Poll of the Day > Do you ever hate characters for being too perfect?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Especially when they have a supposed flaw that makes them more perfect. Alita is a good example. The entire Xenoblade board slammed my ass a few days ago for thinking Dunban was annoying, so I wonder if anyone else does this.

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You mean for being a Mary Sue/Gary Stu?
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EclairReturns posted...

You mean for being a Mary Sue/Gary Stu?

But that implies that the creators want to be that perfect themselves and thats why they made the character. For me, the very existence of such a character pisses me off, and it just makes them feel fake and kind of boring to me.

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Hate, no. Find boring, sure.

That said, Dunban's not an example of this. Like, at all. Not unless you didn't get past the game's opening sequence.

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adjl posted...

That said, Dunban's not an example of this. Like, at all. Not unless you didn't get past the game's opening sequence.

I beat the game. And idk, something about him rubs me the wrong way. Hes just so heroic that it feels fake. Even if we actually lived on Bionis and Xenoblade was real, no person like that could exist if they werent putting on an act.

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Naruto_fan_42 posted...

But that implies that the creators want to be that perfect themselves and thats why they made the character.

I do not think Sue/Stu's need to be self-inserts.

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Domino from deadpool 2. She was perfect. She knew it. It was great.

Superman/goku- what do you know the death was temporary and he learns he had the power of mcguffin to beat the bad guy all along.

Cloud Strife- yes the ultimate good guy with even a recovery arc shoehorned in that makes wow he had disassociative identity disorder that once found out it got cured faster than an 80s montage

Or back to good any Neil Patrick Harris character that is the penultimate ladies man. Real life makes you life at this

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Naruto_fan_42 posted...

I beat the game. And idk, something about him rubs me the wrong way. Hes just so heroic that it feels fake

No more so than you can say that about most JRPG characters (which isn't necessarily to say that he's a particularly deep or complex character, just that JRPG characters often don't have all that much depth beyond "I'm a hero!"), including most of the rest of Xenoblade's cast of protagonists.

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Depends on the character, depends on the context. Also depends on the intentions of the writer.

A writer who writes a perfect character, who the audience is clearly supposed to love as much as the writer does, and where the writer doubles down and makes them even more annoyingly perfect if/when the audience complains about them (and especially at the expense of other characters the audience likes), then sure, that's annoying.

But there are ways to do "perfect" characters well, either as a straight example or as a deliberate subversion meant to annoy the audience (in other words, the character is actually an antagonist and not the intended protagonist). If the point is to irritate, and there's a pay-off for that irritation (ie, the character is later brought down or humbled), then it can make a very satisfying story.
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playing zestiria here and sorey is so much of a jesus metaphor it's kind of obnoxious

he just strides into danger smiling and everything just works out

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Hate? No.

But being too perfect essentially makes a character boring for most people.

And yeah, "flaws" that aren't actually flaws as the character is never restricted or punished in a meaningful way for it, or sometimes, even benefits from their "flaw", are poor cop outs to real character flaws.

Generally the only exception is when a character's perfection is played for laughs, it rarely ever works for real drama.
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agesboy posted...

playing zestiria here and sorey is so much of a jesus metaphor it's kind of obnoxious

he just strides into danger smiling and everything just works out

Dont play the original deus ex or xenosaga: the search for robo jesus

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EclairReturns posted...

You mean for being a Mary Sue/Gary Stu?

Beat me to it.

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adjl posted...

No more so than you can say that about most JRPG characters (which isn't necessarily to say that he's a particularly deep or complex character, just that JRPG characters often don't have all that much depth beyond "I'm a hero!"), including most of the rest of Xenoblade's cast of protagonists.

To me, they all felt human except for Dunban. Reyn is actually one of my favorite game heroes, so it's not like I'm incapable of liking JRPG heroes, it's just that Dunban just seemed pretentious. Unless the idea is to have it seem like he is putting on an act, it's just so unbelievable to me. Shulk was also really JRPG, but he had the whole being possessed by Zanza thing and the Monado to complicate it. Everyone else had flaws. Reyn was reckless, Seven was naive, Melia was insecure, Riki was oblivious, Sharla was overprotective. I'm not dissing them, I'm just saying that they had things wrong with them like actual humans would.

