Current Events > Waitress upset over an 8% tip. Is she in the right?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Baha05 posted...

So its damn if you do and damned if you dont.

Refusing to tip doesn't help the servers in any way, it doesn't help "end tipping culture". It just helps you be cheap. It's antisocial behavior.

Baha05 posted...

So its damn if you do and damned if you dont.

No. Because, believe it or not, it is possible to end tipping without needing to fuck over tipped employees in the interim.

In fact, it's the only way. Tipping ends through legislation and political pressure, just like every other achievement for workers' rights in history.

Background_Guy posted...

Refusing to tip doesn't help the servers in any way, it doesn't help "end tipping culture". It just helps you be cheap. It's antisocial behavior.

No it's not.

ai123 posted...

But we don't support businesses underpaying their workers in order to provide cheap goods, do we?

That's capitalism in a nutshell. Exploiting cheap labor for cheap goods. It's why sweat shops exist.

WalkingPlague posted...

and how is what i said sexist?

Because I somehow doubt you'd make the OnlyFans crack if the server was named Phil.

Background_Guy posted...

Refusing to tip doesn't help the servers in any way, it doesn't help "end tipping culture". It just helps you be cheap. It's antisocial behavior.

SAlYAN posted...

No. Because, believe it or not, it is possible to end tipping without needing to fuck over tipped employees in the interim.

In fact, it's the only way. Tipping ends through legislation and political pressure, just like every other achievement for workers' rights in history.

And yet the fact is if you dont tip enough the person gets pissed at you and if you tip too much it justifies the culture. And given you probably cant tip in the middle either you are 100% fucked in terms of either kissing someone off or continuing to feed into a culture that needs to be uprooted and thrown in a wood chipper.

Lmao with that troll message at the bottom

Erica may be pissed but she should be happy that she provided a great experience for that customer. If the customer comes back for a repeat experience shell get another tip.

My thing with people who place servers/waiters on a mile high pedestal, likely are not tipping the plenty of other essential jobs/workers making less than that waitress they put on a mile high pedestal.

As an added bonus, the drivers/servers themselves who feel entitled to tips, I have 0 doubt most of them aren't tipping their cashiers or cart attendants or even the local McDonald's workers who typically are not tipped. Because the people who oh so love tip culture don't really like to acknowledge many of them make more than those grocery/retail store workers and even commonly untipped resteraunts like Chipotle and McDs so where the expected tips for them? Because fuck them right?

Baha05 posted...

So its damn if you do and damned if you dont.

Yup. It's always your fault

LightningThief posted...

My thing with people who place servers/waiters on a mile high pedestal, likely are not tipping the plenty of other essential jobs/workers making less than that waitress they put on a mile high pedestal.

As an added bonus, the drivers/servers themselves who feel entitled to tips, I have 0 doubt most of them aren't tipping their cashiers or cart attendants or even the local McDonald's workers who typically are not tipped. Because the people who oh so love tip culture don't really like to acknowledge many of them make more than those grocery/retail store workers and even commonly untipped resteraunts like Chipotle and McDs so where the expected tips for them? Because fuck them right?

Basically hell Inwork retail and I dont expect or accept tips.

LightningThief posted...

My thing with people who place servers/waiters on a mile high pedestal, likely are not tipping the plenty of other essential jobs/workers making less than that waitress they put on a mile high pedestal.

As an added bonus, the drivers/servers themselves who feel entitled to tips, I have 0 doubt most of them aren't tipping their cashiers or cart attendants or even the local McDonald's workers who typically are not tipped. Because the people who oh so love tip culture don't really like to acknowledge many of them make more than those grocery/retail store workers and even commonly untipped resteraunts like Chipotle and McDs so where the expected tips for them? Because fuck them right?

No, not "fuck them." They deserve a living wage too.

The difference is that they, untipped, will receive roughly 3.5x the pay a server will, if untipped. Which is still not nearly enough, but a fact nonetheless.

Not tipping one results in poverty wages, which is awful. Not tipping the other results in borderline-slave labor, which is atrocious.

