Board 8 > Star Trek Mafia - Topic 2: These Are The Voyages

(+) Yeah! (+)

MZero posted...

First of all, weren't you scum the last two games? I can't exactly explain why, but it feels unnatural to be comparing your current playstyle as town to previous scum games. Might be nothing but I wanted to point it out.

I was town D1 of Xenoblade mafia, so I'm not only comparing myself to scum games. But also I'm not really talking about anything alignment specific. I think I had trouble leading the game in a direction I wanted. I would like my influence to be clearer and easier to follow for other people regardless of my alignment.

MZero posted...

As for my question, what role could Sheep have claimed that you would have said didn't match with him following your soft claim? Since you said Vanilla made sense, I'm wondering what wouldn't have.

I think I did say this when I unvoted, but I think if scum Sheep had a manufactured scum claim that he was trying to jump on my soft claim with, it would be something that lends him an advantage if he's caught doing something. So if he has a role that visits people, and is afraid of a tracker/watcher, then he might claim something with movement associated with it. Maybe he claims a Psychic so that no one will visit him. Maybe following Ulti's suggestion of something crazy like Paranoid Gun Owner, though I don't know if that's a banned role in B8 or not. Or maybe even just claims to be a Miller but didn't want to claim it outright, and was hoping I would same-time claim with him if he thought I was trying to claim Miller. Though I think we would have outright killed him if he claimed Miller there.

I think most of these examples are probably bad except the first one, which is also the one I mentioned with my unvote. I think claiming Vanilla doesn't do anything to influence night actions like a lot of these other claims would, which is why it's less likely to be a scum trying to influence night actions to avoid detection.

Hello Death, my old friend. I regret to inform you that I must now pass out, so I will not offer you the same hand of engagement I extended to BCT and MZero a moment ago. Impress me by yourself. >:(
Also Mondays are rough, no biggie. Good luck out there.

Chaeix posted...

So I just went back and did an ISO of Death to see whether my gut had any logic that could either be correct, or confirmation bias, only time will tell.

Death, you have offered shockingly few actual opinions. The entirety of your content this topic has been asking Sheep his thoughts on people, with a few stray words here and there. Even outside of asking Sheep his thoughts on people, almost everything you've said since post 250 of Topic 1 has been in discussion with Sheep, or about Sheep.

What are your thoughts on the game outside of Sheep?

Now I will get back to this once I have properly caught up. But I feel offended enough to want to correct you, because I have said more than stuff about Sheep and you even state that. But maybe all of those posts were too subtle for you, so I will start by repeating myself

I like BCT and Crescent
Wallmaster had a good start. His only questionable moment to me was when he voted Sheep and even that at least was given a proper explanation quickly.
I am less confident in EDumey being town because of the way he unvoted Sheep, though I cant 100 % square him and Sheep being scum together.
Mzero should post more and I still dont know why you were so positive about him. Him soft defending Sheep is interesting either way.

As for other players
Chris and Han seem a bit understated but otherwise havent triggered any flags.
Lea I like, she seems to be invested while also keeping her funny streak. A dead serious Lea would worry me more. The longer she keeps that vote on me though, the less funny she becomes.

And I really like Sultan actually. I have skimmed this topic, but what I did catch of him came across as him trying to solve the game and also trying to convince other players. I particularly like his input on your list, even if I will check for myself whether or not such lists are out of character for you.

Ulti I also need to recheck (Chris did ask and all). But I dont see the take where people call him inactive as usual. This day feels rather active... compared to Ulti's usual levels.

If I didnt mention someone, they are in a blind spot right now. Players like Ctes.

That said, Sultan should explain that comment about me he made last page.

Oh its literally only Ctes that is in my blind area, lol.

Why is it interesting MZero softdefended Sheep yet you have nothing on me when I did the same thing.

Anyway I kinda made the mistake of catching up earlier before getting out of bed so it happened half asleep, I need to do it properly.

I do recall Sultan managing to blow my mind though lol.

Death I think in the previous game played more of a "voice of reason" but as JC pointed out, Death has only really pinged people for questions so far, so Death has not impressed me yet.

