Board 8 > Madame Web reviews: "It is the Cats: The Movie of superhero movies"

(+) Yeah! (+)

I mean, even if you believe that Iron Man was a D-list character pre-2008, he also had the advantages of being played by an A-list actor, superheroes not being a completely saturated genre at the time, and his movie not being complete trash.

I am pretty sure if you asked people on the street nowadays if Iron Man is actually related to the song, a majority would say yes.

Especially because of the animated series!

Leonhart4 posted...

That's the best kind

touche

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS7DKojptPs

I remember thinking back when Iron Man came out that they had completely run out of ideas and were scraping the bottom of the bottom.

People are REALLY overestimating how much the average person would have known anything about him back then. The general audience had no clue who Iron Man was. Maybe a very, VERY small portion of people might have seen the 90s cartoon, but that was it. If you weren't a nerd, you didn't recognize him. Back then there was a massive gulf of difference in recognition between a hero like him compared to stuff like, say Spider-Man, Batman, Wonder Woman, even somewhat "lower-profile" heroes like The Hulk. No one was like "Eh, I think I'll dress as Iron Man for Halloween" if they couldn't come up with an idea for a costume. Saturday Night Live hadn't done a sketch parodying Iron Man. If you asked a person on the street to name superheroes they wouldn't ever think him up. It doesn't matter how much of a headliner he was in the comics, it doesn't matter what cartoons or video games he had appeared in the prior decade, the point is he had NO pop-culture footprint back then, and in that regard, in the eyes of the general public, he was just as well-known as Madame Web.

Anagram posted...

I mean, even if you believe that Iron Man was a D-list character pre-2008, he also had the advantages of being played by an A-list actor, superheroes not being a completely saturated genre at the time, and his movie not being complete trash.

An actor widely perceived as a has-been for his run-ins with the law at the time.

And yeah like I said I feel like they made a Madame Web movie just because they wanted to make a female-led movie after Wonder Woman and especially Captain Marvel were such big hits and Marvel Studios must have decided a bunch of higher-profile heroines or super villainesses were off-limits. Apparently there was going to be a Silver & Black movie but it got re-purposed into a TV series so yikes.

Also fwiw Garfield was going to be given a third Spidey movie until he was let go for criticizing Sony's handling of the franchise.

Man you guys really just assume all comic book characters who aren't Spider-Man, Batman, or Superman are all equally unknown huh

Leonhart4 posted...

Man you guys really just assume all comic book characters who aren't Spider-Man, Batman, or Superman are all equally unknown huh

Of course not. The average person doesn't know those three either. Maybe these some people know Spidey exists thanks to the MCU, but do you really think anyone outside of hardcore comic nerds has ever even heard of Batman or Superman? It'd be generous to call them D-listers.

in this heated debate, the web one clawed back to 13%

Anagram posted...

played by an A-list actor

OK now that one really isn't true. Even before his "issues" RDJ arguably never had previously hit A-list, but he certainly wasn't then. Not an unknown by any means but if he were A-list then by definition Feige wouldn't have had to fight for him.

Grand_Kirby posted...

in the eyes of the general public, he was just as well-known as Madame Web

Iron Man at least had video game appearances in the 90s. Madame Web only appeared in the 90s Spider-Man cartoon (and not until the end, which by that point a lot of fans had likely tuned out)

I put Iron Man on the same level as like Gambit or Beast.

Immediately recognizable to anyone with even basic knowledge of Marvel, has been in some games and cartoons, but probably not known by the public at large.

Grand_Kirby posted...

