Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 264: DNC's House of Mouse

(+) Yeah! (+)

Alternate title: The exception rat proves the rule

---

Good one
---

https://twitter.com/asfleischman/status/1224762869784379394?s=21

---

---

lmao it's a pretty good point.


---

I really wish the US had more party options than 'literally evil' or 'too incompetent to win'.

---

With regard to the whistleblower, I don't see how the Whistleblower Protection Act can trump the Sixth Amendment. Seems like failure to confront the President with his accuser is on its own sufficient grounds to acquit him.

---

So as someone who's never really followed the primary process before--this feels at first glance to me like more of a media circus than an actual screw-up? Like what is the actual, concrete harm that was done as a result of the problems with whatever system they were trying to implement? It seems to me like they attempted to implement a new system to make things easier and failed, but that there were appropriate backup measures in place such that things proceeded as normally but with a slight delay.

I suppose one could claim that the existence of the media circus itself is the harm that was done, but ideally I'm looking for other answers since being bad at optics is not especially high on my list of things to care about.
---

Isnt Matt Stoller the guy whose thing is constantly shitting on Obama even three years into the Trump presidency?

Doesnt really seem like a unity guy...!

---

red sox 777 posted...

With regard to the whistleblower, I don't see how the Whistleblower Protection Act can trump the Sixth Amendment. Seems like failure to confront the President with his accuser is on its own sufficient grounds to acquit him.

The whistleblower is analogous to the guy finding a dead body and calling the cops. If prosecutors dont need him to make their case, the fact that he led to the investigation is irrelevant; the accused murderer doesnt get to question him.

In any case, Rand is surely protected by the Speech and Debate Clause (and I think the Whistleblower Protection Act wouldnt apply to him anyway). That doesnt mean hes not a massive piece of shit, though.

---

Slate's gonna have to update this article:

https://slate.com/technology/2019/10/consequential-computer-code-software-history.html

---

LordoftheMorons posted...

The whistleblower is analogous to the guy finding a dead body and calling the cops. If prosecutors dont need him to make their case, the fact that he led to the investigation is irrelevant; the accused murderer doesnt get to question him.

In any case, Rand is surely protected by the Speech and Debate Clause (and I think the Whistleblower Protection Act wouldnt apply to him anyway). That doesnt mean hes not a massive piece of shit, though.

I need to do some more research into this to respond substantively as to the first part. I might do so later.

As for Rand Paul, I agree he shouldn't be doing this. The correct remedy a judge/juror can use for the prosecution's failure to confront a defendant with his accuser is to dismiss the case or acquit the defendant, not to name the accuser. If he was going to name him, the way to do so would have been in a subpoena commanding him to testify before the Senate.

---

Votes expected to drop in like 50 minutes.

Ooh boy.

---

red sox 777 posted...

With regard to the whistleblower, I don't see how the Whistleblower Protection Act can trump the Sixth Amendment. Seems like failure to confront the President with his accuser is on its own sufficient grounds to acquit him.

The Sixth Amendment applies only to criminal charges. Impeachment isn't a criminal charge.

---

https://twitter.com/super70ssports/status/1224801212077395969?s=21
---

ChichiriMuyo posted...

The Sixth Amendment applies only to criminal charges. Impeachment isn't a criminal charge.

The Constitution doesn't specifically say whether the standard for impeachment is higher or lower than for a regular criminal trial, but I think the Senate would be absolutely justified and within its discretion to hold that all the normal requirements for a criminal trial apply to an impeachment trial. And I think the Senate has more or less done that historically.

---

Jakyl25 posted...

Good one

Coming from you, this is an honor.

---

Thread

https://twitter.com/willwilkinson/status/1224731213711265792?s=21

---

Shameful:

https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1224804758797635589?s=21

---

We now use the machine voting that then prints out a hard copy of the vote you can personally verify and at my surface level understanding that seems like the best solution.

---

LordoftheMorons posted...

