Board 8 > Umineko Playthrough Topic Part 7

(+) Yeah! (+)

4) Beatrice (Down 1 spot)
So this is a tricky one as well. This ranking is primarily for the meta-Beatrice that we spent 3 episodes with in Question Arcs. Its not based on the italian Beatrice, she was just, like, whatever. Its sort of influenced by school uniform Beatrice, but shes also sort of not really our Beatrice. The new Beatrice without her memories was sweet, I suppose, as was the Beatrice that Rosa met at Kuwadorian. But mainly, the meta Beatrice, the one with the evil cackles and the dress, the one that Battler is in love with, is still fantastic. She gets brought down a bit when you see her origins and realize shes just, yknow, the imagination of a kid. Some of her early scenes as shes figuring out who she is are awkward, for sure. But ultimately, the strong impression left by the meta Beatrice, whether thats still all just Yasu imagining her, or if she took on a life of her own by joining the meta world was a good character.

3) Ange (Up 3 spots)
She dropped last time after episode 5 because she wasnt in it, but shes back for 6 and 7 and despite not really doing a whole lot or having any additional growth, she remains a nice PoV character who is mature and relateable and never does anything dumb or annoying. (Though I wish shed held her ground when it came to staying strong ijn the ep7 tea party instead of immediately breaking)

2) Natsuhi (No change)
As the game progresses and people fail to make new impressions, or just drop in esteem as their characters stay flat, Im feeling pretty good about my Natsuhi position. I lowered her a bit during episodes 2 to 4 because the impression she made in episode 1 didnt super last, but episode 5 was really strong for her and she is just ultimately the character I am comfortable saying is my favourite out of everyone. She is actually a genuinely good person, her motives for the bad things she does (basically just lying about Kinzo, and ocasionally trying to make sure her own family gets the gold) make sense. Her emotional arc about being forced into the family, but trying her best to love Krauss (who is, btw, unloveable) and trying to be what she feels the Ushiromiya head wife should be, even to the extent of imagining Kinzo supports her Its all very tragic. But her personal convictions are quite respectable and I love how she always tries to stand up for the right thing. Anyway, she is a sweet innocent cinammon roll as usual and can do no wrong. But

1) Lion (New)
best girl. dont @ me.

GANON1025 posted...

How can Rosa be this high??? She's horrible in every way.

you ruined my end-of-page cliffhanger. =/

but that's okay.

anyway rosa is certainly horrible but i like her because it's well-written horribleness. she has very very well fleshed out character motivations and her actions are always in line with those.

Rosa is literally the best mom ever wtf ganon

anyway, when this is done, i'll be curious to see y'alls character rankings =)

but there's one episode left. let's get started. i can't guarantee i'll have much to say if it's just solving the riddles.

actually, i could maybe go back and look at will's summaries. might be worth it just to see if i can sort of figure out a little bit. if i have a save file near the end, i will.

I dislike Rosa so much, if I were to ever do a character ranking I wouldn't even include her.
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i mean, here's the thing: rosa, eva, rudolf, kyrie, and krauss are all horrible.

only hideyoshi and natsuhi of the adults aren't.

(and kyrie wasn't for most of it, and debateably still may or may not be, since it's not confirmed if what bern showed us was true or not)

so, like, why say "rosa is horrible" only and not complain about the position of, say, eva or krauss, y'know?

(that's not a real question, i'm not asking for your feelings on those characters yet - but we can get to it after episode 8, since we're almost there, that's a better time to really dive into larger conversations)

was moreso just making a point, the question was rhetorical

Maybe so, but the game revels in showing how bad Rosa is, in so many more scenes compared to the rest IMO
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I don't think I've actually done a character ranking yet lol. I've had Arria make one for every episode, but I personally haven't done it. I'll have to think about it. On an unrelated note, I recently made a list of top 20 hottest anime women and Beatrice was my #1.
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I'd probably just make a tier list before a full blown ranking tbh

It's been a while

is there a fast skip command?

only way i can go back and look at will's summary of the murders is if i skip through literally everything i did that last day, since it was all one long session with no saves.

anyway, let's start episode 8

surely there won't be half a dozen new magic characters this episode. maybe it'll be the first episode to not introduce any new characters.

well we get a mini-ange sprite

that's something

lol

but i can't really find a reason to "care" about battler visiting 6-year old ange, because, like... this isn't even real?

