. :)

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Also disagreeing about the Amazon pre-orders not being enough.

There's tens of thousands there. We don't know how many, but it has to be that much due to the percentage increase (200, 000%, and we can be sure there were at least several pre-orders before then). And that would obviously not be all the sales, as the game is pretty much marketing itself. Believe it or not, yes, this is a big deal in gaming news. Every major site has covered it, including Game Informer (who are very likely to print it, by the way). Add to that marketing, and the game could easily not only break 100K, but probably 300K. This may surprise you, but the Wii is actually rather good for cult game sales, and this one isn't exactly super-cult to begin with.

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Vlado posted...
Pretty entertaining to see people still defending their gods' actions. :)

And yet

Nintendo of Europe is publishing this game in Europe

Square never published, say, Xenogears there.

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KamikazePotato posted...
No, Xenoblade is pretty much guaranteed to sell much better than those. It's simply a more high-profile game. And even without that, after Operation Rainfall, it's got the internet talking about it. Capitalizing on that instant hype would have been very smart. And even without considering either of those, the game is already translated. There is pretty much nothing to lose by releasing it here. None of that is taking into consideration the PR damage this is going to do to them.

Essentially, it's just a mind-numbingly dumb decision in every possible capacity.

I'm not saying that this is the right decision by them. I'm saying that they are simply being practical. Simply releasing the game because a few people want them to isn't necessarily the right decision either. They could fail hard, monetarily. They may simply have prioritized fiscal success per product over general perception. They may simply not want to lose money as a way to tell gamers that they are going to publish every obscure game they want.

I personally believe they are making the wrong decision, but I also believe they are making it based on what they believe are the right decisions. Selling something at a loss is always a terribly difficult decision to make when the only gain from it is marginally raising the perception of a very small segment of the market. If it was obvious that they'd profit, they'd move on it. Right now, all they have to gain is the respect of a very, very small portion of the market at a cost that doesn't buy them additional sales down the road. The next MK will still sell tens of millions whether they localize Xenoblade or not. And how many people would buy MK simply because NoA was cool enough to release Xenoblade? How many will refuse because they don't? It's a tiny number, and if Xenoblade can't come close to profitability it's a sacrifice worth making if all you think about is profit margin.

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"Principally I hate and detest the animal called man, although I heartily love John, Peter, Thomas and so forth" - Jonathan Swift
BT with the victory!

Lightning Strikes posted...
Vlado posted...
Pretty entertaining to see people still defending their gods' actions. :)

And yet

Nintendo of Europe is publishing this game in Europe

Square never published, say, Xenogears there.

I would ask for your point, but it would be a lost cause.

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Except of course Xenoblade will be profitable. They've released smaller games which have sold less than Xenoblade is likely to, and made a profit. They can easily do that just by printing a limited run of say, 100, 000, which would sell out in a few weeks. Nintendo don't even need to localise, just print the games, which would cost very little, especially with a limited run. The game could be very profitable, very easily. Hell, if it wasn't, why would NoE be promoting it so much?

But really, look at a lot of games Nintendo have been pushing lately. Comparatively niche JRPGs outside of Japan. And they've succeeded with them, so why not this one?

In other news, Vlado is willfully dense.

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The thing is, though, releasing an already localized title is very low-risk. If it bombs, they're only out the rather small cost of producing the physical games and doing super-basic regional localization, minus whatever sales they have. However, the sky is basically the limit; it's entirely possible it could turn into a surprise hit. That has to count for something.

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Paratroopa1 posted...
I'm confused, since when has "only" 100k copies of a game not been good enough to warrant a release? Nintendo's published far less successful games with far smaller prospects before, and this game's already freakin' made, all they need to do is localize and distribute the thing. I'm certainly no expert, but the idea that this isn't likely to be a successful business venture just doesn't stack up for me.

For at least as long as this generation has been going on. In some cases, much longer. If you look at Square's Us:Japan sales during the SNES era there's almost no reason for them to skip on FF5 (it'd have sold ~80k, given existing data, and that would have been VERY good at the time for a JRPG) but they did. They weren't the only ones to make such a decision. When we talk about PS1 or PS2, there are certainly far more examples of games with "guaranteed" sales that got passed on. At this point, if a company releases anything that sells less than 100k in a region, regardless of how cheap localization may or may not be, the shareholders will have their CEO's head. Video games aren't niche anymore, and the people with the money expect notable sales. Not just profits, which are obviously the main goal, but a demonstration of future profits to be made.

If Xenoblade can only sell 100k these days considering how many more gamesare sold, it will be seen as a failure by a lot of people. When people mention that Opoona only sold 65k or whatever they forget to consider the fact that Koei (and whoever else was involved) will never try an experiment like that again. Ever. Thats how big of a failure it was for them. For Nintendo to only do slightly better when their stock price is already being battered by the market... yeah, no.