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Spoilers for pretty much all of Xenoblade 1:

Dunban was pretty much the retired hero trope played straight. He saved everyone back in the day, but got injured, and now takes a back seat to Shulk while advising him. His most notable flaw would be his compulsion to save everyone despite being in no shape to do so, which was thrown back in his face when Shulk took over during the attack on Colony 9 because he was too weak, and then again when the person he wanted most to protect got killed. A lot of his wrestling with that failure happened off-screen between Colony 9 and when he joins the party later, but he still ends up feeling pretty purposeless, which we see during the scene with Riki on the beach after Sword Valley (which is when Riki cements himself as being the real father figure of the group despite Dunban seeming to fill that role up until then). Most of his development boils down to figuring out who he needs to be now that he's not the hero anymore, especially when Fiora turns out to be alive, but Shulk has already taken over Dunban's job of protecting her (to say nothing of the fact that she's now a nigh-invincible cyborg killing machine who doesn't need much protection).

He's not the most complex character, certainly, but he's also not implausibly perfect. Most of his role in the story consists of him not being good enough to be the hero anymore and just trying his best to be helpful despite that, which is very much not perfection. As far as minor JRPG characters go, I'd say that's enough depth.

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Yeah. I thought Superman was lame for so long because he just constantly kept making up new powers, it felt like. But then I saw that two-parter on the Justice League cartoon where he got sent into the future and lost his abilities because the sun was red and had to struggle to survive.

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Patrick from Schitt's Creek was a little too polite and understanding, like, all the time. Even when he was mad, he was too "perfect".

I didn't hate him, though. Just thought he was a weak character

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Raddest_Chad posted...

Yeah. I thought Superman was lame for so long because he just constantly kept making up new powers, it felt like. But then I saw that two-parter on the Justice League cartoon where he got sent into the future and lost his abilities because the sun was red and had to struggle to survive.

So only the time Superman shines as a character is when he doesn't have his powers than. And he didn't even really struggle. There wasn't a period where he was really shocked because of his previous reliance on of his powers, and struggled cope in a strange, dangerous, world without them. After understanding his situation, he quickly went literal boy scout, and put together survival equipment. Nor was he ever panicked at the idea of having to face dangers as a mere mortal. He handled every situation calm and collected. The one time he lost his cool was when Savage was casually recalling how he murdered the Justice League.

Also, the thing that made that story interesting wasn't really Superman, it was the mystery of where he was, Savage, and his transformation as a person as a result of the guilt of his actions.

There is actually a fairly big flaw in the story, although I forgive it since the overall story was so good. Savage says the reason he didn't use his time machine to correct the future was because he can't send things into the past that already exist there, but in previous episodes he got around this limitation by sending back in time a laptop with information of the future, rather than going back in person. He could have done the same thing again, but instead Superman is the only thing he can send back because he was sent forward in time.
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adjl posted...

Spoilers for pretty much all of Xenoblade 1:

Dunban was pretty much the retired hero trope played straight. He saved everyone back in the day, but got injured, and now takes a back seat to Shulk while advising him. His most notable flaw would be his compulsion to save everyone despite being in no shape to do so, which was thrown back in his face when Shulk took over during the attack on Colony 9 because he was too weak, and then again when the person he wanted most to protect got killed. A lot of his wrestling with that failure happened off-screen between Colony 9 and when he joins the party later, but he still ends up feeling pretty purposeless, which we see during the scene with Riki on the beach after Sword Valley (which is when Riki cements himself as being the real father figure of the group despite Dunban seeming to fill that role up until then). Most of his development boils down to figuring out who he needs to be now that he's not the hero anymore, especially when Fiora turns out to be alive, but Shulk has already taken over Dunban's job of protecting her (to say nothing of the fact that she's now a nigh-invincible cyborg killing machine who doesn't need much protection).

He's not the most complex character, certainly, but he's also not implausibly perfect. Most of his role in the story consists of him not being good enough to be the hero anymore and just trying his best to be helpful despite that, which is very much not perfection. As far as minor JRPG characters go, I'd say that's enough depth.

But he wasn't, he was still trying to take on the role of "hero of all humans." His reputation prevented him from retiring despite his paralyzed arm, so they just made him able to fight and adventure only using one arm. If he really retired he wouldn't do any fighting.