Why does it look like you havent read my posts at all, EDumey? But rather only read what JC said about me. (and not even correctly at that)

Heck some could say that you are doing a lot of pinging people for questions yourself.
I know thats not all you did. You at least worded some decent arguments about JC and his list that I do agree with. But I am wondering when the information gathering of yours will pay off.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Why is it interesting MZero softdefended Sheep yet you have nothing on me when I did the same thing.

You did? I will admit that I missed that then.
Either way it was interesting to me because that was the only thing Mzero did that had any content. At least when I asked that question.

And I wanted Sheeps opinion on Mzero locked down for the future

Also I hope you find that Sultan mindblowing moment again, Ctes.
(not joking. I can believe that Sultan would cause such a reaction)

I initially only noticed MZero did because Sheep kept mentioning we both did lol. Of course I also spoke against Sheep later.

For me it was Crescent mentioning Mzero that made me remember him.
(Her post was quoted last page even)

htaeD posted...

Also I hope you find that Sultan mindblowing moment again, Ctes.

Oh, I recall clearly what it was. It was when he called me out for a list, and then did the exact same thing immediately after.

htaeD posted...

I am less confident in EDumey being town because of the way he unvoted Sheep, though I cant 100 % square him and Sheep being scum together.

The whole process of Dumey gradually building up to voting Sheep and unvoting immediately after the claim rubs me the wrong way but I haven't been able to put it in words exactly. It didn't seem like he really wanted to be on that train from the start and kind of forced it.

htaeD posted...

You did? I will admit that I missed that then.
Either way it was interesting to me because that was the only thing Mzero did that had any content. At least when I asked that question.

And I wanted Sheeps opinion on Mzero locked down for the future

Again, I was going after Dumey and was asked directly if I thought his read of Sheep (leaning scum) was wrong, so I answered him. I don't think answering a question posed to me is that interesting!

Alright thats fair. You did also question EDumey a little.
Though in general I find softdefense posts to be more worthy of follow-up than suspecting posts.

I think having slept on it I feel better about Sheep again. I still don't think his opening post makes any kind of sense as town vanilla. In a world where Sheep gains little attention for it, scum probably doesn't shoot him thinking he has something worth claiming page 1. Totally unprovoked it just doesn't track. But it's pretty darn hard for me to see the scum motive in most of his play too.

I should also amend my earlier statement
Looking more closely now I see that its Han (and Edumey) who started the "JC's list is bad" argument that I gave Sultan credit for. He just went over the list himself and more of its specific cases.

Sultan making his own list I dont mind as much eitherm, since Chris asked him to make one and Sultan would answer to Chris regardless of his alignment.

Hey Chris, what was it again that made you kinda doubt your Sheep unvote right after making it in response to the claim when later giving me a pretty good explanation of what to make of the initial post vs. the claim (which btw I kindly asked you all to and only like three of you did!)?

htaeD posted...

Sultan making his own list I dont mind as much eitherm, since Chris asked him to make one and Sultan would answer to Chris regardless of his alignment.

Oh I did not mind it a single bit. I was just reading over it and thought "what the hell was that" lol. If it sounded like me saying I did recall Sultan blowing my mind was about to lead to an actual point then I must disappoint.

I also dont think JC making a list is in itself a problem.
But I do think its odd for him to say he loves lists when, as far as I can tell in the last couple of games, he hasn't actually posted lists when he comes back to catch up on stuff.

Also the more JC talks

I did an ISO of him and am currently very unimpressed on how he jumped on me for not having much substance when all he did was ask Sheep random questions for the first half of this topic.

The more he is simplifying his own argument against me. Now he is just focusing on this topic as if I didnt post in topic 1 at all. Plus I didnt jump on him for not having much substance.
I questioned him because he jumped on me with no substance at all! (Plus like I say: hypocrisy will never stop me from pointing at other players)

htaeD posted...

Alright thats fair. You did also question EDumey a little.
Though in general I find softdefense posts to be more worthy of follow-up than suspecting posts.

I just want it on the record that I didn't show up out of the blue to defend Sheep unprompted!

