Board 8 > Elden Ring Discussion Zone 2

(+) Yeah! (+)

Xiahou Shake posted...

I definitely agree that the overall boss design has changed a ton since DeS but mixing in stuff like roll catchers, combos, grabs and all the other unique stuff we see in this game makes bosses far more interesting to me personally. It's fun never knowing exactly what a new boss is going to bust out. It's never come close to feeling "unfair" to me personally when you get so much of your own nonsense to throw out - player characters have never been more powerful in this series so it makes perfect sense for bosses to answer in kind.

Oh I agree, I just think we've moved past the point of 1v1ing a dude in a room being the default type of boss. They just can't make a game full of perfect fights like Artorias. I'm still probably only halfway through the game and fought probably less than half the bosses themselves but this is the point I've realized I am expected to be trying to break bosses or using summons more often than not.

it's a break or be broken kinda world

and my mimic and i plan on doing the breaking

The ashes are such a major mechanic with there being so many of them, I definitely think the designers expect you to be using them all the time when you can.

Lattena is my sidekick all the time

I literally never crafted but I would still say get every cookbook for emergencies.

You already bought the lantern which is the most critical, no doubt.

I was disappointed to find that gear altering is almost exclusively to take capes OFF of stuff that already has them. Why would I ever REMOVE a cape??

MoogleKupo141 posted...

Any cookbook or note, and I think a lot of the equipment, you find at a merchant is only going to be available from that merchant. You have to buy them if you want them.

Okay, that's kind of what I figured with the cookbooks and notes. I'm low enough level where buying those items is a significant chunk of a level and I've erred on the side of leveling up.

For the weapons/armor, I just assum you find better things looting.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Tldr: I think we have passed a certain threshold for "fair" fights and if we go back then the entrenched players are going to find the game too easy. People were talking about how the game is either too easy or too hard and that sweet spot is probably gone.

This is a thoughtful post, and pretty spot on IMO. I was feeling the same way with how the series has slowly evolved - I've never tried DeS, but the original Dark Souls was much slower than DS3, to the point where I think the biggest issue is that FromSoft feels an obligation to match the last game's "hardest boss" with an even crazier one to make it a memorable experience for the player. It comes from a good intention.

In a way, every 'superboss' in the series (DLC bosses from Souls/BB, final boss from Sekiro) is an attempt to one-up the previous one, and with the design philosophy of Elden Ring where they give you way more tools, they had to make it extra crazy here to compensate. I understand the impulse, but unfortunately the result is not fun.

For me, I think there's two particular types of fights that really irk me - one is a lazy gank fight where they put together enemies that weren't designed to be fought together (which the endgame of Elden Ring has plenty of, but which can largely be trivialized with Mimic Tear), and the other which is a fight that is not suited for the game's mechanics. Friede in DS3 is a good example of the latter for me, where the last phase is just a tiny bit too fast for a game like Souls, and would have been right at home in BB. Compare that to the final boss of Sekiro, which is a great fight because it tests to the absolute limits the system that the game has put together, and is therefore supremely well-suited for it, and fair in its insanity.

Similarly to Friede, the optional superboss here would have been right at home in Sekiro, but the sheer intensity and reaction speed required don't match the Souls frame Elden Ring has adopted. If I have to start dodging and preparing before the telegraph/tell even begins, there's a problem for me. And yes, I realize a lot of that is just adjusting your strategy, summoning, coping with aggro and trying to stack stagger, but in so doing, it's turning the fight into a broader RNG, instead of a hyper-precise dance like the best FromSoft fights have been (Fume Knight, Gael, etc.).

Xiahou Shake posted...

Bosses feel pretty good to me if not a smidge easy overall (with a few exceptions) just due to both having so much experience with these games overall and there being so many different ways to crack this game wide open now.

Out of curiosity, have you fully beaten the game? I felt the same way for most of the game, and then hit a wall in the last 10% or so, which has ramped the difficulty to a point where most fights without summoning are a huge chore.

Theres some good stuff to craft if you can get the right books. Having instant access to any element of bolt/arrow is nice and crafting the status effect healing items is super useful

and theres like thirty other recipes Ive never touched

Solfadore posted...