6-year old ange's inner thoughts are strangely intelligent

but anyway

she's given a "key" and she'll have to decide, when the moment comes, to use it or not.

sure, whatever?

until i know what this chapter is like, i can't make sense of it

are we going to have a gameboard where 6-year old ange wasn't sick that year?!

the key will let her decide if she wants to stay on rokkenjima, or leave.

i just wonder if this game has, like, a climax.

because episode 7 certainly wasn't one.

Dels posted...

Oh. I noticed the scenes, but I think I assumed they were things I had already seen? Or was that at another time.

Either way, neat. Yeah, that makes sense.

Let's just say there's a good reason they're tinted red, and referred to as Clair's guts.

Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa are always going to be near the bottom of my personal rankings. You've already described why for Genji, and Nanjo's the same but for gold. "Now see, I could do something about being friends with an incestuous rapist who keeps his daughter locked up in a mansion in the woods...or I could have this gold bar."

Regarding past things you might have forgotten:
Bern episode 1:

I intend to enjoy this endless tale that Beato is going to weave until I tire of it. But that alone won't hold my interest. That's why I'll lend you my power. It's all so that I don't get tired of this.

I am the cruelest witch in the world. Whoever the opponent may be, I'll certainly make them surrender. Even if it's Beatrice, the Endless Witch, alright...?

Kyrie Episode 3:
https://lparchive.org/Umineko-no-Naku-Koro-ni/Update%2089/40-2629.png
https://lparchive.org/Umineko-no-Naku-Koro-ni/Update%2089/41-2630.png

Kyrie Episode 6: https://lparchive.org/Umineko-no-Naku-Koro-ni-Chiru/Update%2052/44-1458.png

"I'm opening this game board one last time... for you..." - Battler

yeah

episode 6: "this is... the final game"

episode 7: "i'm going to run... one final game"

but this time it has to be true, at least

but this is just like how characters "die" "for good" "never coming back" lol

Dels posted...

is there a fast skip command?

only way i can go back and look at will's summary of the murders is if i skip through literally everything i did that last day, since it was all one long session with no saves.

It's a little bit unwieldy, but you can hold ctrl.

i mean, i remember those kyrie quotes lol. they were pretty unforgettable. but in episode 3, she says that to, what a stake sister? i mean, she was clearly a lot more, uh, "aggressive" than i expected there, but it was within the context of being very obsessed with a man, it didn't necessarily indicate "i'm a psycho who has no feelings for any human being in the world besides rudolf, and even then i only want him like a child wants her favourite toy"

also she was fighting an evil stake demon and it was a fantasy scene.

and yes, in episode 6 she said she'd kill asumu, but she's telling this to jessica, so it's not like she's admitting to being a cold-blooded murderer, it just seemed like a confession that she'd do anything to get her man, which, again, is different from being a psychopath.

anyway, yes, apparently bern did declare herself the cruelest witch in the world, so there's that.

Cyouni posted...

I am the cruelest witch in the world. Whoever the opponent may be, I'll certainly make them surrender. Even if it's Beatrice, the Endless Witch, alright...?