Thread

https://twitter.com/willwilkinson/status/1224731213711265792?s=21

Yeah this is what I was trying to get at in a more roundabout way. (mostly because I was not and am not confident that I'm not missing something.)

But it seems to me like the result of this whole thing is just that an accurate and reliable count gets released 12-18 hours later than expected, which doesn't seem to me like it should be a big deal.
---

pyresword posted...

Yeah this is what I was trying to get at in a more roundabout way. (mostly because I was not and am not confident that I'm not missing something.)

But it seems to me like the result of this whole thing is just that an accurate and reliable count gets released 12-18 hours later than expected, which doesn't seem to me like it should be a big deal.

If they said ahead of time it would take this long, I'd be 100% ok with the wait as accuracy is more important than speed. The way they handled this was what made it such a mess.

If this becomes the norm, fine. But they need to be clear about that before voting begins!

---

red sox 777 posted...

With regard to the whistleblower, I don't see how the Whistleblower Protection Act can trump the Sixth Amendment. Seems like failure to confront the President with his accuser is on its own sufficient grounds to acquit him.

Good lord, man. I hope this is a troll post.

The whistleblower isn't an accuser. They saw something and reported on it. Additionally, it's not a he-said-she-said situation. The contents of said whistleblow have been independently verified by many people, including Trump himself.

It's like if someone shot someone on fifth avenue, and one person dials the cops to report a shooting. The cops arrive, question 100 witnesses who say it happened, get the video tapes of 3 stores with closed circuit cameras pointing at the crime, and the murderer confesses, but the specific person who initially phoned in the crime went home after the call.

You don't need that original caller to come to court. You have 100 witnesses, video footage, and a confession.

---

Susan Collins cant possibly be delusional enough to believe this:

https://twitter.com/grace_segers/status/1224803887531679744?s=21

And its unacceptable for him to be seeking foreign assistance at all, careful or not!

---

Trump learned a valuable lesson: He can get away with anything

...oh wait he knew that already with the "I could shoot someone on 5th avenue..." comment

---

Senate moderates are basically the parents buying their kid a toy to bribe them into stopping a tantrum

I think hes learned his lesson!

---

LordoftheMorons posted...

Susan Collins cant possibly be delusional enough to believe this:

https://twitter.com/grace_segers/status/1224803887531679744?s=21

And its unacceptable for him to be seeking foreign assistance at all, careful or not!

Susan Collins has it on good authority that after this election, he 100% pinky promises not to seek foreign aid in any of his subsequent elections.

---

LordoftheMorons posted...

Susan Collins cant possibly be delusional enough to believe this:

https://twitter.com/grace_segers/status/1224803887531679744?s=21

And its unacceptable for him to be seeking foreign assistance at all, careful or not!

And some Democrats want to reach out to these people.

We're so fucked.

---

Wasn't here at the end of the last topic to point out at the time but to clarify here the DNC isn't running the Iowa caucus. This debacle is the responsibility of the Iowa Democratic Party. So blaming/insulting the DNC for this is wrong. One imagines they're pissed off too for how this is overshadowing everything else.

---

BIden got absolutely bodied.

---

Good night for Sanders overall I think!

---

Popular vote makes me hard

---

Klobuchar is right behind Biden.

Worst case scenario for Biden really!

If Klobuchar winds up doing well enough to stay in, this is honestly best case scenario possible for Sanders imo.

---

Link?

---

Mayor Pete is deserved an apology.

---

Yeah this is pretty great. Hope we get more delegates than pete in the end but this turn out is wonderful for Iowa. Pete went super hard in iowa

---

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Yeah this is pretty great. Hope we get more delegates than pete in the end but this turn out is wonderful for Iowa. Pete went super hard in iowa

Honestly better than best case scenario like two weeks ago even like two weeks ago! We'll see the final tallies soon, but yeah Iowa is dumb and total delegates doesn't matter all that much.

Bernie getting most votes would be HUGE. Pete worked hard for Iowa so yeah gg Pete too. Can't believe he buried Biden so hard.