Out of curiosity, have you fully beaten the game? I felt the same way for most of the game, and then hit a wall in the last 10% or so, which has ramped the difficulty to a point where most fights without summoning are a huge chore.

In fairness, I've not! I'm cleaning up the last bits of the Altus Plateau now and am unsure how much of the game I have left after this. I'll see if I can remember to offer thoughts after Insee what's left. That said, on summoning, I definitely feel like Spirit Ashes are supposed to be considered part of your kit and are part of the design for at least certain bosses, duos especially. If you're not using them in those cases (or even in general) I'd argue you're going out of your way to handicap yourself.

Seanchan posted...

Okay, that's kind of what I figured with the cookbooks and notes. I'm low enough level where buying those items is a significant chunk of a level and I've erred on the side of leveling up.

For the weapons/armor, I just assum you find better things looting.

I think mostly besides the Church of Elleh merchant, the notes I've found are like hints on certain ways to defeat specific enemies, so nothing especially useful (though I'm not super far into the game). Those first two notes though tell you where to get the Wondrous Physic flask, and for sorcerers, tell you where to find a person to teach you more, so they're pretty useful in the early game.

Of course, at this point guides exist to look those things up, so you could just pass on notes until or unless you have runes to burn.

Oh yeah I need to note this is all late game stuff I'm annoyed with. Just specifically the last 4 of 5 boss fights I've done have not been fun for the exact same reasons.

I think crafting pots is pretty underrated, even as a mage I keep a supply of firebombs to have an idiot ranged attack that doesn't use FP, also I don't have any other access to fire which stuns certain enemy types. Some people have success with the status inducing throwables but I have not.

Also you eventually get the ability to craft consumable weapon buffs which are very good if you are using a type of weapon that can be enchanted.

If anyone needs a late game easy no risk soul farm I just saw this

https://youtu.be/FmHf0_DI80Q

Solfadore posted...

dance like the best FromSoft fights have been

Agreed 100%. I'm maybe only 60% through elden ring but there have been multiple times where i feel like the bosses are either a cakewalk or total bs, without much feeling of gradual improvement against what was previously a wall.

Browsing boss cutscenes and it looks like there's a two headed dragon I missed somewhere who gets one??

it seems to be very hidden

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Dragonlord+Placidusax

Fwiw, the best fight thus far for me is reliably the Crucible Knights (1v1, that is). They're among the only bosses that give me that true FromSoft intense dance feeling where you're dodging through patterns, stealing hits here and there, and seizing opportunities to heal when they present themselves.

Actually, a lot of the Evergaol fights tend to be pretty fun, except maybe the one on the Liurnia plateau.

Shaded Castle fight in the Altus region also gave me strong classic Souls vibes, and was really enjoyable.

Solfadore posted...

Fwiw, the best fight thus far for me is reliably the Crucible Knights (1v1, that is). They're among the only bosses that give me that true FromSoft intense dance feeling where you're dodging through patterns, stealing hits here and there, and seizing opportunities to heal when they present themselves.

Actually, a lot of the Evergaol fights tend to be pretty fun, except maybe the one on the Liurnia plateau.

Shaded Castle fight in the Altus region also gave me strong classic Souls vibes, and was really enjoyable.

I feel similar about the Evergaols, and the fact these are among the few bosses which prevent summoning adds to it. It feels very intentional to shove the most classically Souls bosses into these arenas.

Huh. Went back to Nokron to fight the second space moose that I missed. Read that he was supposed to change forms or something after taking some damage but me and my mimic did over half his health before he disappeared. Never reappeared, after a minute his health bar suddenly depleted and I won.

That was a bummer.

As trolly 90% of the messages are I always appreciate a good snake message after a long ladder.

CassandraCain posted...

Huh. Went back to Nokron to fight the second space moose that I missed. Read that he was supposed to change forms or something after taking some damage but me and my mimic did over half his health before he disappeared. Never reappeared, after a minute his health bar suddenly depleted and I won.

That was a bummer.

The main gimmick with that fight that I could notice is that it has a Vicar Amelia-style heal if you leave it alone for too long. And just like Amelia, you're supposed to rush it and counter the heal through equivalent damage, which isn't too much trouble to do by the time you can actually even reach Nokron. Other than that one thing, I haven't seen any transformation either - it was the same ol' moose with the same ol' pattern, except with a heal. So if you beat the original one, I wouldn't feel too bad about it - you didn't miss much.

