Board 8 > Post Your Hot Takes Regarding Ace Attorney

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Bitto
03/20/23 11:13:10 PM
#303:


Eh, I'm a little low on DD. I think it's a fine game, but I have it in the lower half of AA games. 5-1 is whatever, 5-2 is a good introduction to Blackquill but that's it, 5-3 is really good and really bad at the same time, 5-4 is alright but not really a case, and 5-5 is good but not so great as a climax. 5-6 is excellent, though.

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LeonhartFour
03/20/23 11:14:04 PM
#304:


oh hey right on cue

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Crescent-Moon
03/20/23 11:14:38 PM
#305:


One issue I have though: I get that 5-3 avoids what seems to be an obvious guilty verdict at the end of day 1 by having two other people suddenly confess to the crime to mess with the system, but..

I still have no idea how 5-2 avoids a guilty verdict on day 1 just because Temna pretends to have a breakdown after your defense has been thoroughly shredded.

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Bitto
03/20/23 11:15:42 PM
#306:


I think there's a big difference between 3-4 and 5-4! I do think B8 loves 3-4 more than they should. It's a good case, but not top 15.

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LeonhartFour
03/20/23 11:16:01 PM
#307:


Crescent-Moon posted...
I still have no idea how 5-2 avoids a guilty verdict on day 1 just because Temna pretends to have a breakdown after your defense has been thoroughly shredded.

The Judge refused to break kayfabe

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Crescent-Moon
03/20/23 11:16:12 PM
#308:


LeonhartFour posted...
I also think 5-4 is generally an underrated case because people don't think of it as a standalone case, but as a prologue to 5-5 since it blatantly ends unfinished (3-4 is the same way but people love that one...!). Yuri Cosmo is a fantastic witness, and the twist at the end is one of the few moments in the series to elicit a verbal "whaaaaaaaaaaat" from me.
5-4 is a fine case that gets a bad rap for it's abrupt end, but it's abrupt end is supposed to happen. I was left exiting that case wondering if this was somehow all completely botched and Simon was the only one in the courtroom who was actually right.

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Crescent-Moon
03/20/23 11:18:23 PM
#309:


Oh speaking of that another hot take:

5-5 would've hit way harder if Athena actually had been guilty of something.

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LeonhartFour
03/20/23 11:18:41 PM
#310:


seriously though, 5-2 avoids the guilty verdict because Apollo desperately presents the possibility that the air duct was used during the crime, which Blackquill can't definitively refute

and the game immediately squashes that possibility during the second investigation day, which I thought was kinda great, it's rare for the playable protagonist to be so thoroughly wrong on a hypothesis

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LeonhartFour
03/20/23 11:20:28 PM
#311:


Crescent-Moon posted...
Oh speaking of that another hot take:

5-5 would've hit way harder if Athena actually had been guilty of something.

5-5 would've been better if the game had made an effort to have Edgeworth recognize the similarities between Athena's circumstances and his own with DL-6

not sure what else Athena could've been guilty of unless you want her to be the murderer

maybe they could nail her for tampering with the crime scene or something like they did with Iris

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Crescent-Moon
03/20/23 11:24:49 PM
#312:


LeonhartFour posted...
5-5 would've been better if the game had made an effort to have Edgeworth recognize the similarities between Athena's circumstances and his own with DL-6

not sure what else Athena could've been guilty of unless you want her to be the murderer

maybe they could nail her for tampering with the crime scene or something like they did with Iris
I like the whole thing they did with Apollo knowing she was lying her ass off because of his BS powers and heading out to investigate on his own, but ultimately they made very little of it. That angle wasn't pursued enough and ended up as short lived window dressing.

Oh and yes, 5-5 Edgeworth feels... Lacking. It doesn't feel like Edgeworth.

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LeonhartFour
03/20/23 11:26:50 PM
#313:


It feels like Yamazaki didn't know how to write Edgeworth as the rival prosecutor because he's not great in 6-6 either. He's still good outside of court though. The Phoenix/Edgeworth sequence in 6-5 is excellent.

