Board 8 > transience presents: the top 75 matches in contest history: part 2, the top 25.

(+) Yeah! (+)

good work!
---

Whenever I see someone put in a 50.05% pick in the Oracle for a toss up match I always wonder if they are doing it as a reference to this match and Mario vs Crono 2k2. There aren't that many matches where I remember the result down to 2 decimal places but I'll never forget 50.05%.
---

I've made many 50.05% picks intentionally!
---

So have I!
---

Team Rocket Elite posted...

Whenever I see someone put in a 50.05% pick in the Oracle for a toss up match I always wonder if they are doing it as a reference to this match and Mario vs Crono 2k2. There aren't that many matches where I remember the result down to 2 decimal places but I'll never forget 50.05%.

Every single time.

I don't take the oracle seriously though. I just use random numbers.
---

https://imgur.com/gallery/qsLwiZX
---

As someone who wasn't there - what was the justification for running the poll past the time limit? Because that seems absurd.
---

Regarding Sonic vs. Samus, Sonic wasn't the heavy favorite. 31% of brackets picked Samus, and keep in mind both Sonic and Samus both only had about 60% bracket support for their victories the previous round. Samus also had better odds for winning the contest... 1:36 as opposed to 1:45 for Sonic, I believe. And I thought Samus was going to beat Sonic fairly easily...

But yeah, the fact that it was a nailbiter was amazing, because we've never seen such a match before. I remember people saying a 50/50 match was almost impossible.
---

the theory has always been to check for cheating.
---

Yeah but wouldn't you just pause the poll to check for cheating instead of breaking the rules

The entire thing seems like incredible incompetence on part of the administration and if someone said that Crono is really the one who won that match, I wouldn't disagree
---

Polls didn't always start and stop on the hour. In fact, it was common for the next match to start as much as 15 minutes early or more if the previous match was a stomping. It isn't like today where polls last 24 hours to the second.
---

Team Rocket Elite posted...

Polls didn't always start and stop on the hour. In fact, it was common for the next match to start as much as 15 minutes early or more if the previous match was a stomping. It isn't like today where polls last 24 hours to the second.

Man. Reading stuff like this really puts modern-day complaints into perspective.
---

KamikazePotato posted...

As someone who wasn't there - what was the justification for running the poll past the time limit? Because that seems absurd.

Well, the added time was always on the front end. The matches started early and the stated reason IIRC was to let us move on to the next match when the previous one was obviously decided.

I don't recall the exact way this always played out because I don't think it ever remotely mattered until that match, but I think they played out much the same way (ran until midnight even if they started at 11:45 or whatever unless it too was a blowout etc) just... again, it never mattered until - of course - Mario/Crono of all matches.
---

7.



The single greatest mistake that has ever been made by our contest overlords is division by era. Spring 2004 has a good argument for being the greatest contest we ever had, but it would have been unquestionably the greatest contest ever if we had a truly random bracket instead of very clear matchups like Zelda/Donkey Kong or whatever.

I bring this up because FF7 vs. Ocarina of Time was the extremely obvious final to this contest, and it happened in round 4. Division Final: Final Fantasy VII vs. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of time. Come on. I've heard people say that this was an obvious result and I completely disagree. FF7 was what everyone picked in their bracket because Cloud won the previous contest and because gamefaqs is FF7 heaven. But it wasn't obvious, not during the contest. I brought up the all-Zelda final four in the Wind Waker writeup. It's not like people forgot that FF7 was in the contest. Ocarina was killing games. So was FF7, of course. The bracket was stacked getting here (again, due to division by era and poor bracket placement). Let's run down the results coming in:

FF7:

86% on Suikoden 2
80% on Xenogears
71% on Metal Gear Solid

Ocarina:

86% on Fallout 2
76% on Mario 64
73% on Goldeneye

Ocarina is no slouch here. Most people saw the MGS result and figured the contest was over, but Goldeneye was super underrated. Remember, a year later we did that List thing is Goldeneye was #7, MGS #8. These are all wonky results because FF7 likely SFF'd MGS, but look at what Ocarina did to Mario 64 and Goldeneye. Those are killer numbers.

