Board 8 > Umineko Playthrough Topic Part 7

(+) Yeah! (+)

Welcome to topic 7. We are currently nearing the end, after just over half a year.

We're a little ways into episode 7 now, having finished what seems to be the first main investigation of this episode.

Parts 1 to 6 are archived here, roughly one topic per episode:
http://zyxyzarchive.x10host.com/index_delsumi.html

Thank you Zyxyz!

This is a spoiler-free thread! Please do not discuss anything past where I am. Even small spoilers or implications like "Can't wait for you to get to X" or "Y character will become better later", etc. And there is no need to respond to any of my musings unless you're just clarifying something that I should already know based on the game so far. Thank you!

We've gotten a little more lax with the above, which is fine as I "understand" the game a lot better now, but let's not loosen it too much.

Facts about previous episodes that I've forgotten since it's been six months, but might otherwise remember, are okay, unless you posting the fact clearly hints towards something.

If you want to discuss with spoilers, please visit Raka's spectating topic here:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/77401344

If you haven't played the game, back out now!

If I needed any more confirmation that the game was giving me a "this is solveable" message, this would be it.

Will says he knew the whodunnit and the whydunnit by the end of episode 4, just not the how. Well, of course, the how is the most complicated part. Even I have been able to roughly speculate about the who and the why.

I think it's interesting though that this game may be solveable equally well by any of the 3. Who, why, how.

Some people might gravitate towards the how, especially those who could replay the chapters and take notes and find every little thing.

Personally, as you guys know, I gravitated towards the "why". By analyzing the game's themes, I made the claim that the mastermind and/or culprit probably relates to the following themes:

- The theme of how things in life, like roses/short-lived relationships, can be beautiful and be appreciated even if they don't last
- The theme of how life is only worth it because of the struggle, it's not worth it if you just get everything that makes you happy, without things that make you sad
- The theme of the cycle of abuse, how society treats "lower" people (be it class, or age/family) worse, and how they continue to perpetuate that cycle
- The (core, core, very important, "literally all of episode 4 is about this, and the entire game") theme of how people can take control of their happiness by creating their own truth about the world

I'm probably forgetting one or more.

I'm not going to solve this game beyond what I already have, I can't look into the how dunnit, and I just don't have any other ideas about possible culprits.

But I'll say that my guess is that the whydunnit is a combination of some of those themes.

As a reminder, I said Shannon fit all this because a) she has a relationship with George that she appreciates even if it will break, b) she has struggled as a servant her whole life, and most importantly, c) she has a motive to strike back against people who treated her badly and/or will perpetuate the cycle herself, and d) she has proven she will do what it takes to create a better life for herself, as she "imagined" Beatrice granting her impossible love, plus she'd travel to an island and smash a spirit mirror for it. Plus she's just generally into the myth of Beatrice and talks about seeing the world in color, she's very passionate about it, and passionate = murderous I guess =P

Now, I'm a little bit less sure about this. Because if the twist is just going to be that Shannon and Kanon are the same person, is that to set up them being the mastermind? Or is it a totally seperate thing? If Shannon and Kanon are actually dying every episode, the twist with them will help explain some of the murders and the disappearing body stuff. But if they do actually die, then are they really the mastermind? lol

I mean, that's been the biggest question, because in every chapter, everyone dies. But one of them must be the mastermind, I guess. It's easy to say "as a servant who had a bad life, they wanted to die and take everyone with them", but, meh.

Anyway, I'll give one more quick rundown on potential masterminds, but I don't really know who else it could be.

And more importantly: Is it easier to be a man who puts on fake breasts to display a feminine persona...? Or to be a woman who binds them down to pretend to be male sometimes...?

And why is that even a question on my mind, tbh

I mean, I think there must be some illusion going on with the graphics we are shown, because Shannon and Kanon look pretty different either way. Like, their hair is literally a different color. And Kanon is flat and Shannon is not.

Did I ever mention that Kanon is teh only character who has a different picture for his bio than the profile pic shown on the left? I don't think it means anything either way, but still.

Unfortunately, glancing at the character chart, I just don't have anything new. My mastermind picks have not changed from the beginning, because the characters have mostly continued to fill the same narrative role as I predicted from the start.

Kinzo - nope 'cause dead most of the time

Krauss - hell no, absolutely nothing about krauss as a character is suitable for a mastermind

Natsuhi - sweet and innocent, clearly not mastermind

Jessica - no way. would make no sense.

Eva - I mean, still, no. She actually could be a mastermind since she's been given more complexity, so it wouldn't just be "cruel-seeming character turns out to actually be cruel", but it's just not her role in the story, I don't think.

Hideyoshi - I have no reason to believe he's the mastermind except that he's been relatively on the sidelines and hasn't shown any reason he can't be. Process of elimination keeps him in. I do feel he's been a bit underused, which can indicate he has a big part to play in the climax, so he's still a possibility.

George - I mean, he's a smug condescending jerk. And evil. But. I mean, I guess it's probably not him?