Yes yes its on the record

Dumey's response when Chris asks why he's not voting anyone and who he wants to kill:

EDumey posted...

Sheep was my number 1 for the first part of the day, but something about the response to Sheep's claim and (from my perspective) disregarding of Sheep's posts earlier in the day makes me think it's more likely that Sheep is town now.
I want to see Crescent more. I really liked Crescent early on, but I feel like her aggression misfired after Sheep's claim and I want to see where she goes from here.
Ctes had a negative point from earlier and the way he reacted to Wallmaster.
Death I think in the previous game played more of a "voice of reason" but as JC pointed out, Death has only really pinged people for questions so far, so Death has not impressed me yet.
MZero we need more of.

I tend not to vote until I've actually built my own argument on someone, and I'm still definitely in an information gathering mode.
I'd be curious if anyone else agrees with me that Crescent's reaction to Sheep's claim felt too aggressive, or just as aggressive as they'd expect? Crescent claimed multiple times that Sheep is "talking at people more than to people." It feels like Crescent is placing a higher burden to scum hunt on Sheep than anyone else in the game.

is in contrast to what he said when he voted Sheep earlier, which I quoted on the last page

I think I'm okay with taking a more aggressive line this game and actually pressuring for claims, as opposed to the last two games where we had very low commitment until very end of day.

I mean, he wants to see more from Crescent and myself, ctes has negative points, death hasn't impressed... but no vote. No pressure for claims. What happened to the fire?

I wish I noticed this when Dumey was still around, whoops

Dumey's first post on Sheep

EDumey posted...

If I am to add an actual non-shit post opinion, I will say that the only person I do have an odd feeling about is indeed Sheep! Sorry Sheep, betraying the only one that tied to buddy up so far is mean spirited. But the combination of Sheep's first post making a special player appeal to BCT, calling me a buddy, and then offering a same-time claim was three quick "hmmm..."s for me. I'm not really sure I see the purpose of a same-time claim early D1 unless you think there's some kind of contradiction to be caught?

Someone extremely handsome calls this noncommittal, to which he responds:

EDumey posted...

I feel like I could levy this exact same criticism at you here though. You caught up with start of day and my post is the only one you make any sort of real comment on? Could definitely be seen as "I guess I have to comment on SOMETHING" energy.

But rather than engage in a "no u" spat, do you think my take on Sheep is wrong? I would define odd here as "points toward scum side of the scale, but not enough evidence to make a firm decision." and I listed three early interactions that moved Sheep on that scale.

"points toward scum side of the scale, but not enough evidence to make a firm decision" sticks out here. Still not a very firm read, but the next time he mentions Sheep is when he votes him. There's never a whole lot of conviction behind the Sheep read from what I can see, but he was willing to pressure him which I think was a fine play, but it is suspicious that he's taking a more passive approach when the wagon hasn't been started yet, whereas the Sheep wagon was already rolling.

EDumey posted...

I think I did say this when I unvoted, but I think if scum Sheep had a manufactured scum claim that he was trying to jump on my soft claim with, it would be something that lends him an advantage if he's caught doing something. So if he has a role that visits people, and is afraid of a tracker/watcher, then he might claim something with movement associated with it. Maybe he claims a Psychic so that no one will visit him. Maybe following Ulti's suggestion of something crazy like Paranoid Gun Owner, though I don't know if that's a banned role in B8 or not. Or maybe even just claims to be a Miller but didn't want to claim it outright, and was hoping I would same-time claim with him if he thought I was trying to claim Miller. Though I think we would have outright killed him if he claimed Miller there.

I think this is a weak meta kind of point to be honest. Like, I get it, but he could also just as well be ninja or something that doesn't move so vanilla makes the most sense. It's still weird that he brings up the same time, yes, but that's weird regardless of alignment at this point. Least weird explanation for that would still that he had other plans at the time.

htaeD posted...

I also dont think JC making a list is in itself a problem.
But I do think its odd for him to say he loves lists when, as far as I can tell in the last couple of games, he hasn't actually posted lists when he comes back to catch up on stuff.

I haven't checked, but I feel like he does this every game.

the list also felt very on brand to me, so I think there's some truth to that

If it is. Then it must not be an early game thing

Now that you might be right about.

