Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 405: Pride Month Comes Before the Fall

(+) Yeah! (+)

MoogleKupo141 posted...

what is he doing

Sleeping in a pile of money and getting attention?

red13n posted...

Sleeping in a pile of money and getting attention?

Getting attention - sure, as narcissists prefer negative publicity over being out of the news cycle for five minutes. The money pile is getting smaller though. Not to the point where it'll impact his day-to-day life, but his ego is definitely bruised, which for billionaires might as well be same as dying

a lot of elon's money is illiquid afaik so if his grift ever falls through and stocks stop being wildly overvalued due to his proximity to them things could get very funny very quickly

Just checked if x.com redirects to Twitter. Sure enough it does. What a weird, dumb move. So like, are tweets called exes now

Aaaaaaallllllllllll my exes
tweeting exes

haha....ohhhhhhhh so apparently x wants to host videos...

I don't think I can say any more here....but if you know, you know....

Fires most of staff. Plans huge expansion of platform.

Just rich idiot things.

ivysnow posted...

a lot of elon's money is illiquid afaik so if his grift ever falls through and stocks stop being wildly overvalued due to his proximity to them things could get very funny very quickly

He could lose 90% of his value and still be worth more than god, unfortunately.

Seanchan posted...

haha....ohhhhhhhh so apparently x wants to host videos...

I don't think I can say any more here....but if you know, you know....

Honestly, since he can't even trademark his new "logo" ripped straight from unicode... videos of the x variety have a great opportunity to make themselves look official

Killing (one of) the most iconic brand/logo of the new millennium solely on ego has got to be the most musk thing ever

Guy who wants to take humans to Mars cant even run a social media site.

PeaceFrog posted...

Honestly, since he can't even trademark his new "logo" ripped straight from unicode... videos of the x variety have a great opportunity to make themselves look official

https://about.meta.com/brand/resources/facebookapp/logo/

I am surprised nobody posted this gif yet

https://misantropey.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/foodfight6.gif

Labour Party officially throws trans people to the wolves.

https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1683385468560326657

This X thing is so stupid. People are not going to use the non-Twitter features, and other companies have already had them available for years.

Grimlyn posted...

Labour Party officially throws trans people to the wolves.

https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1683385468560326657

Any trans men who can safely try to enter these spaces, please try to do so and see how it goes

Some days I can't help but wonder: How would things have changed if we just executed every last Confederate after the Civil War?

Cause if we're going to have states like Florida trying to teach the ""benefits"" of slavery, perhaps we just shouldn't have spared anyone fighting for slavery in the first place.

Then again it would have been better were it never tolerated. Too bad the founding fathers were slave owners.

Some good(ish) news internationally - Spain held elections yesterday and despite all the analyst predictions that the right would be able to easily take over, they failed - and the far-right in particular crashed and burned.

Basically you need 176 seats there to form a government. The center-right party did get the most at 136, but the far-right Vox party only got 33 leaving a coalition of the two short at 169. The ruling Socialist party got 122 seats with their likely main coalition partner at 31. The remaining seats are spread among smaller parties and despite the right coalition only being 7 seats short it seems they'll have an uphill climb because they've been hostile to basically all the smaller regional parties in the past LOL. Reading various news reports and it's expected the left coalition might have a better chance of forming a majority - though it still may prove difficult.

But Vox in particular dropped from winning 52 seats back in 2019 down to their current 33 so instead of being able to exert leverage to play kingmaker like many predicted beforehand they arguably cost the right.

If neither the right or the left can come up with a coalition government there will be another round of elections, probably in a few months.

Jakyl25 posted...

Any trans men who can safely try to enter these spaces, please try to do so and see how it goes

I've been saying for a while that mass sit-ins by trans men are the only thing that's going to put an end to these issues. Unfortunately it's kinda a bum deal for the potential protesters because the architects of these laws/policies are not specifically trying to target trans women, they're also trying to make public life hostile to other trans people, to LGBT people in general, and even to completely cishet people who are, like, gender non-conforming or black or intersex or any number of other things that are seen as incompatible with traditional gender roles. So the initial response to protest from trans men will almost certainly be violence and arrests, not "gosh, I guess we made a mistake with these laws".

