Board 8 > Board 8 Comic Book Club #1

(+) Yeah! (+)

At some point, we should discuss the terrible haircuts of the Osborn boys. I have never seen such terrible styles in real life.
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I thought the Juggernaut story was just okay. I was more interested in what was happening with the characters at the Bugle than the slow speed chase happening throughout the rest of the issues, despite not really knowing much about any of the characters. I've always been more of a character development over action sequence kind of person, though, so that might explain it. I did find some of the cameos to be pretty cool, though!

I wouldn't say cheesy is the right word, and it's definitely not camp, but something about the dialogue rubs me the wrong way. Some of these older stories, such as this one and A Death in the Family, have writing that I find to be not good, but then others like Year One, The Killing Joke, or The Dark Knight Returns I find to be very good. It might have something to do with how the stories are tonally presented, with the dark, serious stuff sounding better to me.

I'm not sure if those contrasting themes represent the DC of the time and the Marvel of the time, since I have no experience with other Marvel stories of the 80s and my experience with DC of the 80s is really only the 4 stories I mentioned, but if they do, then I guess that answers your question, Scarlet.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

There will be other companies after the first month.

Aw nice. I've been reading a lot from Image, Valiant and Vertigo lately.

I have been collecting a bunch of sets and just recently grabbed up all of The Sandman books which has been pretty interesting thus far.

I actually ordered another interesting series yesterday too called Locke & Key and can't wait to get those on Thursday.

What other companies will you be covering if I may ask?
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Also is there a list of stories somewhere that you have covered so far scarlet?

I'd like to try and see if I can get caught up on what you are presenting here.
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Se7enthrust posted...

Also is there a list of stories somewhere that you have covered so far scarlet?

I'd like to try and see if I can get caught up on what you are presenting here.

There's two sets of stories and they're both listed in the thread.
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The 2011 Spider-Man story was a lot closer to the Spider-Man I've been exposed to, and I really enjoyed it. This is a witty Spider-Man, and that's what I've been brought up to expect with the character through the games/TV shows/movies.

I thought it was a cool touch in the first issue when Peter is talking about the villains who used similar tech on him in the past to actually have old-school panels in the background depicting it. I don't think I've ever seen that before.
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It's definitely one of the best stories to come out of Dan Slott's run. I think he captures Peter's personality pretty well, although there is a huge chunk of his run that really doesn't play up the witty banter aspect at all.
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Keep reading!
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I felt like I was completely utterly lost for the first episode of the 2nd 2 part arc this week of spider Man
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I finished Blue.

While I think the Long Halloween-style romp through the rogue's gallery is always fun, I felt that the actual meat of the story was off. They nailed the framing mechanism which really showcases Peter's headspace, but the civilian story feels divorced from that. You'd expect Gwen to take a central role in the story since it's the reason it's being told, but instead she merely exists. I'll admit I'm biased against love triangles (especially when we already know the outcome), but it feels inconsequential. Peter has more meaningful interactions with Flash Gordon than either of the girls, which seems backwards.

Scarlet makes a valid point about Gwen's role, but being meant as a prop doesn't make it better to me. MJ also feels that way. I came out of this story liking them both less, which is not what I expected from the premise. It really feels like two different concepts stapled together.

That said, I am not coming to Spider-Man for the deep romance angle (Trouble, anyone???) and the superheroics and banter were great. I love the art too even if I have to deal with Harry Osborn looking older than his dad.
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Harry Osborn has always looked emaciated.
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Blue only really told me that I still will always hate Peter Parker's Spiderman. He sits there and preaches two things all too often "these are the mistakes I've made" and "this is how I'll work on it."

We all know, we can't change the past. Can someone please change your dialogue from being a little pansy? He's a college kid who's majoring in science and yet feels more like a middle schooler discovering what puberty is like for the first time as well in this story with every Gwen and MJ scene.

Oh yeah, there was also Juggernaut vs Spiderman. And it was dull to me. I might like this concept better if I actually had any manner of respect for the hero.

Sorry for those that like Spiderman, I'll probably stay away from future weeks so not to ruin anyone else's experience, and only comment if I like them. I still have no one dies to read, which at least is Ultimate, so who knows.
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WickIebee posted...

Blue only really told me that I still will always hate Peter Parker's Spiderman. He sits there and preaches two things all too often "these are the mistakes I've made" and "this is how I'll work on it."

We all know, we can't change the past. Can someone please change your dialogue from being a little pansy? He's a college kid who's majoring in science and yet feels more like a middle schooler discovering what puberty is like for the first time as well in this story with every Gwen and MJ scene.

Oh yeah, there was also Juggernaut vs Spiderman. And it was dull to me. I might like this concept better if I actually had any manner of respect for the hero.

Sorry for those that like Spiderman, I'll probably stay away from future weeks so not to ruin anyone else's experience, and only comment if I like them. I still have no one dies to read, which at least is Ultimate, so who knows.

It's not Ultimate. It says Amazing right there on the file!
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Harry is both in high school and a middle-aged man in Blue.