CasanovaZelos posted...

I feel similar about the Evergaols, and the fact these are among the few bosses which prevent summoning adds to it. It feels very intentional to shove the most classically Souls bosses into these arenas.

Yeah that's true.

All of shaded castle was honestly amazing. I wish that some of the enemies there didn't hit quite as hard as they do, but that's just a general complaint about the game because I'm bad. They had to give us a reason to use so many flasks, after all!

Finally went and did Stormveil. Beat Margit first try, but Godrick took quite a few attempts, which is not what I expected. I also feel like I missed a ton of stuff in there.

Holy shit I did it. Finally beat Malenia, after two days of trying. No idea what finally allowed the winning run to succeed, other than pure luck with the staggers. What an insane fight, and not in a good way.

Been messing around with respecing and I'm absolutely convinced that Strength is the losing Stat in this game, at least as far as a pure single stat build goes.

Going all in on strength with an enormous weapon is just blatantly worse than the alternatives.

this is a totally in researched thought, but it feels like going in hard on either dex or strength is the wrong move because you can just go in hard on faith or int and get a weapon that scales with one of those, + then you get the benefit of being able to cast better spells

Radahn spoilers. ZeroLenny is still a lunatic.

https://twitter.com/ZeroLennyYT/status/1501316970364514307

I keep trying to see if i can respec to use the 60 Int spells but its unfortunately not feasible :(

MoogleKupo141 posted...

this is a totally in researched thought, but it feels like going in hard on either dex or strength is the wrong move because you can just go in hard on faith or int and get a weapon that scales with one of those, + then you get the benefit of being able to cast better spells

Pure Dex with nothing else at least gives you the option of heavy bleed. Pure strength doesn't really have an equivilant.

It sounds like Arcane does effect bleed but that it's not as impactful as it should be.

MoogleKupo141 posted...

this is a totally in researched thought, but it feels like going in hard on either dex or strength is the wrong move because you can just go in hard on faith or int and get a weapon that scales with one of those, + then you get the benefit of being able to cast better spells

Yeah, the spellsword weapons are nuts

Maaaaaan I just kinda want to play again? Not NG+ like from scratch. I really thought I wouldn't feel that draw. Really wanna do a magic build! I did tons of Int this time but I picked the worst starting class for it and it was only in service of my Int Katanas.

MoogleKupo141 posted...

this is a totally in researched thought, but it feels like going in hard on either dex or strength is the wrong move because you can just go in hard on faith or int and get a weapon that scales with one of those, + then you get the benefit of being able to cast better spells

I think about this, too. My impression (untested) is that weapons naturally scale more with str/dex, and the scaling for int/faith weapons caps out lower

I don't think about it too hard and just keep swinging my brick hammers and greatswords with my strength build

I have heard that dex/arcane is the nuts, though

As a long-time Dex user who is the first to complain whenever I perceive Dex as being nerfed in comparison to strength, I have to agree with Ushi here. Pure Dex is much better suited to the endgame that cumbersome strength weapons would be. I just don't see how the secret optional boss is even doable if you don't have a fast weapon or spells.

Of what I've seen thus far (still have a couple areas to do), only Niall seems to favour strength builds (due to being able to stagger the dual sword add dude he summons).

Yeah, it really sucks only being able to hop in with one swing at a time

I'm not even bothering with the ultra greatswords so far because they're just too slow. Stuff like swords and axes are better for that- the upgrade stone bell bearings are so clutch

What are the good Int weapons that still have a lot of physical damage factored in for magic resistant enemies?

Besides Moonveil. I already know it's one of the bet optiona for that but I'm not gonn use it twice.

