Board 8 > Post Your Hot Takes Regarding Ace Attorney

(+) Yeah! (+)

5-1 felt like a return to form to me and introduced a lot of stylistic points behind it. I actually like the new artwork and expressions a ton in it.

4-1 is also very good and up there to be fair. Easily the best case of 4 and its not very close. I think I somewhat enjoy the main characters in there more than the actual case work. Its flawed but has some charm

I love a lot about Dual Destinies (2nd favorite behind 3. Blackquill is probably my third favorite character in the series behind Edgeworth/Phoenix and Athena and Apollo were both very good) so it is kinda sad I found Spirit of Justice so disappointing in comparison

Yeah 5-1 is clearly the worst first case in the series and the worst case in DD, IMO. I'm sure it's consensus bottom three for first cases.

Liking stuff from 4 other than 4-1 is not a hot take!

I mean, 4-4 is good overall. Great investigation and first trial day, with the rest having its moments. The problem is A) final cases need to be great not good and B) it kind of fizzles as a conclusion because it really feels like a bunch of it was cut out.

2-1 is easily the worst first case and thats a fairly consensus issue. Im not sure if there is a consensus bottom three though above 2-1 you would typically see AAI1-1, 5-1 and 1-1.

Edit: If TGAA1-1 was an hour shorter it might have been the best intro case.

5-1 isn't my favorite but it's very underrated.

I thought 5-1 was completely fine. What's wrong with it?

SoJ is an interesting game to compare to DD because the later is about flawless consistency, and the former is about ups and downs. There are 3 cases in SoJ that are worse than every single case from DD, and 2 that are better, or at least as good, as every case from DD. Only average case is 6-1, which is still pretty solid for a first case.

So basically the Kura'In cases are fantastic, the Japanifornia cases are bad.

(Though again, "bad" in Ace Attorney is the same as "decent" in most videogame series)

I enjoyed 5-1, but I think its mostly just it being a back-to-basics first case without much special about it. The tutorials are largely good cases, 2-1 being the exception.

Wait a minute, youre either dunking on 6-2 or 6-3 there and both of those cases are excellent! Regardless Id say every case from SoJ is better than at least case 2 from DD. I havent played the DLC though and people dont seem to like that.

LightningStrikes posted...

Wait a minute, youre either dunking on 6-2 or 6-3 there and both of those cases are excellent! Regardless Id say every case from SoJ is better than at least case 2 from DD. I havent played the DLC though and people dont seem to like that.

6-2 isn't great.

I really love what they did with Trucy there (it's the first time in the series she feels like a human) and the twins are cool but talk about a lame ass villain. Made the whole thing anti-climatic.

So I take all of DD over it, yes.

Also 5-2 is another case people hate that I don't understand why.

I loved 6-2, it felt like the kind of thing Apollo Justice should have had as a finale. I also thought that Robert Downey Jr was a great villain with one of the best breakdowns for sure.

I dont dislike 5-2 its just a little tepid.

Hot take: Roger Retinz is great and his theme might be the all-time great villain theme

Breakdown isn't great, but SoJ's aren't very good in general.

Man I cant imagine people saying 6-1 wasnt a bottom 3 intro case

it was the first case I had to mute

6-1 was great. Loved everybidy singing along to the music

I still have some of the music during the testimony stuck in my head. Great opener, probably my number 5 (behind 4-1, I2-1, 3-1 and G2-1).

Hot take: Athena is a horrible character and her gimmick adds nothing to the series

Oh yes I think I have one more hot take:

The way Apollo Justice took Phoenixs character was fine. Instead the issue is more how they got him there which was outlandishly contrived. It makes sense to have the former lead as the grizzled boss in what was essentially a legacy sequel before legacy sequels were all over the place. There also isnt much issue with him pivoting back in Dual Destinies as the ending to AJ already sets this up. He had his dark night of the soul and was back as a practicing (and playable) lawyer in full standing. Where DD actually abruptly pivots is going from what would have been AJ2 with playable Phoenix to the Phoenix Wright show starring Phoenix Wright.

Yeah, the execution is the issue more than the fact that he exists at all. 4-0 is super contrived to railroad Phoenix into presenting forged evidence in a scenario where he doesn't need to do it. I also think he'd be a much better character if he simply weren't Phoenix Wright.

It also annoys me that it happens like two months after the end of 3-5. You couldn't put a little more space between the two? Phoenix is good as any lawyer could ever hope to be, and then two months later, he's disbarred. It feels like it's done in poor taste.

Even If 4-0 did a better job of not being entirely contrived, this is still the same universe where catching Manfred willfully forging evidence resulted in a completely frivolous penalty, ego damage withstanding. They never do anything to explain that disparity.

I haven't done the math, but I think Phoenix spends more time disbarred than he spends practicing Law, even adding all games in the series.

kevwaffles posted...