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Paratroopa1
03/20/23 11:27:17 PM
#314:


Crescent-Moon posted...
I like the whole thing they did with Apollo knowing she was lying her ass off because of his BS powers and heading out to investigate on his own, but ultimately they made very little of it. That angle wasn't pursued enough and ended up as short lived window dressing.
Yeah, I wish they had done more with this too. Apollo's bracelet giving him false positives and not being able to discern what someone's lying about is a GREAT idea, but they didn't really follow through on it in a way that was really interesting in 5-5 in my opinion. I kind of agree that it might have been a bit more interesting if Athena really had done something shady or knew more than she was letting on, but I'm not totally sure how I would rewrite the case to feature that because there frankly isn't a lot going on - the mystery behind that case is actually pretty boring imo.
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BetrayedTangy
03/20/23 11:30:04 PM
#315:


I think 3-4 feels more distinct because it not only hypes up the final case, but it also answers a ton of questions that had been sprinkled across the first 3 cases.

Don't get me wrong I still enjoy the events of 5-4, but my brain absolutely combines 5-4 and 5-5 into the same case.

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Crescent-Moon
03/20/23 11:33:26 PM
#316:


They're related, but it's not like it is in GAA2. GAA2's cases 4 and 5 are actually the same case. In the middle of an investigation phase, it just switches from 4 to 5 without any warning.

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Paratroopa1
03/20/23 11:43:03 PM
#317:


Crescent-Moon posted...
They're related, but it's not like it is in GAA2. GAA2's cases 4 and 5 are actually the same case. In the middle of an investigation phase, it just switches from 4 to 5 without any warning.
Yeah, G2-4 and G2-5 really bothered and annoyed me - felt like I was cheated out of there being a real fifth case. 5-4 and 5-5 are different to me because they represent a very major shift in the trial and both cases end up covering almost completely different topics - 5-5 is only barely about the murder of Clay Terran at all, the only deduction that really gets made there is how the Phantom escaped from the crime scene, the actual crime itself is moot by that point.
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Crescent-Moon
03/20/23 11:57:12 PM
#318:


Random note: As soon as attention was drawn to that suitcase early on, I immediately assumed a body was either inside it or was at some point inside it.

It just felt right!

But yes, GAA2 only has 4 cases, the last case is just the longest in the series by quite a fair margin, and they decided to "split" it into two because of it. There's enough material to justify it being two cases, but AAI2 does it much better.

You solve case 4, and then you get the call "Can you truly in good conscience say this case is solved?" All those little unresolved loose ends start to pile back on, because you haven't actually completed the case at all. However, case 5 isn't just a direct continuation of case 4, it immediately adds more plot dynamics and a very important new death to form it's own identity despite following immediately in the footsteps of the case before it. Case 5 in GAA2 doesn't do anything to actually merit being separated.

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LeonhartFour
03/21/23 7:57:51 PM
#319:


it's weird how Takumi knew how to be succinct during his original run through the series but he became just as long-winded as the main series with Layton/AA and the GAA games

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_SJimW_
03/22/23 3:27:07 AM
#320:


LeonhartFour posted...
it's weird how Takumi knew how to be succinct during his original run through the series but he became just as long-winded as the main series with Layton/AA and the GAA games

My theory is that this has less to do with the writers and more to do with hardware limitations

The original trilogy were crammed onto GBA carts and they basically made the most of what they could do

Longer dev times for the newer games and an industry where the expectation is now that every full-priced non-indie retail game is supposed to last dozens of hours minimum probably didn't help with this either

Probaby one of the most obvious cases of "limitation breeds creativity" I can think of in the industry. Along with stuff the final 3D OoT-style Zelda being Skyward Sword, a bloated as hell game that probably had the developers cram every idea they had into it, whether or not those ideas were good or bad.

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ZeldaTPLink
03/22/23 5:16:56 AM
#321:


Donkey Kong 64.

We have this thing called expansion pack that increases the available memory so let's break the guiness record for most collectables in a single game. We don't have that many ideas though, so let's just design levels that look more like theme parks than actual worlds and repeat each minigame 7 times.

The fact that guiness record stays unbroken almost 30 years later suggests it wasn't a great idea.
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LightningStrikes
03/22/23 5:39:05 AM
#322:


Yeah I am also inclined to thank that, with the exception of maybe AAI2 it was more a factor of design than not knowing when to stop writing. Starting around the mid-2010s single player games began getting much longer than they had been in order to maintain perceived (emphasis on that) value and keep people playing them for longer so they sell for longer. This affected all genres and most franchises so I dont see why Ace Attorney would be any different. Its why The Last of Us Part II is double the length of the first game. Or why people complained that Spider-Man being 15 hours was too short.