This match was pretty evenly split in Oracle too: the consensus was FF7 with 51%, with 40 picks for FF7 and 18 for Ocarina. Everyone expected a super close matchup here. I completely reject anyone who says that this match was obvious.

Anyway, this match ended up being a bit of a snoozer when compared to other matches in the top 25. Importance doesn't equal drama. It didn't get as many votes as you would expect -- if I remember right, I think there was something with a redesign and poll placement having shifted during that? This should be the biggest vote total of all time.

This match spelled the end of Zelda for best game ever. In 5 days, Zelda went from 11-0 to 11-4. It's crazy how fast the Zelda hype train derailed. I might complain about bracket placement in 2004, but it sure made for some incredible drama and buildup. FF7 would go on to blitz Melee so bad that it made division 128 seem trivial, and then put down Chrono Trigger with ease in the final.

FF7 winning here validated a lot - people picking FF7 on The List, picking Cloud to win the 2004 character battle, picking FF to win the series contest, the 2009 game contest -- you can go on. A lot of bad picks have come from undying faith in FF7. I've always wondered at what point Ocarina overtook FF7 -- I believe it's somewhere around 2006, but you can make an argument for 2005 as well with the Nintendo boost. The people who live forever on the boards back FF7 pretty strong but the overall site has certainly shifted that way since 05. It's a fun thought exercise.

I'll end with a fun story: I was reading the popular gaming forum Resetera a couple of weeks ago, and someone randomly made an FF7 vs. Ocarina poll. I don't usually vote in twitter polls or other gaming forum polls, because who cares, but I instantly clicked on it and voted Final Fantasy VII because that's just what I do. These two games will duel until the end of time and I will vote for FF7 every time. (Ocarina won 66%-34%. Because Ocarina wins this poll literally everywhere. Except for gamefaqs, in 2004.)
---

Just checked the Guru - 17% of people picked OoT to win the Games Contest in 2009. That's kind of nuts considering how character/company strength had trended in the years building up to then.
---

While I don't think the match was obvious, I do think FFVII was rightly a pretty strong favorite. The logic of the day, again IIRC, which may have been wrongly reasoned but the results papered over it was that Link was drawing his strength from all the Zelda games and especially some highly powered ones like LttP instead of it just being all OoT. Whereas, Cloud and Seph were all FFVII so goddamn it must be a total beast.

Might be the only time - outside 2002 - where Zelda was (rightly, too!) the underdog pre-contest. I know people clung to this result to justify things like Series and 2009 but the writing had been on the wall in all those cases (maybe Series gets a pass.)
---

yeah, I'm on board with that. I had the same thought and picked FF7 to win the contest. I just mean that during the contest, there was a lot of question marks there.
---

I actually bit on FF7 > RE4 in the BGE 2009 finals, because who the fuck knew four way logic, especially when LttP, OoT, and FF7 were pretty much guaranteed to be three of the four games there, so betting on something from the newer side of the bracket to also sneak its way past the two Zelda games SFFing each other to death wasn't the worst idea in the world, especially when you consider that's how FFX made it there to begin with, riding OoT's coattails past Melee and Pokemon RBY.
---

xp1337 posted...

KamikazePotato posted...

As someone who wasn't there - what was the justification for running the poll past the time limit? Because that seems absurd.

Well, the added time was always on the front end. The matches started early and the stated reason IIRC was to let us move on to the next match when the previous one was obviously decided.

I don't recall the exact way this always played out because I don't think it ever remotely mattered until that match, but I think they played out much the same way (ran until midnight even if they started at 11:45 or whatever unless it too was a blowout etc) just... again, it never mattered until - of course - Mario/Crono of all matches.

There were no other matches in Summer 2003 that went to the wire. Magus/Ganondorf was probably the closest and Magus was 600 votes up and rising again by the last hour.
---

6.