Rudolf - Nahhhhhh. I mean, maybe. Did we ever find out why in episode 1 he thought he was going to die? There's still more to explore here, his relationship with Battler needs to be fleshed out and clarified. And that'd be really weird to do from a PoV of him being the mastermind, but, eh, it's possible.

Kyrie - Again, not ruled out, because she's mysterious and stuff, but idk, she's kind of explained what her deal is by talking about her hatred of Asumu and her "do anything for love" ideas. I'm aware that sort of fits in with the themes I mentioned, she was a "lowly secretary" or w/e so her rank was lower and she had trouble due to it, but, eh.

Battler - I have no clue where to even begin, but it kinda feels like a no at this point... It'd just be too weird. I could type thoughts about this but my mind gets foggy even trying to start.

Genji - Eh. Just not narratively satisfiyng, sorry, he's been a non-factor and we don't know enough about his motives and stuff for it to have been particularly solveable.

Rosa - hell no.

Maria - nope.

Gohda and Kumasawa - same as Genji but even more. Just not enough for them. Kumasawa maaaaybe, since she's shown her principles a bit more, but eh. Maybe if there's some twist and she's, like, the older version of some other character...? But I don't really think so.

So, based on that, the mastermind potential rankings hasn't really changed:

Absolutely Never:
Krauss, Natsuhi, Rosa

Strong No:
Jessica, Maria, Kinzo

Not Satisfying Enough:
Genji, Gohda, Kumasawa

Not ruled out, but I just feel their character arc won't work well as a mastermind:
Eva, Rudolf, Kyrie

???:
Battler

Not ruled out:
Hideyoshi, George

I'm aware that Shannon/Kanon being the mastermind has some issues since it really feels like that twist should be a separate one from the mastermind twist. After all, it's already been strongly hinted at (practically blatantly revealed), and we're not even in episode 8.

But if it's not them, I don't really see who it can be. Hideyoshi and George can roughly fit, but, it's just not something I feel strongly about.

So I'm basically at a point where my top theory doesn't seem correct, but I just can't replace it, so... I dunno.

as the game explained in episode 5, when i see something on screen that isn't true, it's because it's a lie that the other characters are believing in

like, when maria sees beatrice, it's not actually her, but i see it like it is

and etc

so, it's not that kanon and shannon actually have to look like that

if it's a collective "lie", it could just literally be that genji told everyone "btw, we've hired a servant who has multiple personalities, when they introduce themselves as kanon please treat them like a boy, and when they say they are shannon, please treat them accordingly"

though it'd be really fucking weird for george and shannon to fall in love with that person, t b q h.

not to mention, if people knewthey were the same person, they wouldn't dance around it during murders. they'd straight up be like "okay well those 2 bodies should both be the same person" or "what do you mean kanon died, she's right here"

also i guess the different hair colors can just be from wigs anyway lol

but either way, surely someone must know their secret...

will even has a hypothesis about the riddle at the end of episode 4

i certainly don't

someone who can kill battler even though he's alone on the island?

is it... "old age"...? LOL

well, as if it wasn't clear enough, will has now explicitly called the culprit to the chapel.

well, uh, i guess this is the moment where the detective says he's solved it.

but it's a detective who wasn't even part of the game until episode 7. kinda weird, tbh.

like, eh.

like i said earlier... umineko has had such amazing climactic sequences every chapter...

you'd think the key reveals would come during one of those, with those exciting music tracks playing, and huge battles of red and blue that ultimately lead to a reveal. you know, like a phoenix wright or danganronpa trial.

will is just going to calmly explain all the answers here to bernkastel?

it's kind of... lame... >_>

i hope there's more to it...

i mean, there must be. this isn't the final chapter.

and yet, we cut away

maybe will's part is done? and we're gonna cut away and not show his explanation? =P

oh okay. another new character. because of course.

and we're at a theatre.

well there's the sweet climactic music i wanted.

i just, i dunno, you'd think the big climax would happen in the "trial" location, with red and blue swords flying, with battler and virgilia and ronove and gaap and dlanor and just... with everyone.

let's see what will and/or this theatre with some new white-haired girl can offer...

like, battler is our protagonist, the one we're meant to relate to and see things through his eyes

but he learned all the answers off screen and now he's not even in the story anymore

i don't mean to criticize the game too much before I know where it's going, but it's all feeling very strange to me. this episode is just odd.

why does a mansion that is lived in most of the year by, what, like, literally 4 people? need so many servants?

like literally most of the year its just kinzo, krauss, natsuhi, and jessica there?

but they have a huge rotation of servants?

is that normal for mansions with only 4 people living in them? i'd think maybe one butler, one cook, one maid... or something? idk. i guess its normal.

stake sister = servant now. yeah whatever

of course, i thought this flashback was from the PoV of shannon/kanon

but then shannon appears and says "don't be scared"

but that just means kanon is the PoV and shannon is his imaginary friiiiend

the love sisters discuss:

"Isn't Shannon scared too? This house looks pretty strict...!"
"Nah, there's nothing scary about it. You just thought it was scary, so it got scary."