MAJOR NEW TECH

YOU CAN PAUSE THE GAME

https://twitter.com/IronPineapple_/status/1501218111235796997

kinda like opening Photo Mode in Demon's Souls remake

Strength being LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE is an increasingly common take I'm hearing and I gotta say I don't see it, lol. Even with just a UGS and your choice of AoWs you can tear shit up all the way to the end of Altus Plateau at least. I guess if this is another last 10% of the game issue then I haven't seen that stuff yet but also... it feels like a pretty small problem then? lol

Like yeah I'm sure Sorcerais mixing between Moonveil and sorceries will have an easier time but at that point you're also opening the door to STR/FTH or fucking Starscourge builds and those seem more than capable of wrecking face as well - this game feels like "choose your own broken" but I've also seen a lot of self loathing for chosen builds going around. (Not in this topic but out in the DISCOURSE.)

In past games the strat for damage was to pick a physical stat to scale (STR/DEX) and then use your casting stat to apply weapon buffs on it to double-dip on damage. I don't know if that's still the case, it definitely seems less convenient in an open world and I haven't found any particularly great buffs yet.

All but one weapon I used wouldn't even allow me to apply anything to my weapon.

Including the weapon that was 100% pure strength scaling.

Seems like you can only use coatings on the most basic of weapons

Yeah, unique weapons are almost always like that, but previously normal weapons were competitive with them. I think unique weapons also seem to be much better this time around.

I think there's definitely a facet of "grass is greener on the other side" at play, but given how many respecs the game allows you to have, I think you can have plenty of chances to try other things. Hell, you could respec entirely into something else for just one boss fight and then go back, if you so desired.

Coating works on the curved gs with bleed, whatever its name was!

They don't work if you have a non physical weapon art applied, I think.

Speaking of arts, the frost stomp came in so clutch for me against the gargoyles. I thought it was a really fun fight, other than the poison cloud being way too large. I felt myself learning the movesets in a way that hasn't happened for a lot of other boss fights.

I have just discovered the frost stomp and was coming in here to go "hey what the fuck why is this skill so fucking good"

My dumbass self 70 hours in going like "oh weapon arts are strong huh"

Im 60 hours in and just realized you can equip great runes. I have like 40 rune arcs tho, so I think Ill be good for the endgame.

My plan to keep traveling north tonight didn't go quite as far as I planned. I found a blacksmith. I ran past the Manor that was shooting crystal carpet bombs out of the sky at me. I went into some mine with a bunch of poison crazies. I killed some more of those singing vampires. I faced some kind of magma lizard boss and beat it first try! With a lot of help from an NPC and a summon, but still, first try! Found myself on the Altus Plateau. Got some perfume bottles. Found the mage's cave and that's where I stopped for the night.

I'm level 47ish at this point and...I think it's finally starting to come to me a little? I certainly feel more hardy and survivable now than I did 10-15 levels ago. Of course, then I see "don't go strength" and here I am at 25 Vigor, Endurance, and Strength, 16 Dex, and everything else 10 or below.

This game is definitely capturing some of that same BotW magic of "what will I see tonight", as I pick a direction and run off to explore.

I'm starting to get really burnt out in the late game. This might be a one-n-done for me.

Bloodflame Blade on a weapon that already has bleed is a pretty effective buff in my experience. I pop that, then Flame, Grant Me Strength, then Golden Vow before boss fights.

GV and FGMS stack multiplicatively from what I understand. Can't cast Bloodflame on the winged scythe though.

Seanchan posted...

Of course, then I see "don't go strength" and here I am at 25 Vigor, Endurance, and Strength, 16 Dex, and everything else 10 or below.

You'll get plenty of levels before you get to the end of the game. 25 str isn't a liability at all, and you're likely to find weapons to use with requirements above that! It's probably good to pick one or two stats that you avoid entirely, but you're not doing that so no worries.

Getting int or fth up to the teens so that you can use some utility spells, such as buffs or debuffs, or ranged aoe to keep distance, can really expand your fighting options.

There is an item hidden in a fort in caelid that boosts all your melee stats, too. It feels pretty nice, especially at lower levels.

Well I started going through the Altus plateau, but have now become sidetracked by climbing up this volcano/mountain thing. And my most hated enemy, the weird machines with scythes for arms, returned!!

The Mana Sword posted...

Finally went and did Stormveil. Beat Margit first try, but Godrick took quite a few attempts, which is not what I expected. I also feel like I missed a ton of stuff in there.

I remember beating Margit right away too and then went on to lose like four times to some knight in a room where you had to grab a key like 10 minutes later. It be like that sometimes.