Board 8 > The Mercenaries CE build review topic part 2

(+) Yeah! (+)

Perhaps if the Valve ability were ported to someone like, say, The Heavy, who'd be a very high 3/week as minigun is really good for low but he has absolutely nothing else.

also trdl doing god's work we gettin' both best girls in.

Kamekguy posted...

Perhaps if the Valve ability were ported to someone like, say, The Heavy, who'd be a very high 3/week as minigun is really good for low but he has absolutely nothing else.

also trdl doing god's work we gettin' both best girls in.

p much

that or give Gordon some seriously heavy duty abilities to make him more valuable

(though I think Heavy has good ability fodder. "CRY SOME MORE!" is tailormade for something that incites leader rage!)
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Give Gordon something about poison headcrabs.

Fucking poison headcrabs. Fuck all of them.
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trdl23 posted...

Give Gordon something about poison headcrabs.

Fucking poison headcrabs. Fuck all of them.

Actually, I think I have an idea. But I'll save it for when we get to him.
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Clearly no one wants to talk about Crash, so let's move on

Time for Creeper: http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/103727029/Creeper

Though not much has changed.

A possible alternate character upgrade would be a new creeper spawns in after 30 seconds or something.

Anyone?

I think the percentages on Aggressive Mining Tactics could stand to be buffed a little bit too.

Please?

Creeper's results ability has average expected gold generation of 6.2gp per use. Given he has an upkeep and the recharge/injury I've always felt that ability was fairly weak as written. The solution isn't actually to up the gold generation as I think econ abilities should be weak, and there are fixes to make it better that make him more fun to use. The big glaring issue is it actively works against his pre-battle in that you are which makes it not fun to use.

I feel like his results should actually be a passive or a trigger that goes off when you explode a terrain or an ability upgrade.

What I'd really like for it to be is a minigame thing. You upgrade it and his pre-battle becomes something you can declare in secret at the cost of an extra week of recharge, and if you pick the terrain that your opponent bids on you get random gp or something. I dunno. Just saying as is the results + pre-battle interaction is poorly designed.
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The only instance where econ should be strong is if it encourages aggro play - ie dare to risk something and win off it

anything that lets you sit there and collect the emone is prolly busted - this is why Morrigan's Friendly is way closer to being 'acceptable econ' (even if it's not perfect) than like, IDK, M1 Tech Mastermind or whatever, for example. Even so it probably shouldn't work on forfeits, tho.
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I'm in the opposite camp; I like strong econ as long as that's literally all a character has to offer.
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trdl23 posted...

I'm in the opposite camp; I like strong econ as long as that's literally all a character has to offer.

strong econ is shit for the same reason black lotus is toxic to game health in mtg in spite of doing nothing but efficient mana

turns out acceleration leads to degenerate game states, especially if there is nothing your opponent can do to stop it!
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

trdl23 posted...

I'm in the opposite camp; I like strong econ as long as that's literally all a character has to offer.

strong econ is shit for the same reason black lotus is toxic to game health in mtg in spite of doing nothing but efficient mana

turns out acceleration leads to degenerate game states, especially if there is nothing your opponent can do to stop it!

Well I don't think they should be released early. A lotus on turn 8 is still good, but way less powerful than turn 1.
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So do you have any suggestions for Creeper, Kan?

Skyridge87 posted...

So do you have any suggestions for Creeper, Kan?

I generally agree with Lopen that Creeper's two abilities are working at crosspurposes. I think making the HISSSS a mindgame that pays off based on whether you pick the terrain the opponent wanted to use makes sense - something like 'half of the bid is awarded to you and taken from the leader' after a postrosters reveal, maybe?
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This means Creeper needs a new ability on that note

I leave that up to people who played minecraft, cuz I didn't
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Creeper starts 15 feet from enemy team and is electrified.

Next
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As for the abilities conflicting with one another, what about an ability upgrade that gives the first ability the gp yield, and let Agressive Mining Tactics essentially just be a results version of the ability? Either that, or just give the gp yield to the base ability and make an entirely new one. Though I'm at a lack for ideas, which is weird considering minecraft has plenty of concepts for abilities.

giving the GP yield to the base ability as an upgrade is my suggestion, yes, based on what the opponent bid
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Anyway, this should probably be shelved for now. Time for Crono

http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/111441955/Crono

I'm not super happy with this build, considering I essentially made a better version of Dual Tech in Dust's build. The upgrade ability is something I thought of when I was toying with the idea of characters from the same game having similar themes, with Chrono Trigger's being boosted recharge rates. But yeah, this probably just needs to be scrapped and built from the ground up.

Basically there's a few major Things (TM) that are iconic to Crono:

-Dual/Triple Techs. He's the face of Chrono Trigger and thus game mechanics fit him best.
-His heroic sacrifice. Not many MCs die like that.
-General time traveling hijinks.
-His contest history.