Man. Maaaaaaaaaaaan. This wasn't a contest match, it was an internet war.

We've all accepted that gamefaqs is dying. Our vote totals are about 20% of what they used to be since gamefaqs is this beautifully antiquated website. Text walkthroughs have long since passed video games by, but here we are, still doing our thing because that's our little corner on the block. One look at this site's forums really shows how much we like old time-y things, and the audience has either embraced that or moved on.

When something like reddit or twitter or tumblr comes for our contests, we're largely helpless to do anything about it. It happened in 2004 when battle.net came for gamefaqs, and it made a mark but didn't blow up the contest as we know it. Draven, though, put on performances that we've not seen before or since. This was a full scale invasion.

And gamefaqs responded, and responded hard. It's fucking wild that we decided to defend Link, ruiner of competition, against the outside world. But he's our conqueror, not some other site's. Draven came in and did what Draven does, putting Link down 6000 votes by 7am. It wasn't quite on the scale of the MMX match, but it was Link.

Morning came and Link did what Link has done in the mornings for 10 years: he killed his opponent. Link's legitimately never lost a day vote. He's like 83-0. Suddenly, Link was legitimately making a comeback. Draven seemed like he had, somehow, run out of votes. Link cut off a thousand votes in an hour and it was down to 4k with 12 hours to go.

And then the site (mostly) went down for like an hour and a half. Maybe a DDOS? Maybe not? The timing is awfully convenient. Allen said he did everything he could to identify what had happened and it didn't look like one, and I believe him when he says he can't find it, but who knows. Ceej also said he couldn't identify vote stuffing in the Starcraft/Melee match and there clearly was some of that. That kind of thing doesn't just happen. Draven pushed the match back to a 5k lead.

Then the amazing happened: somehow, a lot of the internet noticed what was going on. You had guys like Jennifer Hale and David Hayter tweeting to vote for Link. What?! Link tore at the lead until the end of the poll and came up 765 votes short. He needed 30 more minutes. 30 minutes that was lost. If Mario/Crono 2 was illegitimate, this was worse. And this was the de facto final of the contest. The Mario/Crono 2 winner was always going to get killed by Sephiroth.

It's just a wild match. The craziest thing is that it happened in 2013, when contest interest was at an all-time low. There was so many wild things that happened here that is on a level beyond anything else we've ever seen. Something happened with Allen's wife, using his reddit account, talking to the league of legends subreddit? Just, what? This whole thing was like one big fever dream. For 24 hours, an internet war happened and, either by accident or by cheating, Draven had managed to win. The site didn't have the security holes that 2003/2004 gamefaqs polls did, but a DDOS is a DDOS. And it's impossible to know if that's what happened here or not.

From a certain perspective, this is the greatest gamefaqs match of all time, and from another perspective it's the worst match we've ever had, a total perversion of what these polls have always been. I love that this match riled up so many emotions so many years after the fact. The way it happened sucked, and if Link had pulled this off, holy crap. But after watching 2018 limp along with characters going up 300 votes and holding on to win the match, there's certainly part of me that thinks, "gimme that Link/Draven enthusiasm one more time."
---

transience posted...

You had guys like Jennifer Hale and David Hayter tweeting to vote for Link. What?!

Wrong match, they came in for Draven/Snake/Samus.

Link/Draven featured ExTha (I think) getting pro wrestlers to rally Link.

Mario/Crono II and Link/Shepard/Draven are without a doubt the Top 2 matches in contest history. I side with Link/Draven taking the crown but it's damn close, and you're right that it's both the best and worst match.
---

oh, was it? everything with Draven is a fever dream
---

transience posted...

Because Ocarina wins this poll literally everywhere. Except for gamefaqs, in 2004.)

BGE was why I came to this board, and this result is why I stayed. People know the truth.
---

xp1337 posted...