And while yes, the employer does technically have to make up the difference if the server makes less than minimum wage with tips, there is basically no faster way for them to be fired for "poor job performance" than reporting that. Another issue that other low payed workers don't face.

Background_Guy posted...

Refusing to tip doesn't help the servers in any way, it doesn't help "end tipping culture". It just helps you be cheap. It's antisocial behavior.

Actually tipping perpetuates the minimum wage to not increase because it subsides these terrible businesses and lets them thrive.

Legislation doesn't happen because they thrive and use their profit to lobby it not happening.
Did you know there is a big lobbyist group paid by these very restaurants to NOT make it better for their workers?

SAlYAN posted...

No, not "fuck them." They deserve a living wage too.

The difference is that they, untipped, will receive roughly 3.5x the pay a server will, if untipped. Which is still not nearly enough, but a fact nonetheless.

The attitude is "fuck them" given the blatant gloss over and hypocrisy a lot of them have. Especially the excuses that tries to gloss over why they should be placed on a mile high pedestal while perpetuating myths.

Employers in resteraunts are literally required by law to make up the difference if their staff is untipped. If an employer is not making up that difference, then they are breaking the law.

This myth perpetuated because:
1) It helps to put the waitress on a mile high pedestal.
2) The employer loves it because it saves them money on payroll
3) it continues to gloss over the fact that these tipped workers likely take home make more pay than those grocery/retail workers and even many chain resteraunts like McDs, Burger King and Chipotle. Yet, likely aren't tipping those typically untipped workers who take home less pay.

The waitress and servers are placed on a mile high pedestal often glossing over them making more than essential workers retail and even other non tipped chain establishments. Most of them are not tipping people like retail staff making less than them, yet demand to be tipped themselves.

Tipped workers and their employers absolutely love tipping culture. It's also not some huge shocker why tipped workers fight tooth and nail to keep tipping culture in place.

Obligatory tips aren't tips.

If you aren't satisfied with what your job is paying you, take it up with them or work elsewhere. I'm not your employer.

FYI your tipping MAKES IT WORSE for workers

The National Restaurant Association opposes the Raise the Wage Act of 2021 because it would raise the federal minimum wage from the current $7.25 to $15 per hour over five years and eliminate the tip credit for tipped employees.

https://restaurant.org/getmedia/c0a0283e-4d32-4b5d-a01f-1ea4051d5885/raise-the-wage-act.pdf

How does this lobbyist group get funded? By you subsidizing their restaurants and them profiting off of them NOT having to pay a fair wage to begin with.

So what they do with the money YOUR TIPS saved them?

They lobby AGAINST any legislation to fix the system

HOLY MOLY

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/23/the-era-of-the-subminimum-wage-for-tipped-restaurant-workers-is-ending.html

Opponents, led by the Illinois Restaurant Association, argued that the proposal will cut restaurant profits in half and cut the effective income of tipped workers it says now earn a median of $28.48 an hour in Chicago and who, in other states and cities, usually make well more than the minimum wage.

Isn't it wild that a lobbyist funded association group doesn't want tips to go away?

Think about that for a moment. Why would a lobbyist group LOVE tips?

Early next month, Chicagos City Council will move to make Americas third-largest city the latest jurisdiction to abolish the subminimum wage for tipped employees, requiring restaurants to meet the regular $15.80 minimum for bartenders, servers and more, up from $9.48 plus tips now. After a months-long public campaign that began shortly after Mayor Brandon Johnson took office in May, advocates reached a deal with industry lobbyists to phase out the tipped-minimum wage over five years.

tips = wage suppression and loss of your own ability to protect yourself from these lobbyist groups

again, a law to require the restaurants to pay their employers is OPPOSED by their lobbyist group BECAUSE
it would

CUT PROFITS
IN HALF

so they want tips, and it helps them stay powerful

WingsOfGood posted...

FYI your tipping MAKES IT WORSE for workers

https://restaurant.org/getmedia/c0a0283e-4d32-4b5d-a01f-1ea4051d5885/raise-the-wage-act.pdf

How does this lobbyist group get funded? By you subsidizing their restaurants and them profiting off of them NOT having to pay a fair wage to begin with.