Out of these, I think his heroic sacrifice is the most personal and best one to keep as an ability. Dual/Triple Techs can be an argued damaging ability using specified attacks from each character (see: Master Hand), or a character upgrade allowing characters to use a custom 'Tech in battle together (maybe both?). You could also bring back Epoch and have it only steal from the unbought pool. These seem like the best options, blanking out on a fun ability based on contests.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

-His heroic sacrifice. Not many MCs die like that.

I've actually always had a pet peeve with this because Crono doesn't MAKE any sort of heroic sacrifice. When Lavos appears, Crono steps up to fight him and just gets killed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpkjM5nYtZs

He didn't buy time for the others to get away, he didn't land a stalwart blow on Lavos, he just... dies. That doesn't make the scene bad, but it's not what I'd call a heroic sacrifice from the hero. It's more of a huge "oh shit" moment to show that the main antagonist isn't fucking around.

well honestly it's hard to name it Crono Sacrifices Himself And Gets Bodied (Trigger) without it sounding, well, dumb
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It's a heroic sacrifice because Crono is literally urged by The Entity to step up (which is arguably the planet). It also caps off the tragedy of the first half of Chrono Trigger as well. I suggest reading through this Reverse Design if you want a better explanation, I am like super tired tonight so I may not explain it well: http://thegamedesignforum.com/features/reverse_design_CT_1.html
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Also I think Epoch with M4 mercs is probably fine (for a PAST game). Power level for lowbies in m4 is pretty much balanced across the board outside of some misnomers
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greengravy294 posted...

well honestly it's hard to name it Crono Sacrifices Himself And Gets Bodied (Trigger) without it sounding, well, dumb

lol

gj gravy summing it up way better than I could
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thats my specialty
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Anyone have better ideas for Dual Tech? I honestly think just giving two characters a dual tech they can use in battle isn't too great. I think it would work better as some sort of variation on Rikku's Mix, which is what I tried to do with that build.

Also, I think a revised Epoch such as the following could work:

Past: Available mercs pool
Present: A character not rostered that week from another team
Future: Revealed mercs that haven't been released yet.

Skyridge87 posted...

Anyone have better ideas for Dual Tech? I honestly think just giving two characters a dual tech they can use in battle isn't too great. I think it would work better as some sort of variation on Rikku's Mix, which is what I tried to do with that build.

It's too complicated

Just make it a damaging ability because it will get shitloads of respect
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honestly i feel as if mercs is a really self referential thing. and this is coming from a newcomer. segregating it completely from the other games just doesn't sit right. so i think m4 would be fine to draw from. but thats just me.
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Skyridge87 posted...

Present: A character not rostered that week from another team

This wouldn't work as you'd need every other match to resolve.

Also Dual Tech is garbage. When you look at what it actually does, you're getting very little for what you spend on it. Like consider just using the two abilities on the same guy WITHOUT dual tech and there aren't too many situations where it actually helps, and it's complicated. Rikku's Mix is complicated as well but at least it did useful things.
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Lopen posted...

Also Dual Tech is garbage. When you look at what it actually does, you're getting very little for what you spend on it. Like consider just using the two abilities on the same guy WITHOUT dual tech and there aren't too many situations where it actually helps, and it's complicated. Rikku's Mix is complicated as well but at least it did useful things.

Yes, I know. I said as much. You seemed to miss the part where I asked if anyone had any suggestions to make it actually usable.

On the other hand, I had an idea myself today.

Dual Tech (Start of Battle, Recharge X) - An ally on Crono's team can expend a usable ability to perform a dual tech with Crono instead of the ability's normal effect. The result is determined by the recharge of the ability expended:

[insert effects here]

Dual Tech then goes on recharge for a number of weeks equal to the recharge of the expended ability

I was ready to start a list, but then I looked at the Chrono Trigger wiki and literally the only non-damaging Dual Tech Crono has is Aura Whirl. So that could be something like removing ability effects/ SoB damage, I guess. Then there are the obvious start of battle damage option and KO option, but some more creative ones would be cool. Here's the list: http://chrono.wikia.com/wiki/Tech#Double_Techs

And the obvious ability upgrade would be to let a third person join in for a triple tech.

I feel like just making it the raw option of "performing a start of battle attack with x" works out just fine, just give Dual Tech a recharge on Crono equal to the upkeep of the mercenary minus one, two on upgrade, minimum of 0. Potentially has to base it on a list of Crono's already established Double Techs, with them serving the role of the other mercenary using their closest applicable spell. Saves the issue of burning two abilities, at least - would make Crono impressively unviable at the beginning.

Mostly because I imagined Crono using Ridley as a sword in place of Robo and thought "I want that".