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adjl posted...

Hate, no. Find boring, sure.

This.

I forget if it was a specific system, but I played some dnd with a group once and everyone had to come up with some Character Flaw and you would be rewarded when you acted based on that. Made the game interesting.

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Generally only if we're talking about a Mary Sue/Marty Stu. Some other "perfect" characters can feel a little boring unless they're in the right circumstance. Otherwise it can range from a little boring to somewhat annoying.

ScritchOwl posted...

Superman/goku- what do you know the death was temporary and he learns he had the power of mcguffin to beat the bad guy all along.

There are a few headline villains that somebody other than Goku beats.

As for Superman, YMMV. He's been vastly toned down over the years, but part of his appeal is that he's so OP.

TigerTycoon posted...

So only the time Superman shines as a character is

No, he shines as a character in other circumstances. He was just discussing one example he enjoyed. In general, people tend to enjoy when the status quo is challenged. Superman vs the Elite is another good example

And, honestly, one of the best JLU moments is when we learn that Superman was holding back throughout the entire series when he finally lets loose on Darkseid. #WorldofCardboardSpeech


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Dunban wasn't perfect; he was just a badass.

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Goku is far from perfect. Dude's a fuckin psychopath

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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Depends on the character, depends on the context. Also depends on the intentions of the writer.

A writer who writes a perfect character, who the audience is clearly supposed to love as much as the writer does, and where the writer doubles down and makes them even more annoyingly perfect if/when the audience complains about them (and especially at the expense of other characters the audience likes), then sure, that's annoying.

But there are ways to do "perfect" characters well, either as a straight example or as a deliberate subversion meant to annoy the audience (in other words, the character is actually an antagonist and not the intended protagonist). If the point is to irritate, and there's a pay-off for that irritation (ie, the character is later brought down or humbled), then it can make a very satisfying story.

Is this roman reigns and John cena .

dedbus posted...

Is this roman reigns and John cena.

I was actually thinking about Roman when I wrote that.

He's much better now, though.



agesboy posted...

he just strides into danger smiling and everything just works out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hth78LaJAbg
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Naruto_fan_42 posted...

But he wasn't, he was still trying to take on the role of "hero of all humans."

He tried, but he failed because Shulk was just so much better than him at being the hero, so he ended up giving up on being in the spotlight. The only time he took anything more proactive than a supporting role was when Mumkhar was revealed, and that was a personal vendetta (which Shulk actually kept him from taking too far).

Naruto_fan_42 posted...

His reputation prevented him from retiring despite his paralyzed arm, so they just made him able to fight and adventure only using one arm.

The whole "one-armed swordsman" thing isn't uncommon in Japanese media. The best-known example would probably be Guts, from Berserk (who in turn inspired Artorias in Dark Souls, who is an incredibly badass fight even with only one arm). It's a bit implausible, but it usually works out well enough for the Rule of Cool to cover the necessary suspension of disbelief. In a world where a sentient puffball with physically-impossible wings can beat dragons to death with a stick with a frog tied to it, I don't think being a functional swordsman with only one working arm is that hard to accept.

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No I just hate perfect people.

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It really depends how they are written, even superman you can see times where he just power fantasy's through everything and other times that are more psychological and he has to make tough decisions and becomes relatable in the process

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Depends, but I really wanted to like that anime Prince of Tennis but after a good 5 or so episodes I got honestly tired of the main character always being so damn good and more or less knowing everything. I'm sure he does have flaws, but I got tired of waiting for them.

ScritchOwl posted...

Cloud Strife

I dunno if this really fits. I think he has enough flaws and weaknesses that he can (and does) grow over the course of the games and other media. He's not too perfect at all I think.

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cloud is bland but not perfect, yeah

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To me, there is no such thing as being too perfect. I take personality very seriously, and to me characters have to have good personality to be perfect. I guess how we define perfect could be a factor.

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fishy071 posted...

I guess how we define perfect could be a factor.