This line is the exact reason I asked Dels to reread the Ep 1 ??? earlier btw <_<

ok, i held ctrl for a few minutes and I'll just quickly go over Will's final statements about each murder again...

yes i figured cy was just fetching the line you were looking for

i mean, if she said it, she said it. she didn't act very evil, but yes, i suppose, "when someone tells you who they are, believe them"

i mean, look, i will admit that kyrie admitting she'd probably kill asumu was sort of a hint that she may not be a good person, but remember, i was blinded by my love for her, so i just sort of let it go as like "oh i'm sure she doesn't really mean that", y'know

and even then, i'm very sympathetic to her hating asumu since asumu literally stole her man, so it was an understandable sentiment.

and also, that scene wasn't real, because jessica and kyrie never met that night, and jessica didn't kill kyrie.

ok so

first game, first twilight

illusions to illusions. the corpse that cannot return to earth returns to illusions.

i mean, what does this mean? i assume it just means that, like, shannon's corpse there wasn't real somehow. it can't return to earth either because she wasn't dead, or because it was a fake, but either way, kanon had to live on. it's an illusion. right?

first game, second twilight

illusions to illusions. a chain of illusions can only trap illusions.

uh. does illusions mean they weren't really dead?! uhhhhh? i dunno. i'm not sure why call those deaths illusions. but the chain... is that the chain on the door? was there maybe no chain after all? if an accomplice is the one who said there was a chain, the chain is an illusion.

first game, kinzo's death.

illusions to illusions. let the man of illusions go to where he belongs.

i mean, yeah, he was already dead. since shannon was "dead", she could go around and do this. but kanon had an alibi...? or not, i guess? idk. whatever.

first game, kanon's death.

the witch and stake of illusions can pierce naught but illusions.

well, this one must be an illusion since kanon probably lives and keeps killing? and nanjo obviously would do anything for gold, so he's just an easy accomplice to any crime...?

first game, parlor deaths featuring maria.

illusions are the blind girl's song. illusion of a closed room.

was this one a closed room? i guess it maybe was, but does it even matter? the point of this one is that everyone alive was in the study and had an alibi. but shannon was lurking around, so, whatever, if the closed room was fake? i don't even remember why this one was a closed room, so i don't particularly care.

second game, first twilight.

the gold truth locks the lock of illusions.

...well i couldn't even imagine what that means. something about the lock on the chapel door being the key to solving this, maybe...? we thought the door was locked but there's a way it isn't?

second game, jessica and kanon.

illusions who have fulfilled their role do not leave even a corpse behind.

right, well, the answer is (straightforwardly, shockingly) that kanon killed her! as rosa always suspected, haha. (there are a LOT of straightforward things in this game, actually, but we'll get to that later. but shannon came under suspicion for many things, and it just was true. like "oh, only shannon knows my favourite season is spring! she must be working with the blackmailer!") anyway, kanon kills jessica then leaves.

second game, natsuhi's room (twilights 4, 5, 6, but not really)

earth to earth. (NOT illusion, for the first time...?) "no one would dispute that a coffin is a closed room"

i have no clue what that means. possibly that it's no illusion. after all, shannon died there, right? so she killed them and herself, no illusion.

second game, seventh and eights twilights (but this happened earlier! didn't it?)

kanon kills, uh, whoever. nanjo and kumasawa i think?

"earth to earth. illusions to illusions. no illusion can create a corpse"

what does that even mean? no clue on this one. they're both servants so they could've been paid to pretend to be dead or something? idk.

third game, first twilight. closed room chain.

illusions to illusions. in a closed room ring, the end and the beginning overlap.

i mean, i dunno, i just assume it's saying there's some sort of trick based on it being a loop that let it look like they were all closed. the interesting part is that shannon and kanon's bodies were both found? so...? i don't remember enough to solve this anyway.

third game, second twilight. rosa and maria.

earth to earth. no falsehoods in their final moments as told.

well, yeah, if shannon/kanon survive that first set, they can just go murder them. or hell, maybe eva really does do it, idk.

third game, 4/5/6. "three corpses lying in the mansion" is this... rudolf, kyrie, hideyoshi?

earth to earth. no falsehoods again.

