Board 8 > Post Your Hot Takes Regarding Ace Attorney

(+) Yeah! (+)

I still remember fearing that the series had jumped the shark when the Phantom pulled off his mask for the first time and Solomon Starbuck's face was underneath because it made zero sense for it to be him.

Top notch fakeout.

Nah, AJ itself was the shark jump and they spent many years trying to figure out how to fix the damage.

Japanifornia is a great localization choice, especially so for its time period.

Not sure if this is a hot take, but I see a lot of people mocking Ace Attorneys localization in a disparaging way these days.

It's so wild that 1-1 and a clock shaped like The Thinker basically has dictated the entire Ace Attorney universe because of the need to determine a time zone for it.

Bitto posted...

Japanifornia is a great localization choice, especially so for its time period.

Not sure if this is a hot take, but I see a lot of people mocking Ace Attorneys localization in a disparaging way these days.

I think the rise(?) of translation purism among some circles has caused that.

KamikazePotato posted...

I think the rise(?) of translation purism among some circles has caused that.

All according to keikaku

(Translator's note: "Keikaku" means "Plan")

Leonhart4 posted...

It's so wild that 1-1 and a clock shaped like The Thinker basically has dictated the entire Ace Attorney universe because of the need to determine a time zone for it.

That one contradiction saved the Butz!

KamikazePotato posted...

I think the rise(?) of translation purism among some circles has caused that.

There's definitely been a rise in translation purism, but I feel like I saw a lot of mocking of AA's localisation back in ~2007 too. Specifically the Japanifornia stuff.

Japanifornia has been a pervasive meme since the "Eat your hamburgers, Apollo" thing.

Bitto posted...

Japanifornia is a great localization choice, especially so for its time period.

Not sure if this is a hot take, but I see a lot of people mocking Ace Attorneys localization in a disparaging way these days.

Nah, it's a tiny minority doing the disparaging. AA's localization is genius.

KamikazePotato posted...

I think the rise(?) of translation purism among some circles has caused that.

no, it just obviously don't make sense a lot of the time. like people make fun of brock calling rice balls "jelly donuts" because he looks like a clown, not because of any ideology

The localization definitely struggles when it comes to certain things, but it's funny.

Honestly if there was a localization oscar I'd give it to whoever did 6-4.

Not because it's that good just out of regonition for having to deal with that.

6-4's localization IS really good though, it's almost absurd how smooth the localization is considering everything they had to do to make it work

4-2 > 4-1

is this a hot take? 4-2 is pretty much the only case in AJ I enjoyed, despite wesley stickler shenanigans

Wesley Stickler is a fun character despite his own shenanigans

Paratroopa1 posted...

6-4's localization IS really good though, it's almost absurd how smooth the localization is considering everything they had to do to make it work

I love how Blackquill is a giant weeb in our version and he's presumably a giant weeb in the original version in completely different senses that make him a dork either way

The Japanifornia localization choice, along with the way the series localizes character names, is incredible, but it's also kinda lightning in a bottle and not something that would work if they tried it for 99% of other things. It just transforms the work the exact right amount to translate the wackiness of the original Japanese script to an American setting. It's exactly the kind of thing so many 90s anime tried and failed to do properly.

colliding posted...

4-2 > 4-1

is this a hot take? 4-2 is pretty much the only case in AJ I enjoyed, despite wesley stickler shenanigans

My insanely hot take is that I think AJ kinda gets better with every case in a way, 4-2 being better than 4-1 is the only one I'm not sure of. 4-1 has probably the best moments in the game but from like an actual gameplay perspective it's very obviously a tutorial still and very much held back by that.

I loved that 4-1 introduced a new gameplay mechanic that never showed up again, so it kinda fails as a tutorial...!

What's that referring to again

Crescent-Moon posted...

What's that referring to again

They did a "recreate the crime scene" tutorial where you had to move stuff around. They even advertised it on the back of the case!