The trans man thing is not a gotcha. The operating principle here is in no way founded on some kind of actual fair logic where the presence of a trans man in the womens' restroom makes everyone see the error in their ways. The principle here is that people hate freaks like us and want to keep us out of society altogether. Everyone who doesn't conform to some precise notion of cisnormative gender, be they trans or cis, is fair game for harassment out of whatever space they aren't seen as fit for, and that can potentially be BOTH gendered restrooms. This can't be 'gotchaed' out of.

On the Labour thing - its wrong to highlight the single sex spaces thing as the Equality Act already provides for exemptions and Labour is simply saying they wont remove those which there is zero call for anyway. By contrast the Tories have been threatening to ban trans people outright. Similarly they are committing to making gender recognition simpler so its a bit of a dishonest framing. What Labour is offering is a significant improvement in trans rights over the current system At the same time Im not really sure what they expected - there is no use equivocating as it will never be enough for transphobes and any climb down only risks upsetting your own base.

Heres the full article, of course it spends most of it excoriating the Tories for being transphobic:

https://tinyurl.com/4mknv7uy

Paratroopa1 posted...

This can't be 'gotchaed' out of.

Exactly. It's fun to poke holes in their stated logical arguments, but that logic is all a farce to begin with. It just boils down to "this makes me feel icky" vs "that makes me feel warm and fuzzy"

https://twitter.com/RMac18/status/1683541303680987136

if only we as a society could use this moment to finally kill the myth that just because someone is rich it doesn't mean they're smart or competent

if i was elon musk i would simply not name a conference room "eXposure"

LightningStrikes posted...

On the Labour thing - its wrong to highlight the single sex spaces thing as the Equality Act already provides for exemptions and Labour is simply saying they wont remove those which there is zero call for anyway. By contrast the Tories have been threatening to ban trans people outright. Similarly they are committing to making gender recognition simpler so its a bit of a dishonest framing. What Labour is offering is a significant improvement in trans rights over the current system At the same time Im not really sure what they expected - there is no use equivocating as it will never be enough for transphobes and any climb down only risks upsetting your own base.

Heres the full article, of course it spends most of it excoriating the Tories for being transphobic:

https://tinyurl.com/4mknv7uy

So what I'm hearing is "oh it's all very well and good for you to be transgender but no it would never be appropriate for you to use the locker room" which is not filling me with a lot of confidence

LightningStrikes posted...

Heres the full article, of course it spends most of it excoriating the Tories for being transphobic:

https://tinyurl.com/4mknv7uy

Wow, I'm actually kinda surprised that the context here makes it like 10x worse. For me it's the complete misunderstanding of gender dysphoria, but the weirdly hostile snipes at Scotland are fun too.

Paratroopa1 posted...

So what I'm hearing is "oh it's all very well and good for you to be transgender but no it would never be appropriate for you to use the locker room" which is not filling me with a lot of confidence

No? Trans people can currently use changing rooms and so on as befits their gender and it is unlawful to exclude them unless you can prove a specific reason eg if the hypothetical fake trans people trying to get in to womens spaces actually existed. In other words current law already provides for exactly what TERFs (dont really like the term because it implies they are feminist) claim to be so worried about. Likewise Im not a lawyer but I think that would extend to cis people also. Nobody is especially worried about that part, the worry is that the Tories want to change the Equalities Act to exclude trans people entirely, and also to make it so they would lose discrimination protections based on their gender meaning for instance a trans woman who is paid less for being a woman would be unable to claim discrimination. Yet people will tell you the parties are the same!

Im pretty cross with the whole situation because on the one hand there has been a lot of misrepresentation of Labours stance, but also Labour arent helping by watering down their previous pledge on making gender recognition certificates based on self-id (the proposal is still much better than the current system though). Of course the transphobes arent going to be happy either. By trying to offend as few people as possible they have managed to offend everyone.

Also the Scotland thing is especially stupid because Scottish Labour voted for that law, and at a higher proportion than the SNP (who have an even worse transphobe problem than Labour) did so its really hypocritical. Thats party politics for you.

LightningStrikes posted...