Link/Draven featured ExTha (I think) getting pro wrestlers to rally Link

That was me and Trent Baretta. It even worked for a hot second until the DDoS and insane Draven rallying.
---

I was so checked out of the contest by that point, I don't even think I logged in during the final. After the Draven/X/Ryu match, the contest lost all meaning to me
---

Yeah, Link/Shepard/Draven was Link beasting during the morning, then after the DDOS it became a desperate Board 8 fueled counter-rally attempt to take him down. The pro-wrestler thing was the most surreal part of it to me. That actually happened.

The board was a bit more organized (and mad) by the time of Draven/Snake/Samus and tried rallying the VAs. Hayter had the "draggy crow" comment and IIRC when someone asked why Hale was rallying for Snake instead of Samus - who she voiced - she was like "lol." And it looked like it might work because the rally topic was taken down on the LoL reddit, but then they put it back up with a sticky and the very next update was Draven just absolutely stomping on Snake's throat and the match was immediately over at that point.
---

Nelson_Mandela posted...

xp1337 posted...

Link/Draven featured ExTha (I think) getting pro wrestlers to rally Link

That was me and Trent Baretta. It even worked for a hot second until the DDoS and insane Draven rallying.

Ah, I knew it was one of you I just couldn't recall which. My bad.
---

xp1337 posted...

transience posted...

You had guys like Jennifer Hale and David Hayter tweeting to vote for Link. What?!

Wrong match, they came in for Draven/Snake/Samus.

Link/Draven featured ExTha (I think) getting pro wrestlers to rally Link.

Mario/Crono II and Link/Shepard/Draven are without a doubt the Top 2 matches in contest history. I side with Link/Draven taking the crown but it's damn close, and you're right that it's both the best and worst match.

Agreed. The single most fun day I've ever had here. I remember cancelling plans and drinking beer alone while refreshing my browser over and over. Pure madness.
---

5 left.

Mario/Cloud
Mario/Crono 2002
Link/Cloud 2003
2007 Final
Link/Mario 2002?
---

red sox 777 posted...

5 left.

Mario/Cloud
Mario/Crono 2002
Link/Cloud 2003
2007 Final
Link/Mario 2002?

transience posted...

59. Link/Mario (2002)

I'm going to guess Mario/Samus 2005 is the other one.
---

Oh, yeah Mario/Samus 2005 is probably it then. I guess it deserves it for the debate it generated for 13 years.
---

Most importantly, congrats to Trent Barreta for the success he's had since 2013.
---

Predicted MWC reactions:

Mario/Cloud 2002:

Mario stuffing, totally outrageous, the contest lost all credibility.

Mario/Crono 2002:

Mario stuffing again and getting away with it again, CJayC has the gall to accuse Crono of doing what Mario did, an outrage.

Mario/Samus 2005:

Nothing to see here, move along.

2007 final:

Stuffing. Stuffing. More stuffing.

Link/Cloud 2003:

The most important match in contest history.
---

The LoL subreddit sticking the rally topic was nuts. That's almost certainly against their rules but League people always have to win.
---

Jennifer Hale voiced Naomi Hunter and Emma Emmerich. Not too surprising she'd go for Snake when it didn't seem like Samus could win.
---

I wish I had positive emotions about Link/Draven but all it does is make me furious.

this result is why when people are like "oooh look at how good of a job Allen did" when he put in pretty much the bare minimum for this last contest, I have to laugh and can't give him any credit. This match should've ended with Link capping the biggest comeback of all time to slay the outside evil but that [redacted] worthless piece of [redacted] who runs the site didn't do his job.

The match should've been re-started, or extended for an hour. DDOS or not, Link lost an hour and a half of his best time when he was absolutely slaughtering the poll. Without that assist, Draven loses.

And don't let me forget the steaming garbage piles who voted for Shepard, either. They suck.