So what they do with the money YOUR TIPS saved them?

They lobby AGAINST any legislation to fix the system

HOLY MOLY

My dude...

That is an argument in favor of boycotting the restaurants altogether. Because the restaurateurs made their money off the food.

Not an argument in favor of continuing to eat there, and just not tipping. That funds the lobby just the same.

LightningThief posted...

Employers in resteraunts are literally required by law to make up the difference if their staff is untipped.

After which said staff member is immediately fired, citing "poor performance," because if their performance was "good," the employer wouldn't have to pony up the dough.

That's not the killer argument you think it is. Starbucks batistas have it fucking rough, but they don't risk getting fired just for demanding the federal minimum wage from their employer.

SAlYAN posted...

No. Because, believe it or not, it is possible to end tipping without needing to fuck over tipped employees in the interim.

In fact, it's the only way. Tipping ends through legislation and political pressure, just like every other achievement for workers' rights in history.

Political pressure from being angry about losing money because people are sick of tipping and now no servers.

SAlYAN posted...

After which said staff member is immediately fired, citing "poor performance," because if their performance was "good," the employer wouldn't have to pony up the dough.

That's not the killer argument you think it is. Starbucks batistas have it fucking rough, but they don't risk getting fired just for demanding the federal minimum wage from their employer.

Getting fired for shitty reasons under the disguise of performance is not some unique problem to waitresses, you just put them on a mile high pedestal.

You are still also glossing over everything else I said, for obvious reasons. Like expecting tips but don't give them to those who make less under a perpetuated and very useful myth the server/waiter/etc made less than the bag boy at Target.

SAlYAN posted...

My dude...

That is an argument in favor of boycotting the restaurants altogether. Because the restaurateurs made their money off the food.

Not an argument in favor of continuing to eat there, and just not tipping. That funds the lobby just the same.

False.
Here is the thing. There are restaurants that pay more than minimum wage.
Yet some servers would rather still work at a worse place to take the "chance" the "risk" to get some rich dude throwing around tips.
So you have by virtue of ignorant tipping created a natural selection process that weeds out those who ethically employ verses the exploiters and then you go on a forum like gamefaqs and argue tooth and nail about the virtues of such.
It is shameful.

spriga posted...

Political pressure from being angry about losing money because people are sick of tipping and now no servers.

essentially if everyone stopped tipping employers overnight would have to raise their wages or close down

tipping is indeed a problem that keeps the bigger problem afloat

bfslick50 posted...

Im not tipping to put you through college.

Maybe she needs to campaign for lower college fees, and the professor can make up the difference with tips?

Oh wait.

LightningThief posted...

Getting fired for shitty reasons under the disguise of performance is not some unique problem to waitresses, you just put them on a mile high pedestal.

You are still also glossing over everything else I said, for obvious reasons. Like expecting tips but don't give them to those who make less under a perpetuated and very useful myth the server/waiter/etc made less than the bag boy at Target.

Dude, drop this "pedestal" crap. This isn't an Olympic sport where we need to decide who has it worse.

One party works for unchangeable crap wages, and employers often forbid tips. They need a higher minimum wage and better treatment.

One party has an even lower wage, but if they sing, dance, and cluck like a chicken well enough to please the fickle clientele, they might make more, even than group A. They ALSO need a higher minimum wage and better working conditions.

Literally nobody who supports better pay for wait staff, or the end of tipping culture, OR tipping your waiter until said culture actually ends, is also turning around and saying "fuck minimum wagie plebs; let them SUFFER!"

Literally the only point of contention is whether it's ethically OK to let millions of people starve on $2.13/hr wages, for years, while we "protest" by continuing to expect them to sing and dance and bring us our cheeseburgers, all while still funneling money to the parties creating the situation in the first place.

If you work retail and honestly think waiting tables is such a great fuckin deal, feel free to quit your job and go pursue it.

SAlYAN posted...

Dude, drop this "pedestal" crap. This isn't an Olympic sport where we need to decide who has it worse.