I thought you meant that but I remembered it happening at other times but that only happened again in AAI

Klavier is not a good character. They give him 4-3 and 4-4 to have a personal connection in both cases and, both times, he doesn't seem particularly affected in any strong way. He doesn't really have any memorable moments other than having relatively good court animations.

Klavier is more enjoyable outside of court than in it.

The main issue with Klavier is that he doesnt have enough screen time. He really should have prosecuted at least one case in 5 or 6. If you look at Apollo Justice he doesnt get introduced until youre basically a third of the way through the game already, he prosecutes three cases and then is basically a glorified cameo after that. Of those three cases, one is just an introduction, one gives him some stuff to do and one seriously underutilises him. Hes a good character he just needed more. That is basically the AA4 story. I will say that hes good in 4-3, some nice moments there like when hes fuming after the concert at the beginning or his big scene with the culprit. None of these are hot takes though!

There are a lot of good moments in 4-3, enough to push it over at least 2-1 (consistently terrible throughout) and 2-3 (good stuff at the end but takes so long to reach that point it doesnt matter) as far as cases nobody likes go. I might even put it over AAI1-3 which was just dull.

Oh yeah I guess I have a hot take there: E1-3 is the second best case in the game

klavier's issue is absolutely not screen time; edgeworth was in three cases by the end of 1-4 and was a fully fledged character. those were shorter cases klavier was part of, too. the writers simply neglected to do much with him. which is... fine, i guess.

SeabassDebeste posted...

klavier's issue is absolutely not screen time; edgeworth was in three cases by the end of 1-4 and was a fully fledged character. those were shorter cases klavier was part of, too. the writers simply neglected to do much with him. which is... fine, i guess.

From my line counts.

Edgeworth in PW1 - 1060
Klavier in AJ - 1061

I would argue that if AA1 was played as it originally released Edgeworth would not be as great a character as he is in the version we (presumably) all played for the first time since 1-5 does a lot to develop him. Of course if you look at it as relative to the whole game Edgeworth gets introduced earlier and the case where he is the defendant takes up nearly half of the original release of that game. By contrast the last case of Apollo Justice is actually pretty short (not sure if it was ever confirmed but it really feels like a bunch of stuff got cut) and where a lot of Klaviers development would go just seems to be missing. Klavier like the whole game seems to build to a climax that never arrives.

Edgeworth in PW1 isn't intended to be likable (I think Takumi has said as much), but he's a fully formed character.

Leonhart4 posted...

Oh yeah I guess I have a hot take there: E1-3 is the second best case in the game

Incredibly predictable plot twist though. Saw it coming the moment it was announced as a kidnapping.

Bitto posted...

He doesn't really have any memorable moments other than having relatively good court animations.

To me his warpath moment when you first accuse Kristoph in 4-4 is pretty memorable and one of the only moments that shows he actually deserves his reputation as a great prosecutor. Unfortunately once you weather that he's more or less broken for the rest of the case and just lets you do whatever you want.

Leonhart4 posted...

Edgeworth in PW1 isn't intended to be likable (I think Takumi has said as much), but he's a fully formed character.

This is absolutely just a "we were writing the game in the late 90s/early 00s and didn't understand what makes fans like a character yet" thing though. There's no way Edgeworth was ever going to be not likeable with his character arc lmao

LightningStrikes posted...

I would argue that if AA1 was played as it originally released Edgeworth would not be as great a character as he is in the version we (presumably) all played for the first time since 1-5 does a lot to develop him. Of course if you look at it as relative to the whole game Edgeworth gets introduced earlier and the case where he is the defendant takes up nearly half of the original release of that game. By contrast the last case of Apollo Justice is actually pretty short (not sure if it was ever confirmed but it really feels like a bunch of stuff got cut) and where a lot of Klaviers development would go just seems to be missing. Klavier like the whole game seems to build to a climax that never arrives.

A climax that never arrives ums up AJ in general. The final case starts alright and then just continuously weakens. The mason system is a bloated, awkward investigation that drags on and afterwards you get a very quick and completely underwhelming finale even just based on the investigation they just put you through. The entire jurist thing is effectively wasted and the series never even alludes to it again.