Corrik7 posted...

Mayor Pete is deserved an apology.

For a couple of reasons, yeah.

---

Forceful_Dragon posted...

Link?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/election-results/iowa/

---

https://twitter.com/dril/status/891915417899474944?s=21
---

yeah pete did incredibly work on this one. still seems likely that some of the early predictions had the right idea just the wrong candidate: bernie wins popular vote, pete wins delegates.

both come out as winners.
warren comes out looking solid.
biden jobbed.


---

This is the first time I've paid close attention to caucus stuff - you're telling me it's a mini Electoral College?

---

Wanglicious posted...

yeah pete did incredibly work on this one. still seems likely that some of the early predictions had the right idea just the wrong candidate: bernie wins popular vote, pete wins delegates.

both come out as winners.
warren comes out looking solid.
biden jobbed.

Looking forward to NH. If there is another anemic Biden performance...things could get fun.

---

KamikazePotato posted...

This is the first time I've paid close attention to caucus stuff - you're telling me it's a mini Electoral College?

pretty much, yeah.
it's a mini electoral college with added measures of distribution among candidates that makes it more confusing.


---

An excellent and inspiring detail about those results is that Bernie seems to have claimed a plurality of voters 18-44, and not just the Youth.


---

Also doing the math the vitals seem a healthy tick above 2016 or is my math fuzzy

---

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Also doing the math the vitals seem a healthy tick above 2016 or is my math fuzzy

I can't see where the outstanding votes are from on my phone so I can't tell exactly. I heard it was pretty close to 2016 regardless.

---

Also this is terrifying from the prospect of a brokered convention, which is still what I'm expecting.

It could establish a situation where Bernie (in the lead), Pete, Warren, and a then-collapsed Biden who won a few major states are at the end... With a Bloomberg with enough percentage and money to make a winner.

---

Kinglicious posted...

Also this is terrifying from the prospect of a brokered convention, which is still what I'm expecting.

Bet on Hillary then
---

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

An excellent and inspiring detail about those results is that Bernie seems to have claimed a plurality of voters 18-44, and not just the Youth.

That age range is still mostly those god damn millennials though

---

KamikazePotato posted...

This is the first time I've paid close attention to caucus stuff - you're telling me it's a mini Electoral College?

It's arguably worse! Iowa does some really dumb shit with the caucus.

First off, they're reporting out 3 different results (each of which could have a different winner if things had gone full CHAOS)

A basic overview is:

1. They take a count of where everyone groups up at first. This is the "first alignment" count of voters that is reported.

2. Then the whole viability thing comes into play where any group that fails to reach 15% has to either join one of the viable groups or team up with other non-viable folks to get to 15% (Like say Biden and Klob get 9 and 7 respectively. Neither is viable but if the Klob voters agree to join the Biden group they can get to 16 and become viable even though they missed it on the first count) Or these nonviable people can just go home. "yeah"

Once they work through this and are left with only viable groups that count is the "final alignment" count that gets reported out

3. Get ready for the absurd. Note that prior to this cycle this used to be the only way Iowa reported its results. They take the final alignment result and turn it into "state delegate equivalents" (SDEs). Basically, every precinct gets weighed according to how the last Democratic president did in turnout for the 2016 general and how the Democratic governor candidate did in turnout for the 2018 general. So Clinton obviously as well as Fred Hubbell who was the candidate for governor in 2018.

This... obviously makes things more complicated for a number of reasons. First off general turnout is much higher than caucus turnout. Also caucus turnout has typically been higher in more liberal, urban/suburban areas proportionately so these weights will generally see rural precincts favored in this transition. This is why places like 538 were talking about the real possibility of Sanders "underperforming" his actual vote total when you got to SDEs and conversely how Buttigieg/Klobuchar and even Biden could punch way above his weight there.

It's this SDE count that is used to determine delegates sent to the convention so in that sense it's the result that is most directly meaningful to the process and again why it used to be the only metric reported out by Iowa before this cycle.

---