You can claim its not an Olympic sport where we decide who has it worse. Your argument is literally all about how much tipped workers have it worse and why great importance should absolutely be placed on every person tipping their waiter, while you completely ignore essential workers who typically are not tipped making less. Hence, the mile high pedestal you place tipped workers on.

You say nobody is saying "fuck the typically non tipped workers (retail, grocery stores, janitorial, chain restaurants)", but your entire argument is all about glossing over a lot of things that says fuck them, tipped workers matter more.

The rest of your post is perpetuating the myth again while also glossing over most of those same people demanding tips are not tipping those who take home less than they do. Again, the mile high pedestal you place waitresses and servers on. Because it's inconvenient to talk about the waiter or server taking home more pay than the cashier at Walgreens or the cart boy at Walmart. It's easier to gloss over the server or waitresses not ever tipping the Chic Fil A worker who didn't get tips and made less.

SAlYAN posted...

OK to let millions of people starve on $2.13/hr wages

where is the minimum wage $2.13 ???

LightningThief posted...

glossing over most of those same people demanding tips are not tipping those who take home less than they do.

good point

LightningThief posted...

it's inconvenient to talk about the waiter or server taking home more pay than the cashier at Walgreens or the cart boy at Walmart. It's easier to gloss over the server or waitresses not ever tipping the Chic Fil A worker who didn't get tips and made less.

exactly

it is because tipping is a vapid way to signal "I care" without actually caring

you don't have to think about these uncomfortable truths cause you "helped out one person" and get to come on a place like CE and act like that makes you a paragon of righteousness for the low wage earner (just see the replies about people being stingy)

except in your ignorance you reinforced the system and depressed wages

WingsOfGood posted...

where is the minimum wage $2.13 ???

Everywhere a waiter doesn't want to be immediately fired for reporting making less than $7.25/hr.

Because let me tell ya, that $7.25/hr isn't gonna go very far when they're immediately thrown back out on the job market begging for interviews again.

SAlYAN posted...

Everywhere a waiter doesn't want to be immediately fired for reporting making less than $7.25/hr.

Because let me tell ya, that $7.25/hr isn't gonna go very far when they're immediately thrown back out on the job market begging for interviews again.

So the answer is nowhere. Got it.

SAlYAN posted...

Everywhere a waiter doesn't want to be immediately fired for reporting making less than $7.25/hr.

Because let me tell ya, that $7.25/hr isn't gonna go very far when they're immediately thrown back out on the job market begging for interviews again.

what a wonderful system

I better subsidize it and keep it profitable

WingsOfGood posted...

what a wonderful system

I better subsidize it

Well that's exactly what you're doing by going out to eat anyway. So have at it, I guess.

LightningThief posted...

They aren't being cheap not participating in something that is literally not required by law to participate just because you feel they are entitled to a tip.

lmao if you think people aren't tipping in some form of civil disobedience. Most of them are just jerks and they would probably walk out without paying entirely if they didn't fear criminal charges.

Those businesses aren't entitled to your money and yet everyone will pay them no matter how much they artificially inflate their costs? But ask for a tip and suddenly everyone is frugal and gonna change society by taking a stand and opting out.

Not tipping will never eliminate tipping. It punishes workers exclusively and does nothing to the employers. We can at least own it and say we're doing it to save our money instead of making up nonsense about how moral it is and how it will change the world.

Not tipping is no different than any other bitching and moaning customers do. They're annoying, inconveniencing, hurting workers and doing jack shit to anyone who actually can or needs to change things. And then they leave and completely forget the issue until the next time they're in a store or restaurant. Maybe they actually feel it's hopeless so they've decided to just take their anger out on workers, who can't fight back and whom the company will throw under the bus if the customer takes the complaint up the chain.

WingsOfGood posted...

what a wonderful system

I better subsidize it and keep it profitable

How are you hurting the profits of Chili's by not tipping? They're massively overcharging you for cheap food and will just fire servers who make bad tips. You may actually be helping them by not tipping because they'll keep fishing for servers who they don't need to pay.

Deutschenlied posted...