Everything about that match sucks and if you still like SBAllen after it you should feel bad.
---

Everyone who voted for Shepard is a hero who doesn't back down from their ideals thank you very much
---

It was better for Link for the match to end the way it did. It's gives him a plausible excuse for losing. If Link actually tried to pass Draven, Link would have gotten destroyed.
---

I will say if it makes you feel better, Extha, as a dirty Commander Shepard voter I would've voted Draven had Shepard not been there. So Shepard did some good.
---

Draven winning a character battle is not in the TOP 75??
---

@NowItsAngeTime Man didn't expected that. I thought maybe 2-3 people would respond. But there are hundreds of messages there! Of course the sad thing is that most people say that Gamefaqs still exist and it was good in the old times but that is.

Also say whatever you want but Link/Draven/Shepard will be either the best or the 2nd best match of the contests for me. The drama people! The DDOS attack! Allen's Wife! Wrestlers! So much butthurt topics! Say you hate it but compared to this contest where we had Mario/Samus fighthing and in the last hour there was nothing I prefer this excitement.

Fun times.
---

transience posted...

6.



Man. Maaaaaaaaaaaan. This wasn't a contest match, it was an internet war.

"

this should be higher. At least number 5.
---

Link vs Draven and Shepard in 2013 was one of the best matches of all time
---

seeing these old matches again with writeups is reminding me how much better those days were(both the times and the matches compared to 2018 matches)
---

@SuperNiceDog True that. Yeah there was toxicity which was at a really high level. BUT nobody can deny all the excitement and all these topic/posts that there were made. I remember when the Admin answered I even send a PM to him! Like everyone else that did the same here I guess!
---

ExThaNemesis posted...

And don't let me forget the steaming garbage piles who voted for Shepard, either. They suck.

the only thought i have about LSD is "man, i wish i had been here to vote for Shepard"
---

I'd rather Link lose cleanly than lose because of a DDOS. It taints the entire contest.

This match is important but it clearly sucked. It nearly killed contests on the whole. It's important like ET the Extraterrestrian is important for gaming, on how much it damaged the whole thing.

That said I did had a lot of fun for those 24 hours, I just don't think the actual crap that happened was worth it.
---

I do wonder what happens if Link takes the lead. if Undertale is any clue, Draven laughs and goes nuts. but he was also drying up and there was already 150k votes, so it's hard to say.
---

5.



This was the original contest miracle. Think about it: Mario just beat Cloud but was in a fight for his life against Crono? If I had been watching 2002 closely, this would have probably been the most shocking contest result of all time for me. Crono was already on a miracle run with beating Lara and Snake. But Mario? After he beat Cloud?

This is the birth of our greatest contest rivalry. It hasn't been a rivalry since 06 or so, but the four matches from 02-05 really defined contest lore. There's three more if you want to talk about the spring 2004 matchups, including CT/Mario 3 which didn't make this list but felt like a really big deal at the time. It was Crono and Mario's biggest games facing off yet again.

I wish we had match updates or something here. The oral histories that are out there, plus Ceej, say that Crono stuffed the hell out of this poll, and a few votes were removed. Who knows exactly how many -- 2002 feels like the dark ages. No oracle, no match updates, no Guru, no nothing.

Chance are the stuffing was due to the Mario/Cloud result. I don't let pesky facts like that get in the way of a narrative though. This match elevated Crono into the very top tier which is really where he belonged given where Square would go in 2003 and 2004. Maybe he doesn't belong to at 49.95 on Mario, but I love that he got there. It made 2003 better. I doubt Mario and Crono get matched up in 03 and 04 if not for 02. You can tell that even CJayC liked that this was a thing.
---

xp1337 posted...

And it looked like it might work because the rally topic was taken down on the LoL reddit, but then they put it back up with a sticky and the very next update was Draven just absolutely stomping on Snake's throat and the match was immediately over at that point.

I was reading through the old CBIX Stat Topics (because I had somehow lost the trend charts for that contest and cn's site was down and had been down for a while), and I had totally forgotten that somebody lied to the Subreddit admin that B8 had deliberately created and mass downvoted a rally topic so it wouldn't appear high on the Subreddit (since you could only have one rally topic at a time). The admin believed him and pinned the rally topic to the top. I think Draven had like a 1200 vote update on the very next update and we all knew it was sadly over.
---