I have gleaned surprisingly little from what I missed overnight beyond kinda liking MZero's posts on Dumey, and finding pretty much all of Wall's posts worthwhile. I also felt that Sultan seemed better on initial read but skimming back over I can't tell what exactly gave me that thought, so I'm gonna keep it on the back burner for a while.

To bring things full circle a little, MZero, thoughts on Death?

I also take mild offence to Ulti saying my scum style is being magically right about everything, because that's also my Town style. I'm just (understandably) more confident in my reads when scum.

Now, this far into the game I've essentially not discussed two players in particular. I'm gonna do an ISO of them both (Han and Lea) a little later, but I'm really struggling to read either. This isn't necessarily uncommon for me with Han, at least (and he's had a quiet game), but it's kinda odd that Lea is not screaming Town to me just yet? I liked the tone of some of her posts a little while after unvoting me, but I've felt much more strongly about most other players, which is concerning considering how much of a presence she is.

I like p323-324 from MZero. Also agree with p325 from ctes. Im considering moving my vote to Dumey. Sheep is still very much on my suspect list (Im the only one who hasnt moved my vote for a reason) but these last few posts re: Dumey do have me raising an eyebrow his direction.

1) Crescents aggression misfired after Sheeps claim/Crescents reaction felt too aggressive and It feels like Crescent is placing a higher burden to scum hunt on Sheep than anyone else in the game.

2) Ctes had a negative point from earlier and the way he reacted to Wallmaster.

Dumey why are you casting aggressive gameplay in a negative light after starting the game off saying youre fine with aggressively pressing for claims? I have zero problem with how ctes, or anyone, reacted to me about Ulti calling for a scan on me. Im pretty sure ctes dropped it after a single post, too. Granted there wasnt a reason for him to press anymore after I expressed being happily on board with me
being scanned n1, but how ctes reacted doesnt mean anything about his alignment imo and its a bit odd to hold it against him.

this paired with the reaction to crescent, yeah I see it as anti town behavior. And I tend to agree with crescent that sheeps initial reaction to feet being held to the fire didnt sit quite right.

I tend not to vote until I've actually built my own argument on someone, and I'm still definitely in an information gathering mode. - Dumey, 2023

Sheep was my number 1 for the first part of the day, but something about the response to Sheep's claim and (from my perspective) disregarding of Sheep's posts earlier in the day makes me think it's more likely that Sheep is town now. - Also Dumey, 2023

Dumey, explain this. I already know your stated reasons for suspecting sheep, your first post on sheep was just quoted by MZero. How did the response to sheep claiming move you off your convictions so easily? Especially since youre so reluctant to vote until youve built an argument you find compelling?

Then to top it all off theres this whole exchange

sheep: Im vanilla
Dumey: wow. ok Ive heard enough ++unvote

Sheep007 posted...

To bring things full circle a little, MZero, thoughts on Death?

historically terrible at reading death but he seems involved and asking questions so I feel pretty good about him so far. Nothing pinging the scumdar at least

Okay MZero agrees with me making him obviously town cool

I would like to second Wall asking for elaboration from Dumey on what about the response to my claim stood out.

And also, to kinda address the concerns from Crescent and Wall, my limp reaction to being voted is mostly because I am not up for being obtuse and stubborn this game, especially on a point where I very well understand where others are coming from. Frankly, I will likely not have the energy for it until I find something worth being obtuse over.

I will also say that I kinda like Wall leaving their vote to stew? It doesn't feel whatsoever like lazily leaving their vote on me - they keep bringing it up to remind everyone that I exist, and I think that's very pro-town behaviour, both for creating pressure and because Scum could just safely slink off me at this point.

Hmm.

Ulti, how are you feeling about Lea so far this game?

Dumey is Townish for mostly the same reasons Sheep is.

To clarify on JC: it's about the psychology of making their list, taken partly from my own experiences with myself. I usually provide a list at the end of each day 1 (plum tried to call this a Scumtell last game when I did not). And when I make lists as informed Scum, I have to lie about everyone on the list.