To me, the archetypical perfect character is Medaka from Medaka Box, because that's explicitly what her character is parodying/referencing. She's never wrong- even when she is- because the story is written to frame her as right. She has poorly-defined powers that allow her to accomplish pretty much anything, and copy the talents/efforts of others to perform them better. Everyone inexplicably adores her, even people who should hate her. Everyone needs her to solve their problems, even though a lot of those problems only exist because she exists. She insists talent is inferior to effort, whilst being naturally gifted in everything she tries without any effort whatsoever. She's hypocritical but in the context of the story she's never actually wrong, and it's infuriating to everyone around her even as they succumb to it.

This is all on purpose because Medaka Box is a meta criticism of shonen so it isn't as grating as when a lot of these aspects are just played straight, like Kirito or Natsu or whoever.

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adjl posted...

He tried, but he failed because Shulk was just so much better than him at being the hero

I get your point with the one arm thing, but this confuses me. Shulk was this nerdy weapon dev/Monado analyst who has to rise to the challenge and experienced a lot of hardship along the way. Dunban was the old guy who had already seen everything before the game happened, and is co-hero with Shulk even though they play him as support. He was known everywhere as Dunban, hero of Sword Valley, while Shulk was Monado Boy most places. His history of being this untouchable hero cements his role in the party and the overall game as well imo.

Aaantlion posted...

And, honestly, one of the best JLU moments is when we learn that Superman was holding back throughout the entire series when he finally lets loose on Darkseid. #WorldofCardboardSpeech

Holding back thats the most pathetic trope Ive ever seen. Imo the power scaling shouldnt be so jank that people get curbstomped in the first place, especially if theres no story payoff after, but if they do it should be because their opponent was training or they were overconfident or something. If the only reason is because their opponent was holding back the whole time, thats lazy writing and insulting all the characters that were fought before. Imagine being a boxer/tennis pro/Smash player or whatever. You enter a tournament, do fairly well, but in the quarterfinals you get eliminated in a really close match. You continue watching the tournament, and in the next round the guy who seemingly barely beat you totally whoops a dude twice your skill level. Would you not be offended? To me, doing well against someone who was holding back doesnt really count, real ability isnt being tested if youre just getting toyed with and thinking youre winning. I havent read or watched any Superman, but the holding back crap is a huge turn-off for anything I might be interested in.

rant over

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It depends on the context but, in general, I'd say 'yes'. Though I DON'T consider power level to be part of this (though it is often related). So someone who is too powerful to be challenged isn't annoying on their own. Instead what annoys me, and defines my sense of 'perfect', is the character who is always RIGHT and has no actual FLAWS. Especially if the antagonist is clearly just someone the author HATES. Doesn't matter who or the setting, it's just annoying as frick and reeks of terrible writing and favoritism.

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I want to add in here, I think Superman and Batman represent two aspects of the 'perfect character' problem when written poorly.

With Superman a lot of people focus entirely on his external powers. I.E. finding a foe who can go toe-to-toe with him. This results in a problem because of his power level being so high that it means little can actually challenge him. Yet when you look at his best stories they're the ones that don't actually bother with his power level at all. In Red Son the challenge is to his character and showing how even someone as good and kind as Superman can fall into the same traps and pitfalls of 'good intentions' and what-not. That's when Superman is at his best, when his character is being tested, not his might.

Conversely with Batman you have a character who, effectively, could be killed by a random mook with a knife. Sure, he's got devices and stuff to stop that from happening, but he's mortal through and through. He may be strong but he's not about to bench press a bently. However a lot of times writers tend to write his character as perfect and to never be even considered FOR testing. I.E. he's the ideal standard of all heroes, the perfect fighter, could beat everyone given enough planning time, etc. This results in him becoming a sue because, well, not only is he effectively assumed to triumph over every external threat because he's Bat tzu, but his character is assumed to be perfect. That results in an irritating character who is a sue through and through.

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Naruto_fan_42 posted...