It just kinda... Goes out with a whimper. The black psyche locks feel hokey and forced, and it's actually made worse by DD's explanation. Even given that, you have no idea of why Kristoph had them in AJ. The plotline gives you a crappy reason why he hates Phoenix so much, but never gives you any indication of why he would have something so deep seated.

The game itself was a half-baked mess that they never really figured out what to do with.

Hot take: The Mason System is great

But 4-4's second trial day gets undermined by its own structure. There's only one testimony the entire day, and it's the easiest Perceive in the game, to boot. The rest of the day is Klavier and Kristoph arguing while the judge occasionally prompts Apollo to present evidence just to remind you that he's actually there. Then the jurist vote is undermined by having the player do it and revealing Phoenix is continuing to play dirty by putting Lamiroir on the jury.

I actually think how easy that Perceive is works thematically. Otherwise yeah it does not work as a conclusion. The game screams I had problems in development when you get to the last case. I would love to hear some behind the scenes info on the game.

Leonhart4 posted...

Hot take: The Mason System is great

not a hot take!

LightningStrikes posted...

I would argue that if AA1 was played as it originally released Edgeworth would not be as great a character as he is in the version we (presumably) all played for the first time since 1-5 does a lot to develop him.

entirely disagree; 1-5 felt awkwardly non-canon even when i played it given that they rolled the credits after 1-4.

Yeah, I don't think 1-5 did much to build Edgeworth's character. It did more for Phoenix than him.

1-5 definitely feels totally out of place, by the way. Get major "side story" vibes from it.

DragonGargoyle posted...

Yeah, I don't really think of Edgeworth's appearance in 1-5 much, personally. iirc it also felt like it quite fit with he rest of the trilogy, althought I can't exactly remeber why that is

Edgeworth was at his best in 1-3 and 1-4 imo. I liked seeing his relationships with Franziska and Kay and Sebastian in later games, but it was those two cases that made him top tier for me

Edgeworth's worldview breaks in 1-4 and he spends some time evaluating it, coming back with a new worldview at 2-4. 1-5 is supposed to take part during the period where he is evaluating it. It does fit awkwardly in the continuity but it doesn't quite contradict it.

It's better than having him in E1-4 caring about finding the truth and having him be more of a nice guy than he actually should be at that point.

Disagree, Edgeworth was never actually all the way bad.

LightningStrikes posted...

Disagree, Edgeworth was never actually all the way bad.

No, he wasn't, but you've basically retroactively made him a better person than he actually was at the time.

At the very least, he shouldn't care one iota (nor should Franziska or Manfred) about a contest to see "who can find the truth first."

I would say such pettiness with Edgeworth fits into her character.

She'd have a contest to beat Edgeworth at anything, but it wouldn't be a contest to find the truth, or at the very least, neither one would be above cheating. They're both more earnest than they'd actually be at that point.

Swap E1-4 Edgeworth with 6-6 Edgeworth and you get the correct characterizations for each point in time.

Almost like... a Turnabout Time Travel

1-5 only feels out of place on replays imo, your first time through AA1 you don't really have any sense for how these games are "supposed" to be structured so it just feels like the game has a weirdly climatic middle point with 1-4

SeabassDebeste posted...

not a hot take!

How isn't it a hot take? I haven't kept up with Ace Attorney discourse as much in the last decade so I dunno if people have turned around on it, but at release it was completely lambasted. And from what I've seen, any fondness that's grown towards AJ has mostly been in a "it's flawed but interesting and the first two cases were really good for the first two cases" kind of way

I think liking anything about AJ other than 4-1 can qualify as a hot take...!

So I started G1

first case was actually my favorite of the first cases with 5-1 probably the closest? Zero clue if thats a hot take though since the original trilogy doesnt have any that are strong other than 3-1

Favorite first cases are generally 3-1, 4-1, and E2-1, so that qualifies as a hot take

Having 5-1 as your favorite main series intro case is a hotter take though...!