People are REALLY overestimating how much the average person would have known anything about him back then. The general audience had no clue who Iron Man was. Maybe a very, VERY small portion of people might have seen the 90s cartoon, but that was it. If you weren't a nerd, you didn't recognize him. Back then there was a massive gulf of difference in recognition between a hero like him compared to stuff like, say Spider-Man, Batman, Wonder Woman, even somewhat "lower-profile" heroes like The Hulk. No one was like "Eh, I think I'll dress as Iron Man for Halloween" if they couldn't come up with an idea for a costume. Saturday Night Live hadn't done a sketch parodying Iron Man. If you asked a person on the street to name superheroes they wouldn't ever think him up. It doesn't matter how much of a headliner he was in the comics, it doesn't matter what cartoons or video games he had appeared in the prior decade, the point is he had NO pop-culture footprint back then, and in that regard, in the eyes of the general public, he was just as well-known as Madame Web.

Wouldn't that also apply to the X-Men as well?

So who is the best D-List Superhero

it doesn't matter what cartoons or video games he had appeared in the prior decade, the point is he had NO pop-culture footprint back then

are cartoons and video games not a pop culture footprint

like obviously he didnt have Spider-Man level awareness, but there would still be millions of non-comic readers who knew of him, which puts him on a level clearly above Madame Web who even comic book nerds might not know

LiquidOshawott posted...

So who is the best D-List Superhero

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/4/4b851d47.jpg

UshiromiyaEva posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/4/4b851d47.jpg

Okay I gotta know what that's about.

Gail Simone's Secret Six is a must read.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/6/67ab3f02.jpg

The he/she wonder? The fuck?

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/7/78c79faa.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/1/1b53ae84.jpg

Man I really do need to read that.

You can thank this for Suicide Squad having anything even resembling modern relevancy.

It's been almost 20 years, but Simone's work on Secret Six and Suicide Squad hasn't been remotely touched, and boy have they been chasing it for a long time.

Omnibus is finally coming out in June!

Thanks for these fascinating facts, Google!
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/2/24e2465c.jpg
I did get a laugh out of it though.

UshiromiyaEva posted...

Omnibus is finally coming out in June!

Please remind me so I can check it out.

Maniac64 posted...

Please remind me so I can check it out.

Preorders are out so it's wishlistable.

https://a.co/d/5Bu0usb

Ragdoll is a featured part of my DCURPG campaign and I believe he's quite beloved by my players.

God damn seeing these makes me want to read Secret Six again so bad

Ive said it before on the Mount Rushmore topic, Iron Man and Thor were complete nobodies pre-MCU. My years as a kid were square in the 90s and I loved me some Marvel. Comics, action figures, cardsyou name it. Those two were always Avengers but never had any respect amongst casual fans.

Now? Both are in the top 5% of being recognizable.

UshiromiyaEva posted...

Preorders are out so it's wishlistable.

https://a.co/d/5Bu0usb

I'll make my library buy it and then check it out from them.

scarletspeed7 posted...

Ragdoll is a featured part of my DCURPG campaign and I believe he's quite beloved by my players.

And by Cody and I reading about it!

This is really weird talk about how popular Iron Man was. He was B-/C+ tier. Some people knew who he was, but old shellhead definitely wasn't a household name. Nowhere near Hulk, Wolverine and definitely Spider-Man. Arguably Captain America too.

most_games_r_ok posted...

Nowhere near Hulk, Wolverine and definitely Spider-Man

These are all A tier

I'm confused what's even in your B tier if Iron Man has to be B-. Is it just empty space for more separation from Batman Superman Spiderman

Lopen posted...

These are all A tier

I'm confused what's even in your B tier if Iron Man has to be B-. Is it just empty space for more separation from Batman Superman Spiderman

wonder woman, Hulk, Wolverine probably even Aqua Man depending on what year exactly were talking about. He was definitely a well known one before all the superhero movies because a dude who talks to fish is funny.

an interesting weird data point: this Supermans funeral SNL sketch. Three Marvel characters appear: spider-man, Hulk, and Mr. fantastic?

https://youtu.be/eQvVxY20yOY?si=pyPU4r3KZ8UL_ocD

I think the issue is most of these superheroes are being compared to Iron Man after they already got a movie. Yeah, of course Iron Man wasn't as popular as Spider-man with people on the street. Spider-man had a movie franchise to introduce him to a wider audience.