I really think it'd just be simpler to say that every three weeks the leader can have Crono and an ally perform a double tech using X and Y preselected attacks/spells/whatever as components and the results are up to the voters. Allow it to specify whether it hits an ally or enemy so you can argue healing/protective/whatever techs if you want.
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Kamekguy posted...

"performing a start of battle attack with x"

That could easily just be one of the options though. "Chrono and the merc perform X-Strike on the target".

I really just prefer leaving it up to player interp off of two base components because I feel like it's just much cooler, tbqh

like it's a rare opportunity to spark arguments and debate that will not lead to an ability being useless because you can't disrespect Confuse + Ultima to be less than its component parts, for example.
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Did you say that? I'm not sure you did. Like I know you said "this needs work" but I felt like maybe explaining why the ability was bad to begin with clearly would prevent such mistakes from being made again. Like I have no idea why that was even thought as an ability.

Anyway I think an ability that burns two abilities to function has to be really good-- that new dual tech still isn't good enough to merit it, either, for that matter. Kamek's idea is probably the best. Pick a dual tech Crono has to use with a merc on his team and they do it the best they can vs one merc. Upgrade for triple techs. Crono + two actual good mages using Delta Force it's money man.
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While I agree that it COULD be an option, I just don't like the mechanic of it burning two abilities. Really do feel like "less is more" and the chance to specify specific attack combinations is more useful than "Aura Whirl does this, Thundercat Attack does this".

Lopen posted...

Kamek's idea is probably the best.

I glazed over the part suggesting it come from Chrono's actual Dual Tech list. I definitely prefer that to "new attack up to voter interp".

Let me please interject with something:

Simple abilities are fine. Mercs makes for wonderful shenanigans, true, but not every character has to be Charles Barkley or Uncle Sensei level of wackiness and/or complexity.

I remember my Big Band build (which I still need to add to the wiki) had complaints about the SoB Brass Knuckles damage + knockback was "too simple." I don't think that's a problem. There's something to be said for something simple and clean, or at least cleaner.

Tr;dl don't waste your time making Dual Tech super complex. Don't make another Bowser Party. KISS.
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I think it's OK to have bad builds too!! Not every build will be bought. Like Octodad sat unbought for like 40 game weeks and MAYBE got a single rework then The End.
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greengravy294 posted...

I think it's OK to have bad builds too!! Not every build will be bought. Like Octodad sat unbought for like 40 game weeks and MAYBE got a single rework then The End.

That's because the build had obvious glaring mistakes that the admins didn't want to correct

It's a particularly bad example to use because they were borderline typographical errors - using 'a mercenary' instead of 'an enemy' for example. I would have bought Octodad if he'd be remade as multiple admins agreed he shoulda been remade when I discussed the build with them.
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Skyridge87 posted...

Lopen posted...

Kamek's idea is probably the best.

I glazed over the part suggesting it come from Chrono's actual Dual Tech list. I definitely prefer that to "new attack up to voter interp".

The problem is that you're basically always gonna get a One Trick To Rule Them All with that. Abilities that are solved equations are really boring.
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Make it like Mario's Spinoff where you have to use all of em once obv.
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Lopen posted...

Make it like Mario's Spinoff where you have to use all of em once obv.

I would actually not be terribly opposed to doing this and then giving some of them a lessened recharge, actually. Plus it's a nice thematic counterpoint to Spinoff.
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Oh hey, that last Hypothetical Mercs topic was archived
http://www.gmun.moe/b8/Lurker/topic.php?id=74988546

If anyone posted anything there that didn't get saved, now's your chance
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Let's come back to Crono later. I'd try and revise the build, but we need to move on.

Then I saw what the next merc was: http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/113248837/Crunchling

Let's go back to Crono

I agree, Crunchling is already a 10/10 build, no changes needed
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let's replace crunchling with Chex Warrior IMO

Chex Quest was a good-ass game
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No time frame given to turning back to normal selves for the second ability/if the mercenary is incapable of eating delicious Cap'n Crunch Cereal, part of this balanced breakfast. First ability's wording is rough due to "laziest on their team", which really sucks if someone hits another person with, say, a Bad Box Art Mega Man "don't give a shit" ability, or there's a morale drop, or Big the Cat exists somewhere. Too many variables to be considered truly "fair", which means it's probably really good in practice in a Len like way of "what is a delicious cake who is the cake delicious to", only just "how long do they have to eat what constitutes as eating". I understand what it's trying to do, making mercs like Kirby more viable when it's in effect while hurting mercs like Master Chief and Raiden who would be less apt to do goofy stuff like that, but doing that on a team-wide scale is honestly even stronger than Barkley in a lot of situations.

Also should be Cool Spot.

Forced meme.

Kill it.
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