He legit looks 20 years older than everyone else.
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Today is the last day for Spider-Man Week! It seems like there was much less discussion for Spider-Man, so I may not push more Spider-man for quite some time.
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For what it's worth, I actually enjoyed the reading more this week. Just found it harder to find time to discuss.

Spider-Man Blue:
I absolutely loved this series. It was fun to see Spider-Man battle through his rogues and I especially enjoyed because I read the issues that Blue was retelling, so it was fun to see the similarities / differences. Kraven has always been one of my favorite of his villains, so him being behind it all was great fun too.

Gwen Stacey has always been one of my favorites. I disagree with the take of her in this topic that has been discussed so far as not having much of a character. She was a pretty girl who was popular, but she didn't truly fit in with them. That much is obvious in Blue alone for how she scolds Flash when he is mean to Peter and Flash's reaction to that. He's not used to be challenged and Gwen was willing to challenge him. She was intrigued by Peter and the fact that he was different from what she was used to. This internal struggle she has is what defines Gwen's character to me.

Granted, this miniseries was still more about Peter and his reactions to Gwen/MJ than Gwen/MJ, and they do feel ancillary to the series, but I think that's by design. The pedestal Peter put Gwen on is more relevant to this story. And I love the take at the end that Gwen's death is what caused MJ to mature and be able to be in a relationship with Peter.

Revenge of Spider Slayers
Any reason we read Parts 2 & 3 but excluded Part 1? Seemed odd.

There was a lot about more recent Spider-Man that I was unaware. JJJ is mayor? Aunt May married JJJ's father?? These developments were interesting to me for sure. I also was somewhat confused -- I'm assuming this must have been retconned but I thought Peter revealed he was Spider-Man during Civil War - but not everyone knew in this. Maybe this is pre-Civil War?

Most of my criticisms of the Juggernaunt story were bypassed here. I liked Avengers helping out in this instance. Spider-Man was stuck heading to space and made the call for help - felt more appropriate here (plus they weren't convenient unavailable. Well, Squirrel-Girl said they were, then they all showed up.) The Bugle subplots were a lot more interesting than they were prior -- Robbie's friend is Hobgoblin and there's a love triangle brewing between them. And I actually liked Glory still working for Mayor JJJ.

I might have more to say but my laptop just told me my battery is almost dead and Jacob is sleeping on my chest so I can't go plug it in so I'm just gonna post now.
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I just flat out ran out of time to read them woops
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TotallyNotMI posted...

Revenge of Spider Slayers
Any reason we read Parts 2 & 3 but excluded Part 1? Seemed odd.

The story is generally considered parts 2 and 3 only.

TotallyNotMI posted...

I also was somewhat confused -- I'm assuming this must have been retconned but I thought Peter revealed he was Spider-Man during Civil War - but not everyone knew in this. Maybe this is pre-Civil War?

There was a big ol' retcon that gave Spider-Man his secret identity back after Civil War. It was magical voodoo (and editorial interference).
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I'm about halfway done with Blue, won't get a chance to finish until around noon tomorrow.

So far though, it's been fantastic. Easily my second favourite thing we've read so far. When I think of Spider-Man, something like this story was what I initially imagined, and was kind of let down when I started reading the ongoing a little while ago because it wasn't what I envisioned it would be.

The only thing that seems weird to me is the characterization of MJ, which feels like a complete 180 of how the character is presented in other media. I'm kind of wondering now what the "real" MJ is.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

TotallyNotMI posted...

I also was somewhat confused -- I'm assuming this must have been retconned but I thought Peter revealed he was Spider-Man during Civil War - but not everyone knew in this. Maybe this is pre-Civil War?

There was a big ol' retcon that gave Spider-Man his secret identity back after Civil War. It was magical voodoo (and editorial interference).

It was also an enormous crock of shit. <_<
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Read through all of Spider-Man. I got the most enjoyment out of Blue. Between that and Year One last week, I think I tend to prefer the longer, self-contained story arcs. Or maybe it is just a small sample size of good stories.

On the whole, I really enjoy Spider-Man's action scenes. Between his cocky bantering and interesting set of powers and abilities, I found the fights in all 3 stories to be fun.
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Haven't gotten to blue yet. Busy week.
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It's time for one of my favorite weeks.... Superman Week!

This week, we're plunging into three stories that really exemplify the sort of ground Superman covers as a character. First, we'll dive right in off the bat with one of the most well-regarded single issues of Superman ever. "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and the American Way?" is a great tale that pits Superman against a brand new, hardline supergroup that seeks to kill any threat brutally and without any due process. With their methods at odds with the Man of Steel, Superman reflects on whether his approach is now outdated. This is a phenomenal tale brought to us by Joe Kelly and Doug Mahnke, and it was so well-regarded that it was eventually made into an animated movie. "What's So Funny" was actually ranked #9 on ComicBookResources.com's Top 50 one-shots of all-time and often ranks as a top 10 Superman story. Check it out in Action Comics #775.