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Paratroopa1
03/22/23 5:50:24 AM
#323:


Is the hot take actually that I'm perfectly fine with the length of the Ace Attorney games and that I like them long
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Leonhart4
03/22/23 8:30:00 AM
#324:


I don't mind the length most of the time. I'm always down for more Ace Attorney, but some cases definitely feel their length and overstay their welcome (looking at you, E2-2).

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SeabassDebeste
03/22/23 10:01:06 AM
#325:


yeah, i've stated it already, but i don't have an issue with Gabe lengths; it's more case lengths that are too long

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Crescent-Moon
03/23/23 6:09:37 PM
#326:


With every AA game, I've replayed it about a year later to see how my impressions hold up.

GAA's first case still holds up fairly well. You get a surprising amount of pushback, and the case is designed to have an unfulfilling conclusion, which it does well. Jezaille slowly unraveling not out of any sort of fear of punishment, but just because she's being outwitted at the game by someone "inferior" to her really sells her arrogance. The divide between the nations is made a little too obvious by Auchi, but she really puts it into practice (it's a shame she gets completely wasted by GAA2). As far as first cases go, it's pretty alright.

The second case is so.. Dull. They try to flavor it up with Sholmes, but there isn't any high point at all, and it mostly just leaves me feeling numb and going through the motions. I remember clearing this case in one night at some absurd time the first time waiting for what felt like an obvious point to leave it off at, and it just doesn't have one. It belongs in the discussion of worst second case in the series that isn't 1-2 (the worst case in the series), not because it's bad, but because it's just not interesting or gripping at all. I think having no trial segment at all seriously hurts it.

Reminder: It has a KITTY so it's automatic top tier regardless.

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Paratroopa1
03/23/23 7:54:54 PM
#327:


I think G1-1 is actually a really good case right up until the point where they spend nearly a full hour on the bit about the plate with the coin being swapped. I saw through the ENTIRE thing in basically one thought - 'oh, the plates were swapped' - and expected it to be cleared up in one present, but they took forever to clarify something that was really simple. That dragged down the case big time for me - everything up to that point was really well executed.
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Leonhart4
03/23/23 8:15:04 PM
#328:


Yeah, sometimes AA gets caught up on really obvious points.

I do like G1-1 quite a bit for an intro case. Brett is a great villain.

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Paratroopa1
03/23/23 8:18:59 PM
#329:


Leonhart4 posted...
Yeah, sometimes AA gets caught up on really obvious points.
Sometimes, but this is probably one of the most egregious examples of it I can think of. It's pretty rare for the game to stretch out what should be a single present for an HOUR.
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Leonhart4
03/23/23 8:24:47 PM
#330:


I feel like 3-2 has a bad one too with the whole "what is the red jewel" thing

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Paratroopa1
03/23/23 8:27:17 PM
#331:


Leonhart4 posted...
I feel like 3-2 has a bad one too with the whole "what is the red jewel" thing
Kinda, but that's like one, maybe two presents. It's pretty pathetically obvious but it's over pretty quick. G1-1, they have to do the whole rigamarole of dragging out two whole witnesses for something of the same caliber!
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Leonhart4
03/23/23 8:30:06 PM
#332:


I feel like it lasted a bit longer than that, but maybe I'm misremembering.

I'm trying to think of other egregious examples.

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Paratroopa1
03/23/23 8:32:53 PM
#333:


The first thing that popped into my head was 11037 but then I was like wait, wrong series
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Leonhart4
03/23/23 8:34:44 PM
#334:


The best example of "we didn't think about English localization when we did this" in any VN, so I actually kinda love that one

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NFUN
03/23/23 8:48:30 PM
#335:


Paratroopa1 posted...
Sometimes, but this is probably one of the most egregious examples of it I can think of. It's pretty rare for the game to stretch out what should be a single present for an HOUR.
6-3 the entire second day. Maybe I'm alone but I wanted them to listen to the supposed Plumed Punisher since the moment the seance showed it

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Crescent-Moon
03/23/23 10:20:56 PM
#336:


That whole plate thing lasts like... 15-20 minutes tops.

Anyways, case 2 is over. Only the very end of it has any real punch at all. Onto case 3 a bit later. The smarminess of McGilded awaits. So much nags at you, all the little convenient things that suddenly happen in your favor to keep your case alive, which usually go against you to almost kill your case... I remember really starting to doubt before this case was over. Let's see how it holds up~

Which reminds me:

Do you say he might be guilty at the last choice, or do you push for acquittal? dundundun.