Most of them are just jerks

exhibit A

it is about a high horse

they want on it, they don't care about workers and wage depression

Not tipping will never eliminate tipping. It punishes workers exclusively and does nothing to the employers. We can at least own it and say we're doing it to save our money instead of making up nonsense about how moral it is and how it will change the world.

Might want to turn off USA brain there

LightningThief posted...

No it's not.

Denial ain't a river in Egypt.

SAlYAN posted...

No, not "fuck them." They deserve a living wage too.

The difference is that they, untipped, will receive roughly 3.5x the pay a server will, if untipped. Which is still not nearly enough, but a fact nonetheless.

Servers are guaranteed the full minimum wage just like everyone else, full stop.

Deutschenlied posted...

....

See my last post. 324

As for your argument about eliminating tipping, see post 297. Not everyone not tipping is on some missions to fix the system. Many see it no different than than not tipping the Cart Boy at your grocery who I know it's tough for many of you to acknowledge, likely takes home less pay than your prized waitress.

If you want to fix low wages, great we are in a agreement. But the argument that tries to place waitresses/servers/etc on a pedestal while glossing over blatant hypocrisy and inconvenient logic is where you lose me. At the very least just be honest and say you think the server deserves more love and attention than the stocker or cart attendant or janitorial worker at your local retail store who likely takes home less than the server at a resteraunt. Spare me the moral high horse, righteousness angle when people start ignoring many of those waitresses take home more than grocery store workers/janitor/etc, and don't tip those typically non tipped essential jobs.... oh but "how dare you not tip me the waiter."

https://www.businessinsider.com/countries-where-you-dont-need-to-leave-a-tip-2016-3

Most service staff in countries around the world don't expect to be tipped for their service because they are well-paid compared to those in the US.

For example, the average wage for a waiter in Australia is $15 per hour along with benefits, according to PayScale. In the US, a wage of only at least $2.13 per hour, and at least $30 per month in tips, is required, so service staff are essentially relying on these tips to make a living.

tipping arguments of "it just can't work! not tipping solves nothing!" blah blah blah is akin to how gun control just can never work

look at the rest of the world and you will find yourself ashamed unless you aren't they type to learn and grow using gained knowledge

For the people who say eliminate tipping. What do you think of the UK where serving staff are paid full wage I.e. arent expected to top it up with tips?

I still tip for good service. Once we had crap meal but good service. I told the waitress for every pound she got removed off the bill from her manager wed give it to her as a tip.

Paragon21XX posted...

Denial ain't a river in Egypt.

Servers are guaranteed the full minimum wage just like everyone else, full stop.

And they are immediately fired for it if they need it.

Like, what part of that isn't sinking in? Getting that minimum wage from a restaurant owner is as good as signing your own pink slip.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/opinion/editorials/2016/10/03/many-nations-have-ended-tipping-culture/15726597007/

Many nations have ended tipping culture

The notion of tipping people for their performance in serving others is an archaic practice and its time this country puts an end to it.

This tradition was actually born in the 19th century when Americans abroad brought back to home soil the European idea of tipping employees to reward them for doing good jobs.

Ironically, teh tipping custom has declined in much of Europe unlike America.

While Americans were at first outraged at the idea, the restaurant industry realized it could be a possible boon for their businesses.

Since then, the custom of tipping has become ingrained in American society. It is especially entrenched within the restaurant industry, which employs more than 60 percent of all tipped workers.

But employees shouldnt be the only people outraged by the system.

Allowing restaurants and other establishments to pay tipped employees a sub-minimum wage also should be offensive to patrons, who are essentially paying a portion of the overhead costs normally associated with doing business namely employee wages.

Reasons to abolish tipping

If youre been a supporter of the system in the past, let us provide you with some reasons to change your opinion.

n Tipping relies on stereotypes.

Studies show across the board that white people tend to receive better tips than people of color regardless of both the level of service they provided and the race of the customers.

In addition, waitresses with larger breasts, smaller body sizes and blonde hair also receive better tips than women without those attributes for the same quality of service.

n Tipping leads to sexual harassment.