I get your point with the one arm thing, but this confuses me. Shulk was this nerdy weapon dev/Monado analyst who has to rise to the challenge and experienced a lot of hardship along the way. Dunban was the old guy who had already seen everything before the game happened, and is co-hero with Shulk even though they play him as support. He was known everywhere as Dunban, hero of Sword Valley, while Shulk was Monado Boy most places. His history of being this untouchable hero cements his role in the party and the overall game as well imo.

dunban is absolutely not a perfect character because he's a veteran that's already racked up accolades over his whole life that shulk massively overshadows in the short amount of time the game takes place

both he and the player know that compared to shulk he's a fake hero who got as far as he did off raw effort that doesn't scratch the power of innate talent; the rest of the world having an inflated opinion of him doesn't diminish from that but instead makes it worse on him when the "chosen one" finally shows up

i don't understand why you think a character being archetyped as a lauded war hero makes them automatically boringly perfect, his flaws are plain to see

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agesboy posted...

dunban is absolutely not a perfect character because he's a veteran that's already racked up accolades over his whole life that shulk massively overshadows in the short amount of time the game takes place

both he and the player know that compared to shulk he's a fake hero who got as far as he did off raw effort that doesn't scratch the power of innate talent; the rest of the world having an inflated opinion of him doesn't diminish from that but instead makes it worse on him when the "chosen one" finally shows up

i don't understand why you think a character being archetyped as a lauded war hero makes them automatically boringly perfect, his flaws are plain to see

No, the fact that hes one of the heroes even though Shulk has the Monado now and he just has a katana and lost the use of his arm means that he isnt a fake hero. Hes so overly heroic that hes kind of unbelievable to me and it annoys me that he has no meaningful character flaws. Thats all.

Also screw outta here with your innate talent. Thats entirely against the point of the game. Did you even play it? Did you miss all the stuff about will to fight and not throwing your life away? Seven mortals literally go and kill god. Say whatever you want about the visions, but you cant deny that Reyn, Sharla, and Riki made it through willpower alone. Reyn and Sharla were defence force mooks and Riki was a dude trying to pay off his debt. But they took up their weapons and fought against an entire army of badasses in mechs and later, literal god anyway.

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Naruto_fan_42 posted...

Hes so overly heroic that hes kind of unbelievable to me and it annoys me that he has no meaningful character flaws. Thats all.

his character flaw is that he fails at things he tries to accomplish regularly, which is a pretty big one. he's permanently crippled himself over trying too hard to be something he's not

Naruto_fan_42 posted...

Also screw outta here with your innate talent. Thats entirely against the point of the game. Did you even play it? Did you miss all the stuff about will to fight and not throwing your life away?

did you miss the part extremely early on in the story where the monado causes severe strain on anyone but shulk when using it, and how shulk has superpowers noone else has

i am specifically talking about the dichotomy between shulk and dunban, not anyone else. not any overarching themes with the story, but dunban's insecurities and insufficiencies he wrestles with throughout the story despite the fact that he really tries. why are you bringing up everyone else?

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agesboy posted...

his character flaw is that he fails at things he tries to accomplish regularly, which is a pretty big one. he's permanently crippled himself over trying too hard to be something he's not

What are you talking about here? Sword Valley? Metal Face? Also, thats a flaw in his situation, not his character.

did you miss the part extremely early on in the story where the monado causes severe strain on anyone but shulk when using it, and how shulk has superpowers noone else has

Thats because Zanza was in him and that Monado can only be truly wielded by Zanza.

i am specifically talking about the dichotomy between shulk and dunban, not anyone else. not any overarching themes with the story, but dunban's insecurities and insufficiencies he wrestles with throughout the story despite the fact that he really tries. why are you bringing up everyone else?

Ok fair. But what Im trying to say is that even though Shulk has more other advantages(which are more often than not caused by above spoilery reasons) Dunban has a more unbelievable character.

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Naruto_fan_42 posted...

I get your point with the one arm thing, but this confuses me. Shulk was this nerdy weapon dev/Monado analyst who has to rise to the challenge and experienced a lot of hardship along the way. Dunban was the old guy who had already seen everything before the game happened, and is co-hero with Shulk even though they play him as support. He was known everywhere as Dunban, hero of Sword Valley, while Shulk was Monado Boy most places. His history of being this untouchable hero cements his role in the party and the overall game as well imo.

He's got a reputation of being a hero based on past accolades and whatnot, but he's very obviously inferior to Shulk in every way because Shulk just happened to be the "chosen one" who could use the Monado properly. Even if he weren't injured, Dunban would have been slaughtered when Colony 9 was attacked because they were so hopelessly outgunned that "guy who can kind of use the only known weapon that can reliably damage mechon" wouldn't have been remotely enough. The only reason the Colony survived the attack is because Shulk magically developed the ability to use the Monado flawlessly the first time he tried. Dunban was too weak to save anyone.