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Crescent-Moon
03/25/23 12:23:31 PM
#337:


Ah McGilded. While not quite the force I remembered you as, you were playing chess and everyone else was playing checkers. This case does a good job of building up to the realization that this guy is almost certainly guilty, but there's no longer anything you can do about it. I really appreciate how it heavily implies his guilt, but it never actually says he is guilty at any point. Unlike Brett, his immediate death doesn't feel wasted, because it directly ties into "The Reaper" lore, and it even plays a part in case 5.

Like case 1, it leaves the entire case surrounded in this aura that it's not really over yet at all. Some people dislike this, but I think GAA handles it's "unsatisfying" resolutions pretty well. While GAA2's primary case 3 villain is better (arguably the best in both GAA games), McGilded's smarminess and way with words makes him more than memorable. Everything about him from the start felt gray area.

Though perhaps the biggest mystery of all is upcoming... Why is Soseki prominent 3 times in 4 consecutive cases? His schtick barely lasts through one.

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LightningStrikes
03/25/23 1:06:49 PM
#338:


It would have made a lot more sense if TGAA2 case 2 was actually TGAA2 case 1 (indeed 2 is of course before 1 chronologically) but then you would either be introducing investigations at the very start or remove that part and have to significantly delay the Sholmes investigation sections.

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ZeldaTPLink
04/03/23 8:29:14 PM
#339:


Watch a show called The Law According to Lidia Poet. It's on Netflix.

It's AA, but in 19th century Italy, with a female lawyer, based on a RL story. So basically, Great Ace Attorney with 10x more sexism (though I haven't played that one myself).

Main character won the first case by pulling some amazing bluffs. Good stuff.
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HanOfTheNekos
04/04/23 10:47:55 AM
#340:


Is there a good way to play AA5 and 6 nowadays now that the 3ds shop is dead?

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kevwaffles
04/04/23 11:09:52 AM
#341:


They've been on iPhone and Android for years and are perfectly playable on those afaik. I played 6 on Android myself.

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Kenri
04/04/23 12:26:03 PM
#342:


They're not on Android anymore. Idk about iOS.

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NFUN
04/04/23 12:29:36 PM
#343:


HanOfTheNekos posted...
Is there a good way to play AA5 and 6 nowadays now that the 3ds shop is dead?
hack your ds

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RaidenGarai
04/04/23 12:55:53 PM
#344:


Theyre still on iOS, and I believe Steam and Switch as well

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kevwaffles
04/04/23 4:07:36 PM
#345:


Kenri posted...
They're not on Android anymore. Idk about iOS.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=jp.co.capcom.gyakusai5en
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=jp.co.capcom.gyakusai6en

???

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MacArrowny
04/04/23 4:08:57 PM
#346:


Kenri posted...
They're not on Android anymore. Idk about iOS.

RaidenGarai posted...
Theyre still on iOS, and I believe Steam and Switch as well
I like this confident misinformation. Such is the era of people getting their news from facebook.

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kevwaffles
04/04/23 4:11:50 PM
#347:


RaidenGarai posted...
Theyre still on iOS, and I believe Steam and Switch as well
4-6 are not on Steam for now. 1-3 are, as well as GAA.

Quick Google search did not indicate they were on Switch, but I'm not sure there.

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kevwaffles
04/04/23 4:14:34 PM
#348:


MacArrowny posted...
I like this confident misinformation. Such is the era of people getting their news from facebook.
Kenri could be remembering Ghost Trick but I'm not sure that was ever on Android. Speaking of which, THAT is on Steam.

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MacArrowny
04/04/23 4:18:41 PM
#349:


Ghost Trick is coming to Steam (and consoles) on June 29.

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Kenri
04/04/23 4:23:12 PM
#350:


I literally searched it on the Play store before posting that. It isn't there anymore. Trilogy and Apollo are but not 5 and 6.

It's funny, the last time someone on B8 said this they were also not believed. Speaking of confidently incorrect...!

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kevwaffles
04/04/23 4:23:17 PM
#351:


Yeah, I guess "is" would be jumping the gun. I never buy a game that old not on sale so I tend to lose track.

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kevwaffles
04/04/23 4:24:29 PM
#352:


Kenri posted...
I literally searched it on the Play store before posting that. It isn't there anymore. Trilogy and Apollo are but not 5 and 6.

It's funny, the last time someone on B8 said this they were also not believed. Speaking of confidently incorrect...!
I linked to them though?

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