A recent 700-person survey showed that nine of every 10 waitresses have been victims of sexual harassment on the job. One-third of all waitresses and 20 percent of waiters said they had been inappropriately touched on the job.

The restaurant industry is also the source of nearly 4 in 10 sexual harassment complaints to the Equal Opportunity Commission, although only 7 percent of working women are employed there.

The problem is that servers are paid sub-minimum wages significantly lower than the federal minimum wage and are expected to make up the difference in tips. This heavy dependence on tips makes waitresses and waiters put up with high levels of sexual harassment from both customers and employers.

Tipping drives people into poverty.

Institutions, like restaurants, that employ tip-able employees can pay them much less than the minimum wage. The federal rate is just $2.13 an hour, which hasnt increased in 25 years despite numerous attempts to increase it.

Although Floridas minimum hourly rate for tipped employees is higher than many other states at $5.03, servers here still rely heavily on tips to make a living wage.

While servers in the high-end restaurants can generally make a living wage when tips are added to their hourly rate, those toiling in diners or less-expensive restaurants are often hard-pressed to rise above poverty.

In fact, according to a 2014 report from the National Economic Council, servers are three times as likely as other workers to live in poverty. Many, in fact, are heavily reliant on public subsidies to even make it.

n Tipping is incredibly arbitrary.

Although we like to believe that tips are merit-related, nothing could be further from the truth.

Studies show, for example, that people paying with credit cards leave larger tips than people paying with cash.

Theyve also shown that servers who touch a customer on the arm or draw a smiley face on checks receive larger tips. So do female waitresses who wear red or squat next to a table instead of standing up straight.

According to one study, a customers assessment of a servers work only accounts for somewhere between 1 and 5 percent of the variation in tips.

The complexity of tipping was illustrated in a story in Mondays Life section that offered 10 examples of services that involve tips.

Wouldnt it be more simple and fair that price of a service be fair and avoid tipping altogether?

In Australia, for instance, here is the advice from a travelers website: In Australia you dont have to tip ever. But you can if you want to.

Regarding Australian restaurants, Its something you willingly give for good service, rather than something you feel you have to give for standard service.

n Tipping has long-term effects for employees.

There are millions of American workers who are tipped employees. Many of these people enter such positions very young, as their first job out of high school or college.

When people are economically forced to accept a sexually harassing, demeaning, stereotypic, arbitrary culture, especially when they are young and impressionable, they may come to believe that these things are just part of holding down a job.

Sadly then, this early experience is setting a very low bar for whats acceptable in the workplace and young tipped employees may have fewer skills in place to succeed.

So how do you change a longstanding tradition without hurting the economy?

It already has been changed in some cases where tips are automatically added or in bills of large parties at restaurants.

We would rather the government get involved. A cultural change requires greater awareness of the advantages of gettign rid of the tippingculture.

Tips are dumb. But not all waiters and waitresses want to get rid of them. I remember hearing some say theyd rather keep tips instead of a normal wage since some nights were really good for them. But the same ones will complain on a bad night, so Eh Id rather then have a livable wage. And only tip when theyre a good waiter instead of tips being all by actually mandatory

LinkPizza posted...

I remember hearing some say theyd rather keep tips instead of a normal wage since some nights were really good for them. But the same ones will complain on a bad night,

not surprised

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/696421086

GARCIA: Now, this does not seem rational because customers will pay the exact same overall amount in those two restaurants. But Michael says that's just how customers often decide which restaurants they like better. In one of his recent papers, Michael looked at Joe's Crab Shack, a chain restaurant. Twelve of the restaurants in the Joe's Crab Shack chain got rid of tipping for a while and raised their menu prices to make up for it so they could still pay their servers just as much. And then most of those restaurants eventually had to go back to tipping.

LYNN: I was able to download Yelp and other online ratings of Joe's Crab Shacks by location. And what we observed is that when they eliminated tipping, their online ratings went down. And when they got - brought tipping back, their online ratings went up.

VANEK SMITH: Michael says these findings are consistent with other research. And so you can see why restaurants find it so hard to end tipping and to raise their menu prices. They don't want to lose business to other restaurants that continue to allow tipping.