The only reason Dunban was able to become the "hero of Sword Valley" was because he worked his ass off to be strong enough to wield the Monado despite its efforts to kill him, and it still almost did him in. The world lauds him for his accomplishments there, but he knows he barely scraped by and that Shulk has far more heroic potential than he ever will (even if that potential is later explained and Dunban doesn't really need to feel bad in comparison), a difference in power levels that is extremely apparent throughout the story.

Naruto_fan_42 posted...

No, the fact that hes one of the heroes even though Shulk has the Monado now and he just has a katana

Most of the party just has mundane weapons. Reyn's got a weird pointy shield thing, Sharla's got a generic rifle, Riki literally has a sock puppet on a stick (literally.), Seven's got a couple of knives... A katana is nothing unusually mundane, even if his is one of the first anti-mechon weapons available (which is a consequence of new technology being developed, not of Dunban magically being capable of hurting mechon despite not having a special weapon). He's no less plausible a party member or hero than anyone else; Shulk and (to a lesser extent) Melia and Seven are the only ones with any inherent traits that make them more powerful than anyone else in the world.

Naruto_fan_42 posted...

you cant deny that Reyn, Sharla, and Riki made it through willpower alone.

Which is all Dunban's ever had, and the only reason he was able to take up the Monado in the first place and become that war hero everyone loves him as.

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I hate it when they are 1 dimensional

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adjl posted...

He's got a reputation of being a hero based on past accolades and whatnot, but he's very obviously inferior to Shulk in every way because Shulk just happened to be the "chosen one" who could use the Monado properly. Even if he weren't injured, Dunban would have been slaughtered when Colony 9 was attacked because they were so hopelessly outgunned that "guy who can kind of use the only known weapon that can reliably damage mechon" wouldn't have been remotely enough. The only reason the Colony survived the attack is because Shulk magically developed the ability to use the Monado flawlessly the first time he tried. Dunban was too weak to save anyone.

The only reason Dunban was able to become the "hero of Sword Valley" was because he worked his ass off to be strong enough to wield the Monado despite its efforts to kill him, and it still almost did him in. The world lauds him for his accomplishments there, but he knows he barely scraped by and that Shulk has far more heroic potential than he ever will (even if that potential is later explained and Dunban doesn't really need to feel bad in comparison), a difference in power levels that is extremely apparent throughout the story.

Most of the party just has mundane weapons. Reyn's got a weird pointy shield thing, Sharla's got a generic rifle, Riki literally has a sock puppet on a stick (literally.), Seven's got a couple of knives... A katana is nothing unusually mundane, even if his is one of the first anti-mechon weapons available (which is a consequence of new technology being developed, not of Dunban magically being capable of hurting mechon despite not having a special weapon). He's no less plausible a party member or hero than anyone else; Shulk and (to a lesser extent) Melia and Seven are the only ones with any inherent traits that make them more powerful than anyone else in the world.

Which is all Dunban's ever had, and the only reason he was able to take up the Monado in the first place and become that war hero everyone loves him as.

Yeah, but Shulk is a more realistic human despite his OPness. I do admire Dunbans determination as a single trait, but having that and also having him be wise like hes 60 even though hes 30, being courageous, making friends with almost anyone he meets makes him feel fake. You refuse to see the difference between character flaws and situation disadvantages. Theres nothing about him that I actually hate, its just that all of his flaws being situation disadvantage makes him annoyingly perfect as a person to me.

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Naruto_fan_42 posted...

You refuse to see the difference between character flaws and situation disadvantages.

The character flaws are in how he handled the disadvantageous situations. He wants to be the hero, even when doing so is almost impossible (this shows up multiple times in the prologue, main story, and heart-to-hearts) and trying in spite of that is overtly self-destructive, and when he fails because Shulk is just so OP (again, for good reason, but nobody knows that), he ends up feeling insecure about his inadequacies. This scene really highlights it (again, mid-late game spoilers):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otg0CoES8Co

It bothers Dunban that he isn't the one that's saving Fiora, and Riki ends up reassuring him that it's okay to just take a back seat because his "kids" are grown up enough to handle themselves. That notion of not being the hero anymore is something Dunban struggles with the entire game, which is why he tries to lead the party despite not being the obvious main character.