No? Trans people can currently use changing rooms and so on as befits their gender and it is unlawful to exclude them unless you can prove a specific reason eg if the hypothetical fake trans people trying to get in to womens spaces actually existed. In other words current law already provides for exactly what TERFs (dont really like the term because it implies they are feminist) claim to be so worried about. Likewise Im not a lawyer but I think that would extend to cis people also. Nobody is especially worried about that part, the worry is that the Tories want to change the Equalities Act to exclude trans people entirely, and also to make it so they would lose discrimination protections based on their gender meaning for instance a trans woman who is paid less for being a woman would be unable to claim discrimination. Yet people will tell you the parties are the same!

Im pretty cross with the whole situation because on the one hand there has been a lot of misrepresentation of Labours stance, but also Labour arent helping by watering down their previous pledge on making gender recognition certificates based on self-id (the proposal is still much better than the current system though). Of course the transphobes arent going to be happy either. By trying to offend as few people as possible they have managed to offend everyone.

Then I don't understand what the bit about "biological womens' spaces" meant

Nobody does because none of these transphobes can even agree what a biological woman is other than not trans.

Spaces that deny trans women are absolutely not illegal, Rowling herself is has funded a trans-exclusive women's shelter.

LightningStrikes posted...

No? Trans people can currently use changing rooms and so on as befits their gender and it is unlawful to exclude them unless you can prove a specific reason eg if the hypothetical fake trans people trying to get in to womens spaces actually existed. In other words current law already provides for exactly what TERFs (dont really like the term because it implies they are feminist) claim to be so worried about. Likewise Im not a lawyer but I think that would extend to cis people also. Nobody is especially worried about that part, the worry is that the Tories want to change the Equalities Act to exclude trans people entirely, and also to make it so they would lose discrimination protections based on their gender meaning for instance a trans woman who is paid less for being a woman would be unable to claim discrimination. Yet people will tell you the parties are the same!

Im pretty cross with the whole situation because on the one hand there has been a lot of misrepresentation of Labours stance, but also Labour arent helping by watering down their previous pledge on making gender recognition certificates based on self-id (the proposal is still much better than the current system though). Of course the transphobes arent going to be happy either. By trying to offend as few people as possible they have managed to offend everyone.

The Radical Feminist part of TERF refers to a specific type of second-wave feminism to which they accurately represent.

Grimlyn posted...

Spaces that deny trans women are absolutely not illegal, Rowling herself is has funded a trans-exclusive women's shelter.

Not what I said, current law allows for it in specific circumstances. Whether or not Rowlings is legal is yet to be seen but will probably go through the courts.

LightningStrikes posted...

Nobody does because none of these transphobes can even agree what a biological woman is other than not trans.

Right........... so what is Labour trying to say about 'biological womens' spaces being protected', and why was I not supposed to read it the way I did? What am I missing?

The exemptions that already exist but transphobes pretend dont?

I feel like we might be talking past each other. The paragraph I have questions about is this:

"We need to recognise that sex and gender are different as the Equality Act does. We will make sure that nothing in our modernised gender recognition process would override the single-sex exemptions in the Equality Act. Put simply, this means that there will always be places where it is reasonable for biological women only to have access. Labour will defend those spaces, providing legal clarity for the providers of single-sex services."

What sort of spaces do they mean are appropriate for "biological women only"?

I dont know and almost certainly nor do they because its an entirely astroturfed issue claiming to be about an issue which current legislation already covers. As you well know none of this trans panic is based around real arguments.

Oh and if youre thinking but none of that makes any sense, yes. In microcosm this is why the UK is doomed. Nobody is interested in actually governing they just want to provide detail-free soundbites as policy for fear of the right-wing press and a very specific set of voters in a very small part of the country. There is no constitution and laws are often vaguely written (as well as in many cases depending on common law or being hundreds of years old), so wild things can happen that nobody is actually sure if its legal or not until it ends up in front of a judge. The whole system is entirely broken and not sustainable in the modern world, like the US but with fewer guns.

Pretending they aren't signalling towards exactly what everybody reading those words understands them to mean is just sticking your head in the sand screaming everything's fine.

Labour is absolutely riddled with outspoken transphobic bigots like Rosie Duffield who is completely drowning in nothing but flagrant anti-trans rhetoric and pushing the likes of party leader Kier Starmer who publicly argued for forcibly outing LGBT youths to abusive parents and has piled on to the beyond fucking ridiculous cat identity hoax.