100k is the bare minimum for people not losing their jobs and never having a place in the industry again. 250k is what they should shoot for to please the people who really control their fate (investors), and I don't know if they can make that in NA. NoA probably believes they can't. And yes, that's considering it as a mere localization. That's just a sign of how much it costs to work in the gaming industry these days.

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BT with the victory!

On a more serious note (though not really, because the fact that the game is coming out everywhere else and not here is baffling and throws logic out the window), look at what Nintendo is doing. Look at the 3DS. Sequels and remakes. Now with the Wii-U, they're looking to come out with more sequels, and ports from the PS3 and 360. It's not hard to see why they aren't bothering with Xenoblade. They might just not want to bother actually making a real game for the Wii, and just pump out some Wii Sports/Play/Music/A Mario title when they want more money .

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They might just not want to bother actually making a real game for the Wii

but they already made it

and translated it

it's like, just print the discs and stick 'em in stores

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Yeah I meant they probably don't think it's worth the effort. They probably have plans to reduce shelf space in stores for Wii titles in North America and I guess (going off rumors), DQ9 sold more in Europe than here, so that might be part of the reason.

Anyway, Xenoblade actually looks really fun and I'm going to have to import this I guess.

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Lightning Strikes posted...
In other news, Vlado is willfully dense.

lol, and then you try to convince me you aren't regularly opposing me just for the sake of it.

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I said at the start of this when NoE leaked NoA's intention to not release xenoblade that it's ****ing amazing nintendo still has any "core gamers" left in north america, that statement is still true. If you buy a Wii U or a 3DS, you literally do not care that nintendo just slapped you in the face and said that they care more about the wii fit/just dance/nintendogs crowd than you.

If Xenoblade can only sell 100k these days considering how many more gamesare sold, it will be seen as a failure by a lot of people. When people mention that Opoona only sold 65k or whatever they forget to consider the fact that Koei (and whoever else was involved) will never try an experiment like that again. Ever. Thats how big of a failure it was for them. For Nintendo to only do slightly better when their stock price is already being battered by the market... yeah, no.

this isn't an experimental game that they have to decide whether or not to make though...they...already made it. and translated it into english. they literally have to change the region codes and manufacture it, it shouldn't need to sell anywhere near 300k to profit, and it would likely hit in that range given the hype, lack of other good RPGs on the wii, or really lack of any kind of competition period on the wii. nintendo is just being stupidly dickish here and showing us where their actual priorities lie, iwata and reggie's spiel about trying to get long time gamers back at e3 was 100% BS

. If you buy a Wii U or a 3DS, you literally do not care that nintendo just slapped you in the face and said that they care more about the wii fit/just dance/nintendogs crowd than you.

I care, I just care more about the games that they actually do put out. I'm not going to deprive myself of Mario and Zelda to make some kind of point about this.

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Whilst I do agree it's pretty silly of NoA not to release this I do find it quite funny that people are using its release in Europe as an argument.

Do people not realise that Europe has been absolutely shafted for as long as I can remember on game releases? The fact that games were released in English in the States never stopped companies from going 'lol, not for you UK/Europe'. Even when there was a large demand for the games.

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Do people not realise that Europe has been absolutely shafted for as long as I can remember on game releases? The fact that games were released in English in the States never stopped companies from going 'lol, not for you UK/Europe'. Even when there was a large demand for the games.

we know this happens, doesn't mean it should happen to everyone else as some kind of retribution or whatever sort of "justice" you believe you're getting. I think so long as it is likely to be profitable media should be globalized to the fullest extent possible, in this we have a case where it almost definitely would be and NoA just doesn't want to do it because of some twisted sense of pride, like they think anything they put out has to be a million seller or its a failure or something.

Vlado posted...
Lightning Strikes posted...
In other news, Vlado is willfully dense.

lol, and then you try to convince me you aren't regularly opposing me just for the sake of it.

Reality opposes you on a regular basis. Get over it.

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BT with the victory!

I'm not saying we're getting justice or anything of the sort. I don't even own a wii.

I'm saying that the argument loses a lot of its oomph when you consider that has been happening for years and years and years already. Just because it's now suddenly applicable to America rather than Europe doesn't somehow miraculously make them go 'Oh ****! We already have this game in English anyway, we should release it x/y/z market!'

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you're painting with a rather broad brush, a lot of different gaming companies have snubbed europe in the past for various reasons or non-reasons. just discussing nintendo here, there is little pragmatism to their actions, it's almost like NoA actually has a grudge against long time gamers and is simply unwilling to publish anything except casual shovelware unless it is zelda/mario 9872987429874

I don't really know how people can feel betrayed by Nintendo. I think their track-record since the N64 speaks for itself.

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N64 and gamecube were decent consoles, at the very least, they were far better than the wii has been. if they completely move on to casual shovelware that's fine, I don't like that they're still talking about long time gamers and how they're trying to bring them back if that's the case though, just come out and say that you don't give a **** about us anymore.