I think among fans of 'nerd culture', who know about more comic book characters than the ones who just appear in movies, Iron Man was a solid B tier.

Fwiw I had heard of Iron Man before his movie, but I didn't really know anything about him. And apparently the MCU version has like nothing to do with his previous portrayals and was more of a self-insert for RDJ comparatively.

Actually I feel like A LOT of actors playing comic book heroes nowadays are kind of just playing themselves. I get that vibe out of Scarlett Johansson as Black Widow, Chris Evans as Captain America, Chris Pratt as Star-Lord, Ryan Reynolds as Deadpool, Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman, and Brie Larson as Captain Marvel to name but a few. I personally have no problem with it though, more of an observation. If anything I find all of the celebrities in question likeable enough I find it more of a positive, regardless of the odd controversy regarding some of them.

idk I think it makes sense why Iron Man didn't get a movie before the likes of Punisher, Daredevil, and Ghost Rider

I knew of Iron Man but also thought they were really scraping the bottom of the barrel with him when it was released

i think the comparison of iron man to B-list X-men is apt. and FWIW i think it's probably fair to say spiderman, batman, and superman form a tier of their own above wolverine and hulk and joker and venom and storm. even then you might have a third tier with the likes of wonder woman and cyclops, which is arguably above the tier with iron man and say, gambit

Storm above Wonder Woman is super random and wrong.

Definitely giving Storm too much credit.

I think Storm has a great chance of being the second most well known X-Men character... either her or Cyclops or Prof X

wouldn't go that far but

Would put Storm below Wolverine, Cyclops, Professor X, Magneto, and Beast at least. She's above Gambit level I think, which is still decent in general by X-Men standards. No doubt she's the most well known female X-Men though.....with the movies now though that might be Mystique just through them pushing her so damn hard.

I would say the "not Wolverine" tier would be Magneto, Professor X, Cyclops, and Storm, maybe in that order.

Spider-man was very well known and mainstream even before the films. Easily the most popular Marvel superhero, he's always been in a tier of his own.

Eh, I would definitely put her above Beast, she has a lot more relevance in the old X Men movies and MVC and is featured way more than him

unless your argument is something like the McAvoy films are more prominent

I thought all of these comparisons were meant to be pre-movie.

Would say Storm is above Beast today, yes. Not in the 90s. She's a woman that isn't Wonder Woman so pre-2000s means she's getting no casual play at all.

Beast was on some of those lunch boxes.

yeah, storm probably could be in the third tier, but my point overall is that there's room for multiple tiers before you hit iron man territory

SeabassDebeste posted...

yeah, storm probably could be in the third tier, but my point overall is that there's room for multiple tiers before you hit iron man territory

Eh, nah. I don't think Iron Man is noticeably below the second tier X-Men.

Like if we're talking "general public recognition" the X-Men have the advantage of the animated series and the movies.

But if we're talking nerds like us (which is generally what these tiers refer to) Iron Man isn't multiple tiers down.

SeabassDebeste posted...

yeah, storm probably could be in the third tier, but my point overall is that there's room for multiple tiers before you hit iron man territory

Iron Man was not a complete nobody, unless your position is that every single X-Men was more known than the non-Hulk Avengers which is ridiculous

Leonhart4 posted...

Eh, nah. I don't think Iron Man is noticeably below the second tier X-Men.

Like if we're talking "general public recognition" the X-Men have the advantage of the animated series and the movies.

But if we're talking nerds like us (which is generally what these tiers refer to) Iron Man isn't multiple tiers down.

Why wouldn't we be talking general public recognition when it comes to picking a superhero for a movie?

Edit: And even then, the Marvel characters who probably had the biggest disparity between "nerd" and "general" recognition in the past would be more like Punisher, Cable, and Deadpool.