Naruto_fan_42 posted...

having him be wise like hes 60 even though hes 30

By JRPG standards, 30 is pretty ancient. Even with Xenoblade's unusually-old party, though, he's the oldest homs in the group by a large margin, a veteran war hero, and had to grow up faster than usual to effectively become Fiora's adoptive parent after their parents died. It's well within expectations that he'd at least try to be the mature one of the group, and also that the occasional crack in that facade would be picked up on by Riki (the actual mature one) or that he'd periodically lapse into making rash, immature judgements (pretty much any time Mumkhar was involved).

Naruto_fan_42 posted...

being courageous, making friends with almost anyone he meets makes him feel fake.

That's basically every JRPG character ever that isn't specifically characterized to not fit those descriptors (i.e. deliberately portrayed as cowardly or unlikable).

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adjl posted...

The character flaws are in how he handled the disadvantageous situations. He wants to be the hero, even when doing so is almost impossible (this shows up multiple times in the prologue, main story, and heart-to-hearts) and trying in spite of that is overtly self-destructive, and when he fails because Shulk is just so OP (again, for good reason, but nobody knows that), he ends up feeling insecure about his inadequacies. This scene really highlights it (again, mid-late game spoilers):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otg0CoES8Co

It bothers Dunban that he isn't the one that's saving Fiora, and Riki ends up reassuring him that it's okay to just take a back seat because his "kids" are grown up enough to handle themselves. That notion of not being the hero anymore is something Dunban struggles with the entire game, which is why he tries to lead the party despite not being the obvious main character.

But if he wasnt a hero anymore he never would have left the colony. The fact that he even fights with you in the first place is proof enough that its possible. Also, with the exception of his arm(which was more of a story thing than it said anything about him), nothing bad ever befalls him due to these supposed flaws, so they can just be ignored.

By JRPG standards, 30 is pretty ancient. Even with Xenoblade's unusually-old party, though, he's the oldest homs in the group by a large margin, a veteran war hero, and had to grow up faster than usual to effectively become Fiora's adoptive parent after their parents died. It's well within expectations that he'd at least try to be the mature one of the group, and also that the occasional crack in that facade would be picked up on by Riki (the actual mature one) or that he'd periodically lapse into making rash, immature judgements (pretty much any time Mumkhar was involved).

That's basically every JRPG character ever that isn't specifically characterized to not fit those descriptors (i.e. deliberately portrayed as cowardly or unlikable).

By JRPG standards yeah right. All of those traits are found in everyone in the party, but he just takes them to the extreme. I kind of adjust for the JRPG stuff in my head, and in that context everyone else seems believable. If we were actually in that kind of situation, the bravest among us could at least somewhat fill the roles of the other party members. But there could never be a Dunban because despite his doubt his inadequacies never meant anything.

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Dude, I don't think anyone else has the problems with Dunban that you seem to. He's perfectly believable for what he is. This is a weird hill to die on.

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keyblader1985 posted...

Dude, I don't think anyone else has the problems with Dunban that you seem to. He's perfectly believable for what he is. This is a weird hill to die on.

Ill still die on this hill. His flaws werent meaningful enough to matter, so they might as well not exist. Something bad happened to everyone else because of their flaws. Reyn jumped to conclusions and was reckless, so he had a hard time keeping up with the new understandings the party was always coming to. Sharla was obsessed with Gadolt, and that gets her when she found him as a Mechon pilot and it totally devastated her, Seven was too shy to do something they could have done a lot of times, Riki was only there because he was paying off a debt that he most probably could have avoided, and this game just loves torturing Melia. Shulk was kind of a free pass because of the Monado, but he felt like a more compelling character to me because he never did any fighting before this and experienced all this for the first time, while Dunban was a war veteran who had most of his first time reactions off screen.

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You'd half suspect Dunban snuck up and murdered Naruto's family with the disdain this guy has for him.