Even If 4-0 did a better job of not being entirely contrived, this is still the same universe where catching Manfred willfully forging evidence resulted in a completely frivolous penalty, ego damage withstanding. They never do anything to explain that disparity.

To be fair, legal rules in the series are anything but consistent.

ZeldaTPLink posted...

I haven't done the math, but I think Phoenix spends more time disbarred than he spends practicing Law, even adding all games in the series.

Much more time. AJ also presents the disbarment like absolutely no one in Phoenix's life giving a shit that it happened to him, as if they didn't exist in the writer's mind when making the story.

Phoenix being disbarred is legitimately one of the worst-executed plot twists I've ever seen in a game. The series never recovered from it.

I mean he clearly states that hes going to be reinstated at the end of that very game and is then the star of the next game. The next two main entries were very well received, DD smashed sales expectations and SoJ met them. So whatever you think of the decision itself I dont think it had much of a negative effect on the series in the long run.

LeonhartFour posted...

Yeah, the execution is the issue more than the fact that he exists at all. 4-0 is super contrived to railroad Phoenix into presenting forged evidence in a scenario where he doesn't need to do it. I also think he'd be a much better character if he simply weren't Phoenix Wright.

It also annoys me that it happens like two months after the end of 3-5. You couldn't put a little more space between the two? Phoenix is good as any lawyer could ever hope to be, and then two months later, he's disbarred. It feels like it's done in poor taste.

Let's not forget the fact that Phoenix could never have possibly forged that evidence himself on such short notice, meaning it's obvious someone set him up to begin with.

KamikazePotato posted...
Phoenix being disbarred is legitimately one of the worst-executed plot twists I've ever seen in a game. The series never recovered from it.

Yep. They spent several years trying to figure out how just how to undo all the damage it did. When AAI and then AAI2 came out, people thought the AA series was completely dead because of what AJ did to it.

LightningStrikes posted...

I mean he clearly states that hes going to be reinstated at the end of that very game and is then the star of the next game. The next two main entries were very well received, DD smashed sales expectations and SoJ met them. So whatever you think of the decision itself I dont think it had much of a negative effect on the series in the long run.

AJ was supposed to be it's own trilogy, like PW before it.

That's how badly AJ's backlash derailed the franchise.

Yeah I addressed that in an earlier post. They obviously knee-jerked by putting Phoenix so front and centre in DD but by the end of it well, we still got an Apollo trilogy and the series is literally selling better than it ever has. The part I object to is saying that the series never recovered, it seems like the series came back stronger.

LightningStrikes posted...

I mean he clearly states that hes going to be reinstated at the end of that very game and is then the star of the next game. The next two main entries were very well received, DD smashed sales expectations and SoJ met them. So whatever you think of the decision itself I dont think it had much of a negative effect on the series in the long run.

AA5 beat sales expectations because expectations were in the pits. It almost didn't get localized - a Capcom higher-up had to lie in order to get approval because of his faith in the series. Even then the sales weren't nearly as good compared to Apollo Justice, which had amazing sales in Japan thanks to goodwill from the DS trilogy re-release popping off. Nothing ever came close to AJ's opening sales numbers again.

Oh remembered another one

Franziska is the worst rival IMO and its not close

Franziska would be a much better character either without the whip or with the whip used about 90% less. It's played into the ground and the only character who ever does anything about it is Godot.

LightningStrikes posted...

I mean he clearly states that hes going to be reinstated at the end of that very game and is then the star of the next game. The next two main entries were very well received, DD smashed sales expectations and SoJ met them. So whatever you think of the decision itself I dont think it had much of a negative effect on the series in the long run.

He says "Maybe I'll take the bar again," but it's said almost in a joking way. I expect the implication is that he'll be back, but I don't know that it's clear.

Also the series has recovered, but it took a while. We still haven't gotten AAI2, it took us a long time to get GAA, and we didn't get physical copies in the west until GAA released a couple years ago.

KamikazePotato posted...

AA5 beat sales expectations because expectations were in the pits. It almost didn't get localized - a Capcom higher-up had to lie in order to get approval because of his faith in the series. Even then the sales weren't nearly as good compared to Apollo Justice, which had amazing sales in Japan thanks to goodwill from the DS trilogy re-release popping off. Nothing ever came close to AJ's opening sales numbers again.

AJs Japanese opening, no. However, worldwide the last two big releases (Trilogy HD and TGAAC) are the two best selling in the series by a lot. In fact a third of the series entire lifetime sales have been since 2018, largely thanks to those two. You also have to bear in mind the rise of digital - with that factored in DD likely matches AJs Japanese sales and it definitely beats it worldwide. Sales-wise the series is in the best place its been.