yeah, they just died for real, killed by either shannon or eva i guess, since eva did sneak out...?

third game, 7th and 8th twilights. i think this is natsuhi and krauss, but these were not memorable deaths.

earth to earth. the obvious culprit wields a mutable blade.

idk what mutable blade means but whatever. anyone could've killed them i guess.

fourth game, first twilight.

illusions to illusions. tales woven by the gold truth return to illusions.

idk. chapter 4 is hard because we barely have anything to go off of. this wasn't a closed room. someone just killed everyone. ok?

fourth game, second twilight. who even is this? "the two youths face a trial and pass away together". jessica and george i guess?

illusions to illusions. more gold truth.

no clue.

those deaths weren't illusions though, rgiht? jessica called battler and then... died...? weird. i don't remember.

fourth game. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

this is ALL the prison'd people.

earth. illusions. silent corpses, adorned by fiction.

right, so none of that prison escape happened, but some of them died, and some are illusions of course, because shannon/kanon was in that group.

and then fourth game, ninth twilight. kumasawa and gohda die, hung.

earth to earth. illusions to illusions. when fiction is shut up inside a cat box, it becomes truth.

uh.

no clue. does earth mean real death and illusion means faked?

but they both died, battler checked...

i don't have any clue what this has to do with fiction or cat boxes, sorry.

alright, that's all you get from me. i have no clue what most of those hints mean or how the crimes were done other than when i can say "well shannon faked her death/alibi and then had free reign to do whatever"

but that serves as a nice reminder of all the crimes going into the final episode i guess

I like the poetic solutions in the VN and how there's still some things left for the reader to work out, but thanks to the manga anyone can now check their work.
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Sceptilesolar posted...

I like the poetic solutions in the VN and how there's still some things left for the reader to work out, but thanks to the manga anyone can now check their work.

^

I was going to wait until after you were done with ep 8 to mention it, but the manga adaptation of Will's answer session in Ep 7 does outright give the answers.

aaanyway, back to episode 8

not to mention episode 5 had its own murders as well. that's a pretty big one. how did everyone in the cousin room die when everyone has an alibi and erika was listening all night and watching everyone enter/leave...?

i mean, i guess shannon/kanon is the killer there but i don't remember their alibi, so whatever.

episode 6's closed rooms are pretty whatever, hell maybe the "it was just a prank" explanation holds, so the only mystery is how kanon or shannon or whoever got out of the guesthouse.

i mean, i just don't really like this format where mysteries with really complex mechanics are introduced but then not solved until many chapters later. you learn to just start saying "whatever" and move on. i don't really care about the answers to any of them. the moment has past, y'know?

Dels posted...

not to mention episode 5 had its own murders as well. that's a pretty big one. how did everyone in the cousin room die when everyone has an alibi and erika was listening all night and watching everyone enter/leave...?

i mean, i guess shannon/kanon is the killer there but i don't remember their alibi, so whatever.

This one was answered, there was never a murder scene. At the time the game was stopped, the only actual dead guy was Krauss, everyone else was faking and just left the location of their murders when Erika was gone.
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https://snag.gy/iuLVNQ.jpg

i don't get it

are they the same person or not?

why can't the game just explicitly tell me what it wants me to know?!

like is this one of those "the characters believe in a delusion, so it's real to them" lie? is it the game master lying to me?

i don't really get it, i wish they'd just tell me the rules

Sceptilesolar posted...

Dels posted...

not to mention episode 5 had its own murders as well. that's a pretty big one. how did everyone in the cousin room die when everyone has an alibi and erika was listening all night and watching everyone enter/leave...?

i mean, i guess shannon/kanon is the killer there but i don't remember their alibi, so whatever.

This one was answered, there was never a murder scene. At the time the game was stopped, the only actual dead guy was Krauss, everyone else was faking and just left the location of their murders when Erika was gone.

i'm sorry, what? i don't remember that at all.

Dels posted...