"Then if I thought it was fun, would it get fun?!"
"Yeah, it would."

so what they're saying is...

you can choose your own reality?!

based on your outlook?!

well i for one am shocked

"Shannon was my only friend in the Fukuin House. She was confident and popular."

Is Shannon really ever confident? Well, okay, sometimes she does get super super bold. And then other times super timid.

so the love sisters and Clair take turns narrating basically...?

i mean, this flashback being from the PoV of a servant (is this Kanon...? who else could it be?) seems to set up the idea of "a servant = the killer", else why would we be seeing it

but i don't know

will said this culprit just wants someone to notice them

and this PoV servant feels ignored and small and stuff

maybe there's someone else who has been here all along but that we never noticed...? is it that kind of twist...? lol

Dels posted...

will even has a hypothesis about the riddle at the end of episode 4

i certainly don't

someone who can kill battler even though he's alone on the island?

is it... "old age"...? LOL

In red truth: I will kill you NOW.

I'm emphasizing the 'now' part.
---

well, wait, the red truth said there were "no more than 17 people" after we learned the kinzo thing (down from "no more than 18")

since we know now its 16 people, does that leave room for some sort of 17th entity, or not?

Eerieka posted...

Dels posted...

will even has a hypothesis about the riddle at the end of episode 4

i certainly don't

someone who can kill battler even though he's alone on the island?

is it... "old age"...? LOL

In red truth: I will kill you NOW.

I'm emphasizing the 'now' part.

yeah that's fine.

i mean, it's not like i think beatrice is the personification of old age. lol.

i mean, for all i know, battler is kinzo, and battler could die of old age right then. =P

i mean, this PoV servant apparently "goes to school with milady"

kanon didn't go to school with jessica

so...

we cut back to will and lion, and lion seems to be sayign that this new young servant person is the equivalent of herself? it's the grandchild of beatrice...?

does that mean the child didn't fall of a cliff...?

i'm a lil confused, but w/e

I guess so. Will seems to confirm that in the other universes, the servant kid is Lion. Okay...?

Is Lion Kanon then...? lol. I guess not?

But does this mean that Lion actually existed in all the other games maybe...? As the real 17th person...? Or something...?

this stuff about the abandoned baby of 19 years ago only even came up in episode 5, didn't it? so how could you get it as an answer from just episodes 1 to 4...?

Fukuin-Lion describes how Shannon, her only friend, doesn't step in to defend her as she's getting bullied. Just like how Ange's stakes never stepped in to help her.

And then Lion says "She'll show me how things are done, but she'll never steal my jobs from me."

in other words, she doesn't ever physically interact with things, huh

so Shannon is Lion's imaginary friend

This "Shannon" we're seeing isn't really there, and the Shannon from episodes 1 to 6 is apparently just Lion, grown up, pretending to be this imaginary friend...

I mean, I'm not clever for seeing this - Umineko has explained its tricks to me enough that this isn't hard to see

hell, based on shannon's age it probably doesn't even make sense that she'd already be a servant at this time, but idk the math

also, lion talked about how he got put in the same dorm as shannon

but then the stake servants said "aren't dorms supposed to be 2 people", indicating lion gets a room to themself

so obviously shannon is an imaginary friend

i really don't know if i would've solved this if you hadn't asked me to name the 16 people, tbh.

of course, the joke could be on me, i could be totally wrong and you're all laughing.

i like how, for all its deviation from the standard murder mystery plot, with all the fantasy stuff, umineko is ending up returning to the classic tropes - a hidden baby from a mistress.

Dels posted...

i like how, for all its deviation from the standard murder mystery plot, with all the fantasy stuff, umineko is ending up returning to the classic tropes - a hidden baby from a mistress.

To be fair, this trope has been thrown around by basically every character in the story as a possibility since Ep 1 <_<

in other words, if this keeps up: the answer is, the person i refer to as "Sayoshiya", aka Kanon+Shannon, is actually Lion, and Lion... is the mastermind?

well, that's certainly one possibility.

but let's see if it really is that simple. there's a whole other chapter left.

Reg posted...

Dels posted...

i like how, for all its deviation from the standard murder mystery plot, with all the fantasy stuff, umineko is ending up returning to the classic tropes - a hidden baby from a mistress.

To be fair, this trope has been thrown around by basically every character in the story as a possibility since Ep 1 <_<

absolutely, but we sort of got away from it for a bit as we got sidetracked with, y'know, witches and demons and rituals and stuff

"i didn't tell kinzo about his granddaughter, because i figured he'd probably rape her" - genji

well that's sweet

why did nanjo stay friends with kinzo after learning what he did

i can vaguely understand staying friends with him when he was just keeping her there and giving her, like, a really pampred (but shitty) life

but

uh

did nanjo learn that kinzo raped her and was still like "well its understandable, you know, because of love"

are we really gonna go through 9 "chapters" of exposition...?

god i just feel like this chapter is so dropping the ball. the truth is being revealed, but it's just by a bunch of new characters who had no relation to the previous chapters, and none of the main players are involved...? it's just a series of flashbacks over and over...