GARCIA: Yeah. And Michael says he did find one exception to this rule. But that exception is just high-end restaurants - restaurants that are already expensive and where the customers just aren't as sensitive to those higher menu prices. They were planning to spend a lot of money at these restaurants anyways, so they may not even notice that their $50 steak is now $60 or whatever.

VANEK SMITH: But we also wanted to ask Michael about tipping as a social convention because that, of course, is part of tipping, too. And, you know, is this convention as horrible as Anu, our listener, thinks it is? So let's start with this. Tipping seems to be designed to reward good service. So the better the service, you know, the higher the tip. But is that what happens in real life?
GARCIA: Michael says, no, not...

VANEK SMITH: No.

GARCIA: ...Really. Only a tiny amount of the tip is actually related to the quality of the service. In fact, the amount is so small, Michael says, that in one survey, only about half of waiters and waitresses themselves thought their tips were related to their service.

VANEK SMITH: Most of the average tip, Michael says, is just determined by the social expectation that people feel to behave in a certain way. Everyone else leaves, you know, a 15 to 20 percent tip, so you leave a 15 to 20 percent tip. That is just the way we do things.

GARCIA: Plus, you don't want to, like, feel guilty...

VANEK SMITH: No, I know.
GARCIA: ...If you know that a server's going to be - that a server's income is based on the tip. You don't want to be the jerk who just doesn't leave the right tip.

VANEK SMITH: I know. But, you know, as Anu hints in her question, there are other things that are really troubling about the way tipping works in the real world.

LYNN: I found that waitresses who rated themselves as more attractive got better tips. Blonde waitresses got better tips than brunettes. Slender waitresses got better tips. And waitresses with larger breasts got larger tips.

VANEK SMITH: Oh, America.

GARCIA: Yeah, that's depressing.

GARCIA: And we can now turn to Anu's final question, which is, if restaurants don't have an incentive to end tipping themselves, what could possibly end it? One possibility, Michael says, is through the courts. And here, it's kind of complicated. But he says that tipping seems like a neutral practice. But if it does have the effect, for example, of paying black servers less than white servers, then maybe it could be declared unlawful by courts because of its discriminatory nature.
VANEK SMITH: Michael says he's spoken to a lot of labor and employment lawyers about this possibility. For now, he says, it seems like a longshot, both because it's not clear whether that argument would work in court and also because, he says, there just need to be more studies on this racial gap issue to confirm that it does exist, also, to determine how big it is and what might be causing it.
GARCIA: Yeah. And the other possible way to end tipping that some people have proposed is just for the law to stop allowing restaurants and other businesses to legally pay their tipped workers less than the minimum wage. And, in fact, some states have done that.

WingsOfGood posted...

tipping arguments of "it just can't work! not tipping solves nothing!" blah blah blah is akin to how gun control just can never work

look at the rest of the world and you will find yourself ashamed unless you aren't they type to learn and grow using gained knowledge

Uh I said not tipping isn't what will eliminate tipping. We should eliminate tipping, but that won't happen without legal and economical changes. Businesses need to be legally compelled to change. We can't just wish really hard that the entire country stops tipping at once and then hope it somehow forces businesses to feel bad and start paying all their employees (tipped or hourly) a lot more money.

SAlYAN posted...

And I wouldn't pretend otherwise.

I would say scenario 2 actually hurts the people responsible. The business owners. The ones who need to be hurt. And is thus a far more effective protest than scenario 1, which basically gives the boss their money, while fucking over the little guy exclusively.

Thats a good point.

however, if the argument is that we cant fuck over waiters in the interim then that cant really be done. Both methods hurt waiters.

there is the third option of outright banning the practice of tipping. Thats not going to happen

Rika_Furude posted...

Thats a good point.

however, if the argument is that we cant fuck over waiters in the interim then that cant really be done. Both methods hurt waiters.

there is the third option of outright banning the practice of tipping. Thats not going to happen

You see, I agree with you.