People aren't generous to Labour's bullshit for a reason.

Yeah, the issue for me is that I don't know why I'm supposed to give Labour the benefit of the doubt when, even in their explanation that would otherwise affirm their support of trans rights, they're still paying lipservice to transphobic dogwhistles. And I'm just supposed to assume they don't mean anything by it? I mean sure, maybe they don't, but I don't know how I'm supposed to overlook this.

Grimlyn posted...

has piled on to the beyond fucking ridiculous cat identity hoax

Ih has that jumped the pond to the UK as well?

Yet what it is in the end is an improvement of the current law. And of course you can also point to the many Labour MPs fighting for trans rights. They tried to have a big event for all the openly transphobic Labour MPs last year and they got eight out of two hundred. Just the fact that you know who Rosie Duffield, a complete nobody MP with no role is, but not (I assume) say Angela Eagle or Luke Pollard shows that online spaces are focusing purely on transphobes not trans allies.

Maniac64 posted...

Ih has that jumped the pond to the UK as well?

school bulllies were harassing a trans kid and their teacher called them out on it, kids pressed record on their phones and pushedthe argument with the teacher for soundbites to post on socials

in doing so the kids used the identify as a cat argument and the british press went into an uproar reporting that strawman argument from children as a factual occurrence within the school. Tory Minister for Women & Equalities Kemi Badenoch called for an Ofsted investigation.

School had to come out with a statement that no student has identified as a cat or any other animal, which unfortunately didn't matter to the press that all of a sudden stopped talking about it

https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1672217164168699905
https://twitter.com/johncosgrove405/status/1672116117630857218
https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1679503363367489537

I understand the pragmatic argument and I believe that Labour would be worlds better than the Tories (as with everything, no matter how much Labour sucks ass) but you have to understand how deflating that single bit about 'biological women' is in how non-seriously they seem to take this issue

Yeah to be clear I agree! My only real issue was the fact that it was not new but it was a dogwhistle for sure. The situation is toxic and its 100% down to the media. Ireland does not (much) have this issue despite being culturally pretty damn similar.

LightningStrikes posted...

And of course you can also point to the many Labour MPs fighting for trans rights.

"The party has people fight for and against trans peoples existence!" like really fuck off after you've routinely come in to express "UK is no more transphobic than the US" I'm fucking tired of you constantly downplaying that bigoted mess.

The leader of the party is spouting anti-trans talking points, rolling back commitments, and is absolutely fucking horrified to publicly argue in support of trans rights.

LightningStrikes posted...

online spaces are focusing purely on transphobes not trans allies.

Seriously get the absolute fuck out of here with your allies shit, if y'all could actually fucking stand up for trans people we wouldn't be in the miserable fucking mess that we're in. What fucking good are you allies doing when the party is out there officially reversing policy? Where is the actual substantive support pushing the party forward? Fucking nowhere.

Anti-trans rhetoric is the predominant narrative because they care a whole fuck lot more than allies do.

Theres not really much point in arguing with people who you agree with so Im not really sure what to say. I hate how many people in the same community fight among themselves when were all on the same side. And given that we dont actually disagree on much Im not really interested in having a big argument. However.

Have you perhaps considered that I might he much, much more affected by this than you? And, yknow, actually getting involved in the ground? Yet some Canadian is deciding to lecture me about things I have far more direct experience of that I am actually trying to do something about. You are, put bluntly, being an arsehole.

Grimlyn posted...

School had to come out with a statement that no student has identified as a cat or any other animal, which unfortunately didn't matter to the press that all of a sudden stopped talking about it

Yeah that sounds familiar.

Grimlyn posted...

Anti-trans rhetoric is the predominant narrative because they care a whole fuck lot more than allies do.

Also get out of here with this inherently transphobic crap. It is predominant because THEY OWN THE MEDIA, obviously!!!! Ridiculous.

LightningStrikes posted...

Also get out of here with this inherently transphobic crap.

Go fuck yourself bye.

I'm never tolerating cis "allies" telling trans people how good they are while they cape for inaction.