As Town, I have honest reads and no reads. They just come out as is. As Scum, it's forced - have to put together a reason why I am pretending to see someone as Scum. Why a Scummate could be Scummy, but I'm unsure. Why a Town person is Town (easiest because it's true). And Scum do over-explain: it is more likely for Scum to provide reasoning on every nitpick because they don't want to be called out for being vague. It's safer for them.

That's what JC's list reads as. Not "fluff", but forced content.

Also, Ulti hopping on JC with me feels bussy. In particular of worry about Ulti here is that he has said the following:

"Wall if it's day 2"
"If Wall wasn't around, I'd circle BCT"

Holy low hanging fruit, Batman

Just Under 12.5 Hours Remaining Votals:
[3] death - JC, Lea, Chris
[1] Sheep - (Chris), (Han), (Lea), (EDumey), Wallmasterz
[1] JC - Han, (Ulti)
[1] EDumey - (Ulti), Ulti
[0] Ulti - (Chris)
[0] Ctes - (Sultan)
[0] Wall - (BCT)
[0] Han - (BCT)

Did I miss reading a page about Death because I don't remember him getting votes.

htaeD posted...

This is a strange thing coming from someone who seemed to not like JCs opinion on me.

Would be the low priority to be honest. I don't have a read on you either way. And JC lack of reasoning is what I didnt like. Don't be putting words in my mouth now death

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Also, Ulti hopping on JC with me feels bussy. In particular of worry about Ulti here is that he has said the following:

"Wall if it's day 2"
"If Wall wasn't around, I'd circle BCT"

Holy low hanging fruit, Batman

yeah, I have been a little more preoccupied with current thoughts on Dumey atm but I still am weary of ulti this game. Im not bothered by him suspecting me in good faith (if thats what it is) but I am bothered by him never moving his vote off Dumey when he supposedly thought Sheep was scum and momentum was building. I dont even think ulti ever actually believed sheep was scum at this point. Possibly because Ulti is scum, and sheep isnt. I think scum ultis early game strategy involved making a soul read (not making fun of soul reads just saying its hypothetically a fake soul read) with his first post and then coasting as far as possible without taking any real stands to ruffle most veteran players feathers, especially after last game where he succeeded with minimal involvement. And he apparently does this sort of thing enough to know its not immediately raising suspicions.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Did I miss reading a page about Death because I don't remember him getting votes.

Lea and Chris are just being pranksters
JC mentioned his reasons on page2/3? I think.

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

Would be the low priority to be honest. I don't have a read on you either way. And JC lack of reasoning is what I didnt like. Don't be putting words in my mouth now death

Put more of your own words on the plate then!
<.<

htaeD posted...

Lea and Chris are just being pranksters
JC mentioned his reasons on page2/3? I think.

Good prank

wallmasterz posted...

yeah, I have been a little more preoccupied with current thoughts on Dumey atm but I still am weary of ulti this game.

Here's a question: why do you think Scum would say "hey I thought about claiming post 1 but I decided not to"?

htaeD posted...

Put more of your own words on the plate then!
<.<

I guess that is fair. I didn't explain it other I guess I'd be okay with this one.

wallmasterz posted...

I dont even think ulti ever actually believed sheep was scum at this point. Possibly because Ulti is scum, and sheep isnt.

Is this what you actively think, Wall, or is just an option that you're considering in your head?

HanOfTheNekos posted...

That's what JC's list reads as. Not "fluff", but forced content.

This is kind of what I was trying to say. This makes me feel a bit better of Han is also saying it.

What parts of it feel forced to you?

This is not a leading question. It's trying to understand.

That question if for both Sultan and Han btw (but I guess anyone can answer if something in it felt forced to them).

ctesjbuvf posted...

What parts of it feel forced to you?

This is not a leading question. It's trying to understand.

Like i said before it's alot of words from saying very little I don't think it would look as bad if he would have just left it to just a few reads he actually had.

And mostly if he would have layed out his reasoning on voting death right then. Death wouldn't have been who I thought would have been the person he was voting for based on the content of said list.

Again looks like a hey I'm town I'm reading post beacuse of it