Pretty funny TC has a Naruto username because the first person that came to mind was Itachi. The author Kishimoto couldn't get off this guy's dick and always had to make him look better than everyone. At the expense of making other people that should be better than him (Sasuke, Nagato etc) look stupid. The only other person he wanked more was Madara except Madara deserved it. And even he got trolled in the end while Itachi remained flawless even in death. I hated that guy and his entire (r word) fandom. They were insufferable and one deserved the other.

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Naruto_fan_42 posted...

But if he wasnt a hero anymore he never would have left the colony.

Sure he would have. He's still a competent fighter, even with his injuries, and between his personal attachment to Shulk (who's all but his son-in-law, with all the paternalistic protective drive that entails), his compulsion to try playing the hero even if it wasn't the best idea, and sharing 100% of Shulk's motivations for setting out in the first place (namely, seeking revenge against the Mechon for killing Fiora), it would be downright implausible if he hadn't joined them in some capacity.

Naruto_fan_42 posted...

His flaws werent meaningful enough to matter, so they might as well not exist.

They almost got him killed twice, on-camera (once in the prologue, then again during the attack on Colony 9), with at least one more instance being revealed through a Heart-to-Heart (he talks about fleeing with Fiora during a mechon attack years prior, but going back into the house to retrieve a keepsake she wanted despite the danger). The argument can also easily be made that he's taking a similar risk by joining Shulk's adventure despite his injuries, though he doesn't end up suffering any more near-death experiences than the rest of the party for it. He very obviously has a self-destructive hero complex, which has direct, on-camera consequences for him, as well as straining his relationship with Fiora because she doesn't want him to get hurt (though her regrets about being reckless tend to focus more on not wanting Shulk to worry than on Dunban's safety). The cracks in his composure (since he feels compelled to put on the hero act but isn't actually strong enough to maintain it all the time) also have obvious direct consequences. If not for Shulk's intervention, he would have had the murder of a fellow homs on his conscience (stepping away from the question of whether or not it was reasonable for Shulk to intervene and ignoring the wholesale slaughter of Face units in the late game). Less practically, we see his internal struggles in some of his dialogue, particularly with Riki.

Certainly, the whole game isn't about Dunban's personal struggles and flaws, but that's to be expected. As a minor character, he's perfectly believable.

Naruto_fan_42 posted...

while Dunban was a war veteran who had most of his first time reactions off screen.

This doesn't make him any less believable. Back story is still story, and is no less significant a part of character development than stuff that happens on-screen.

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adjl posted...

Sure he would have. He's still a competent fighter, even with his injuries, and between his personal attachment to Shulk (who's all but his son-in-law, with all the paternalistic protective drive that entails), his compulsion to try playing the hero even if it wasn't the best idea, and sharing 100% of Shulk's motivations for setting out in the first place (namely, seeking revenge against the Mechon for killing Fiora), it would be downright implausible if he hadn't joined them in some capacity.

Youre contradicting yourself. What do you think he should have done? You say its impossible for him not to join the heroes and then you say that he cant be a hero.

They almost got him killed twice, on-camera (once in the prologue, then again during the attack on Colony 9), with at least one more instance being revealed through a Heart-to-Heart (he talks about fleeing with Fiora during a mechon attack years prior, but going back into the house to retrieve a keepsake she wanted despite the danger). The argument can also easily be made that he's taking a similar risk by joining Shulk's adventure despite his injuries, though he doesn't end up suffering any more near-death experiences than the rest of the party for it.

The prologue was out of desperation. If he hadnt almost got himself killed Bionis would be swarmed with Mechon. Same thing with the raid, he went and got the Monado even though he wasnt strong enough to use it because he was desperate to defend the colony.

(though her regrets about being reckless tend to focus more on not wanting Shulk to worry than on Dunban's safety) (stepping away from the question of whether or not it was reasonable for Shulk to intervene and ignoring the wholesale slaughter of Face units in the late game).

Youre contradicting yourself again. Why do you make this argument if youre just going to argue back at yourself as me?

Back story is still story, and is no less significant a part of character development than stuff that happens on-screen.

Mumkhar and Gadolt both got sold short because most of their story was backstory or happened off-camera. And when they finally do get some development they die right after. All Mumkhar ever did on-camera was try to murder Shulk and Dunban, but the game hints to a backstory not explored anywhere. Gadolt had that flashback where hes shooting at the Mechon wreckage, and thats about it.

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