Liquid Wind posted...
If Xenoblade can only sell 100k these days considering how many more gamesare sold, it will be seen as a failure by a lot of people. When people mention that Opoona only sold 65k or whatever they forget to consider the fact that Koei (and whoever else was involved) will never try an experiment like that again. Ever. Thats how big of a failure it was for them. For Nintendo to only do slightly better when their stock price is already being battered by the market... yeah, no.

this isn't an experimental game that they have to decide whether or not to make though...they...already made it. and translated it into english. they literally have to change the region codes and manufacture it, it shouldn't need to sell anywhere near 300k to profit, and it would likely hit in that range given the hype, lack of other good RPGs on the wii, or really lack of any kind of competition period on the wii. nintendo is just being stupidly dickish here and showing us where their actual priorities lie, iwata and reggie's spiel about trying to get long time gamers back at e3 was 100% BS

"Experimental" is relative to the current state of the market. A localization getting 100k ten years ago would have been good. 20 years ago it would have been quite successful. Toady, maybe not so much. Especially if they think that they need to localize to American English and not just English.

Now, I've said this probably a half a dozen times or so, but I think it's stupid of them to not go ahead any way. I'll say it again, so maybe you'll listen. It's stupid of them to not go ahead anyway. I've said it almost every single time I've posted. But that's not good enough for you, obviously, so how about a third time in this post alone? It's stupid of them to not do it any way. It's really stupid. Utterly stupid. It's half-a-dozen times stupid. I don't know how many times I can say it before people like you get it. Seven times I'll say I don't agree with the decision because it's not right and it likely undermines their long-term strategy.

But that doesn't mean there aren't reasons why they make that decision, and the primary one is that they don't think there's real money to be made.

Have you ever seen an "it prints money" gif? You notice how Xenoblade isn't featured in them? Do you notice that nothing resembling an RPG has anything more than a minor impact on the possibility of them coming into existence in the first place? It's because games like Xenoblade might not even make money when you take into consideration the administrative/localization/manufacturing costs.

I WANT the game to come out. I WANT it to succeed. I want people to ****ing love it even if I don't give a crap after five minutes of playing it. I want Nintendo to at least try to serve me/you/the hardcore even if it fails. JRPGs were underloved 15 years ago when they were the only thing I'd play and they still are when I don't really care to play them much at all.

However, the money just isn't there. That's what Nintendo is saying right now by not releasing the game in NA. You might buy it, but chances are even if you have a hundred friends not a single one of them will ever play it. Let alone pay for it. If X number of people won't play it, let alone buy it, it's just not worth the effort when dollars and cents are the only way to judge success.

Again, for like the eighth-hundredth time, I disagree, but they've got a business to run. Unless we suddenly throw down more money than they can count in a day it doesn't matter what we think or even where we'll put our money unless they can create a profitable venture at the end of the day.

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"Principally I hate and detest the animal called man, although I heartily love John, Peter, Thomas and so forth" - Jonathan Swift
BT with the victory!

Do you notice that nothing resembling an RPG has anything more than a minor impact on the possibility of them coming into existence in the first place?

pokemon.

which ironically enough is what the nintendo hivemind responded with when I posted that topic about NoA clearly not giving a **** about them! if they have pokemon, they don't care if they get any other good games lmao

I love how Muyo's posts are the longest while also saying the least. I'm not sure this simple, simple issue- cult game garners mass online support and preorders, and does so on a console where much less notable games have sold plenty- is worth that much face-saving.

Nintendo has nothing to lose by releasing it, and tons to lose by telling the hard work of the fans to **** off. Keep screaming "trust Nintendo!" all you want, but there's no reason to suppose that this is anything other than a horrible business/image decision. And do you REALLY think gamers in the States would care about accents? lol

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muramasa sold 250k with japanese audio...zelda continues selling like crack with GIBBERISH voice acting. anyone who thinks british VA is a serious problem is -insane-

You know I've tried to stay a loyal fan this entire time despite the Wii not having games I want. I bought it for Monster Hunter and used the hell out of it for a while after that, Then I bought DKCR at full price like half a year after release just because I was tired of it collecting dust. Now when there are actual games I could justify buying at full price (I actually wanted Last Story more >_>) Nintendo doesn't want to release them. I'm not angry but I am jaded enough to "do naughty things" to my Wii when I get it back and play these games anyway though. I mean they made it easy enough and when it comes to the Wii Nintendo just doesn't deserve my money.

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From: ChichiriMuyo | #080
100k is the bare minimum for people not losing their jobs and never having a place in the industry again.

And you're criticizing other people for making claims without anything to back it up?

haha ok

I mean Half-Minute Hero sold 77k in America and it got an upgraded XBLA rerelease. Deathsmiles sold 86k in America and it got a sequel. But people got blacklisted from the gaming industry forever because of both of these games, of course.

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GuessMyUserName posted...
guys


There is absolutely no way Xenoblade sells less than 100k. PERIOD. There's just absolutely no way at all whatsoever.

Not just Opoona. But ARC RISE FANTASIA sold 100k.

This is probably why it won't come out here.

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