The ideal fix would be to legislatively fix the problem while continuing to tip in the interrim to disrupt as few servers lives as possible. This is ideal, but admittedly unlikely to the point of impossibility.

The second fix would be to full in stop patronizing establishments thar employ for tips. This will cost a lot of people their jobs, and generally suck for a lot of people until change happens, but change is at least likely because business owners will have their hands forced, because their bottom line is hurt.

The worst option is to just go out to eat and just not tipping. That will also result in a lot of people losing their livelihoods but accomplishes nothing because the business owner loses very little, while the server loses their livelihood and maybe their job (because, for the fifth time, it doesnt MATTER that wait staff are technically entitled to the federal minimum wage, if they are immediately fired for claiming it). And no amount of smug "just get another job" preening changes the fact that that is putting massive hardship on a class of people statistically among the least capable of dealing with it. All with a minimal promise of success because, again, the owners aren't hurt at all.

So, if the only two viable paths forward both require servers to shoulder undue hardship, I would advocate for the one that will actually hurt the businesses too, and put us on a faster track to success.

Unfortunately, that option is also unlikely, because a lot of people can't stand the idea of giving up their overpriced chicken tendies in the interrim.

And, of course, there's the big elephant in the room, which is that all of these paths forward require a united front, with a shitload of people all taking the same path, simultaneously, to send a clear message. And yhe realitybis that that is something we do not have, and are unlikely to have for the forseeable future. Until the time that changes, single, individual people just refusing to tip on their own are just being cheap-asses who don't care they're hurting an individual, not a company, and just want their hamburger, and make it snappy. And don't forget the pickles, little shits. And keep my drink filled. Sucks, but that's reality. Until there is an actual movement, a push with numbers and momentum, all we've got is small people hurting other small people, and pretending there's something moral or righteous to it.

SAlYAN posted...

No, not "fuck them." They deserve a living wage too.

The difference is that they, untipped, will receive roughly 3.5x the pay a server will, if untipped. Which is still not nearly enough, but a fact nonetheless.

Not tipping one results in poverty wages, which is awful. Not tipping the other results in borderline-slave labor, which is atrocious.

And while yes, the employer does technically have to make up the difference if the server makes less than minimum wage with tips, there is basically no faster way for them to be fired for "poor job performance" than reporting that. Another issue that other low payed workers don't face.

But your logic says otherwise.

Not that much less. Example, you work at Applebee's? You can make like $12 an hour depending on where you are. As a waiter, you'd expect like $6. A dishwasher would expect something like $10, and generally never get paid more than what a higher end server can. And that is before you even throw in tips. A waiter that waits on 4 tables and people leave around an hour a piece and buy things totaling around $100 on average would take in like $60+ ish an hour including their tips. Even if people paid 5% tips that would still be way more than literally everyone else there.

Not tipping would be an issue, but the topic at hand shows the person tipped they didn't tip "enough" for them. Tipping is dumb in general, but what especially makes this heinous are people screaming that they better fork over more cash, NOT the business.

Oh yes they do. Try making bad food as a line cook, try getting behind on the dishes, try "seating people too slowly" as a hostess. Everyone has to bust their ass for it, and in a lot of places the other places barely pay you anything.

Why people are acting like waiter and waitresses deserve so much more is a mystery to me. When I worked there, the money was not spread to everyone, and I genuinely only hear about those at mom and pop's places or Asian restaurants.

Rika_Furude posted...

Thats a good point.

however, if the argument is that we cant fuck over waiters in the interim then that cant really be done. Both methods hurt waiters.

there is the third option of outright banning the practice of tipping. Thats not going to happen

The response is just don't eat out and let the businesses die for it.

It isn't my job to pay other people's tuition. I understand the struggle, but it isn't like I'm not struggling either. I just tip as good as I can and don't care about the fallout.

That's my stance on that stuff.

pazzy posted...

The response is just don't eat out and let the businesses die for it.

So we aren't eating out to pay waiters, but we are eating out to save businesses? Bad businesses should die. They can be replaced by good ones.

Nemu posted...

It's amazing the lengths that people go to try to justify being cheapskates.

*To have control over their own money that they worked for.