The worst place was easily right after 1 launched in the west, I was following the series from then and the mood when the NPD numbers came in was grim. Only 10k sold in its first month in North America, reports of massive caches of unsold games and so on. What followed was a super-unexpected word of mouth phenomenon keeping the series alive. Sales picked up in North America and it debuted strongly in Europe which led to us getting the sequels at all. It is basically just to show that you can never really count the series out.

I mean on the subject of NPD numbers by January 2009 (10-11 months from release) Apollo Justice had sold 71k in the US compared to 92k for T&T, 110k for JFA and 117k for PW1. When you account for release timing it was basically pacing like the others, maybe slightly below but not by much. Capcom were apparently happy with it. As far as I can tell the actual sales miss in the west was unfortunately AAI.

When a bad sequel comes out, that game often does well in sales based on the positivity people had based on its predecessors. The next game suffers more most of the time (AAI in this case).

AJ sells more if it's not brutalized by the same word of mouth that propelled the original game to relevancy.

MacArrowny posted...

When a bad sequel comes out, that game often does well in sales based on the positivity people had based on its predecessors. The next game suffers more most of the time (AAI in this case).

Correct, it's why MGS2 had monster sales and MGS3 had a big drop-off, for instance (from FFVIII to FFIX also applies).

This is absolutely a real thing (though less so now that games are selling over longer periods of time) but it can be hard to say when it applies. Like did MGS2 put people off or did MGS3 get buried by San Andreas/Halo 2/Half-Life 3 all releasing within about three weeks of it? Did Apollo Justice hurt AAI? Or was it that AAI was a spinoff, didnt have a great reception, and unlike previous games was only translated into English? We cant really know for sure.

Devil May Cry 2 -> 3
Mega Man Battle Network 4 -> 5

This happens to Capcom a lot.

There are other mitigating circumstances at play, sure, but the drop-off is so sharp that it can't be the only explanation.

MacArrowny posted...

When a bad sequel comes out, that game often does well in sales based on the positivity people had based on its predecessors. The next game suffers more most of the time (AAI in this case).

Imo that's also the reason why Batman vs Superman sold and Justice League didn't. I suspect people didn't go see the later because the former had already soured them on the franchise. Because I don't think the two movies are much different in quality. But I have no data for this.

KamikazePotato posted...

Devil May Cry 2 -> 3
Mega Man Battle Network 4 -> 5

This happens to Capcom a lot.

for a second i thought these were hot takes

I think the factor ya'll are missing with AAI is that DS software sales weren't as hot in general by 2010

LightningStrikes posted...

Yeah I addressed that in an earlier post. They obviously knee-jerked by putting Phoenix so front and centre in DD but by the end of it well, we still got an Apollo trilogy and the series is literally selling better than it ever has. The part I object to is saying that the series never recovered, it seems like the series came back stronger.

I think calling what we got an "Apollo trilogy" is kind of a stretch, even if it was maybe the intention

AA5/6 are very clearly Yamazaki games and have a completely different vibe and tone from AA4. AA5 basically feels like an Athena game and then when AA6 tries to finish off Apollo's arc it ends up just feeling like fanfiction to me

DD is an extremely safe game that tries to ignore almost anything that happened in AJ to try to get the series back on its feet (which was the right move), and then they could take some more risks with SoJ. Calling DD an Apollo game is a bit of a stretch, but he does have some good moments, at least.

It's hard to call AA5 an Athena game when she frontlines a grand total of one case, even if she's very plot important. Phoenix is the main character in 4 out of 6 cases.

AA5 is primarily Phoenix/Athena
AA6 is primarily Phoenix/Apollo

KamikazePotato posted...

It's hard to call AA5 an Athena game when she frontlines a grand total of one case, even if she's very plot important. Phoenix is the main character in 4 out of 6 cases.

It's an Athena game in the same sense that PW1 is an Edgeworth game. Her story drives the plot.

AA5 is kind of a mid game with a lame climax and I'm surprised by how many people are ranking it highly - different strokes and all, I like it because it's a big step up from AA4 but I don't think it's the best the series has to offer

Not a hot take, but T&T is the best the series has to offer. DD is a fine second place though!

Paratroopa1 posted...

AA5 is kind of a mid game with a lame climax and I'm surprised by how many people are ranking it highly - different strokes and all, I like it because it's a big step up from AA4 but I don't think it's the best the series has to offer

like 3 and e2, is simply very consistent. its peak isn't as amazing as any game outside of 4 and e1, but other than 5-1 it's just rock solid throughout. 5-2, 5-3, 5-5, and 5-6 are all squarely above average to excellent

I also think 5-4 is generally an underrated case because people don't think of it as a standalone case, but as a prologue to 5-5 since it blatantly ends unfinished (3-4 is the same way but people love that one...!). Yuri Cosmo is a fantastic witness, and the twist at the end is one of the few moments in the series to elicit a verbal "whaaaaaaaaaaat" from me.