Sceptilesolar posted...

Dels posted...

not to mention episode 5 had its own murders as well. that's a pretty big one. how did everyone in the cousin room die when everyone has an alibi and erika was listening all night and watching everyone enter/leave...?

i mean, i guess shannon/kanon is the killer there but i don't remember their alibi, so whatever.

This one was answered, there was never a murder scene. At the time the game was stopped, the only actual dead guy was Krauss, everyone else was faking and just left the location of their murders when Erika was gone.

i'm sorry, what? i don't remember that at all.

That was the conclusion from the EP5 ???, that the 1st twilight victims died well after Battler 'found the bodies', since he was in on it.
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Dels posted...

Sceptilesolar posted...

Dels posted...

not to mention episode 5 had its own murders as well. that's a pretty big one. how did everyone in the cousin room die when everyone has an alibi and erika was listening all night and watching everyone enter/leave...?

i mean, i guess shannon/kanon is the killer there but i don't remember their alibi, so whatever.

This one was answered, there was never a murder scene. At the time the game was stopped, the only actual dead guy was Krauss, everyone else was faking and just left the location of their murders when Erika was gone.

i'm sorry, what? i don't remember that at all.

It's literally the theory Battler gave in the Ep 5 ???

Nobody was dead (Krauss aside) even though he screamed and everybody claimed they were dead.

...uhhhhhhh

i don't really remember that?

i thought i remembered something about them not actually being dead at night, but then dying in the morning or something? or the bodies were fake in the morning or something?

i actually can't really remember how it ended at all, tbh.

didn't everyone rush in and find the bodies and stuff and cry? so you're saying it was all an act, what, to trick erika...?

but krauss actually did die...? and someone did actually frame natsuhi?

i don't really get it. i don't remember any of this.

Sceptilesolar posted...

Dels posted...

not to mention episode 5 had its own murders as well. that's a pretty big one. how did everyone in the cousin room die when everyone has an alibi and erika was listening all night and watching everyone enter/leave...?

i mean, i guess shannon/kanon is the killer there but i don't remember their alibi, so whatever.

This one was answered, there was never a murder scene. At the time the game was stopped, the only actual dead guy was Krauss, everyone else was faking and just left the location of their murders when Erika was gone.

That's not precisely correct - when the bodies are discovered, no one is dead. At the time the game is stopped, their deaths are confirmed.

So somewhere in between the discovery and the stoppage of play, they were murdered.

i'm very confused.

so episode 5 established that the body discovery in the morning wasn't real?

BUT it also used red to say that they were dead

so for some reason, they faked their deaths that morning? and battler may or may not have helped? but then sometime after, they died anyway...?

i mean i recall battler saying some blue text theories about this but i don't remember anything being confirmed, the chapter just sort of ended abruptly with battler dying and whatever.

Dels posted...

i'm very confused.

so episode 5 established that the body discovery in the morning wasn't real?

BUT it also used red to say that they were dead

so for some reason, they faked their deaths that morning? and battler may or may not have helped? but then sometime after, they died anyway...?

This is an accurate summary, though it's not too hard to solve the reason for "sometime after, they died" at this point.

Dels posted...

so episode 5 established that the body discovery in the morning wasn't real?

Yes.

Battler's play in the Ep 5 ??? was to set himself up as the culprit, using "The revenge of the man from 19 years ago" as a motive. Since Erika's listening proved that he couldn't actually kill them himself once he entered the room, his claim was that when he screamed and claimed to discover corpses, nobody was actually dead. They were then all moved to a different location and subsequently killed.

To clarify, it was never confirmed that this was the actual, literal truth of the situation. However, Erika's detective work and the red truth provided by Bern/Lambda as a result of it does mean that the only alternative is Natsuhi Culprit, which was also disproven (Albeit not in a manner that the court gimmick was willing to accept, due to Knox's 2nd) by Red Truth in the episode itself