For our second story this week, we'll explore the Elseworlds concept for the first time in "Superman: Red Son". Written by Mark Millar, Red Son's premise is simple. What if Superman had crash landed in Russia instead of the United States? Red Son takes a stroll through some tried-and-true DC properties as it examines the formula for Superman's success and translates his sort of idealistic truism to a very different culture. Elseworlds - and multiverse parallel Earths - have become a beloved staple of DC, and Red Son stands often as one of the greatest examples of these stories.

The final story we'll read this week is "Public Enemies". Featured in Superman/Batman #1-6, this story features the very unique art stylings of Ed McGuinness and the economic writing of Jeph Loeb. In week 1 of this project, we saw how the Trinity interacted with one another, and this week we'll hone in on the relationship between Superman and Batman as they battle their way across the entire DC Universe. This is a fantastic action story that's all about big fight sequences, and it, too, was eventually made into an animated feature-length film.

A lot of people have expressed in the past on this board that Superman is a boring character. Hopefully something in this week's packet will help to dissuade you of that notion. In the meantime, if you are having trouble finding hard copies of these comics in your area, feel free to check out the Board 8 Discord where I can help you out.

Also, as a side note, every single story we'll read this week features Lex Luthor as President of the United States!
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I knew an ending like that was coming in Blue, but I still wasn't prepared for it. Emotional stuff, and a great story. I also think I answered my own MJ question.

On to Superman! I'm one of those "Superman is kind of boring" people, so I'm hoping to be enlightened here. Red Son in particular is something I've wanted to read.
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davidponte posted...

I also think I answered my own MJ question.

I wanted you to finish before I spoke to that! But yes, that was a turning point for MJ's character. So the characterization in Blue is quite accurate, just at a point in time prior to when most other media bases MJ's character.
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I don't think Superman is boring, but I think Supergirl > Superman!
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TotallyNotMI posted...

I don't think Superman is boring, but I think Supergirl > Superman!

Do you want a Supergirl week at some point?
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Personally, yes!
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I'll add it to the list then.
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I'm still following this I just haven't had time to read in a while. Expect a few catch up posts soon though.
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Looking forward to it!
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For those that don't know, What's So Funny and Public Enemies both have DC animated movies to them, they appeared in the gauntlet rankings of DCAU. Public Enemies is of the same name, so obvious to find. What's So Funny was aptly named "Superman vs the Elite"

That said, don't use the movies as alternatives to reading the comics, but check them out sometime after reading if you'd like to see how it was done with voice acting.

What's So Funny is actually one I read at the request of Scarlet himself a few years back, shall be interesting rereading now that I watched the animated movie to see subtle censored things or other small changes.
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I'm looking forward to everyone reading What's So Funny.
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Been busy this week and last so I didn't get around to the last Spiderman story and might not get to these. I've read everything but Public Enemies this week though so I might pop in for discussion but I don't have time to reread yet.

I haven't lost any interest, it's just bad timing. And What's so Funny and Red Son are some good shit, I hope people enjoy then!
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Hopefully you still find some time read.
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Finished What's So Funny.

I didn't like it.

The villains felt so weird that I couldn't take them seriously, especially when the first thing they killed was a giant ape? And they made a ship of bacteria colony? And one of them bonded with an alien? And the guy in the hat was so bizarre. I feel like they had intricate backstories for these characters but then put them in a one shot and just threw the info at us in a very confusing manner.

I like the idea of the story and know Marvel has done similar stories with Captain America.

I also was confused a lot when reading but that might be because I was reading in the middle of the night while feeding my baby. But like I thought the Elite was that group in Tokyo at first but then they started dying so I realized I was wrong. There were a few scene changes that I had no idea what was happening for a page or two.
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I absolutely adore this issue. The story doesn't want to hold our hand through a world of superheroic threats. Instead, it suggests that these doombringing enemies are absolutely commonplace in a world with hundreds of superheroes and villains. Superman is under scrutiny because, if he is this all-powerful god amongst men, why can he not simply end these pervasive and recurring threats?

The Elite are so great because they are an image of superheroic teams. The difference between the more hardcore teams of the late 90s and the early 2000s and Superman are quite clearly juxtaposed in this story. Manchester Black is a definite nod to characters like Jack Hawksmoor of the Authority, and the attitude of a proactive but brutally harsh supergroup stands in complete opposition to the standard practice of Superman. The Elite are also a very interesting group in that their representation of American sentiment both at the time of the story's release and now is very prescient. The Elite are definitely representative of the sort of power America wields, as is Superman. We are that power. America is the Superman of the world. We can utter and totally obliterate any foe we face in an instant should we choose to. As a whole I want to believe that we dont want to pummel our foes into submission. Like Superman, I want to believe that America would prefer to extend a hand in friendship then in violence. True, the world is dangerous and scary at times. Such dangers must be met with the appropriate amount of vigilance. America should, like Superman, temper our power. Such terrible power unchecked is a dangerous and frightening image.

I love the hubris of Manchester Black and how he just doesn't understand that fighting for ideals requires living up to those ideals daily. Superman fights for a way of living and Manchester Black fights for the exact opposite way of living, and yet they both believe those are the "American Way."

It's just a fantastic story that really highlights the lack of compassion in American culture in the 21st century.
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Finished Red Son 1 and loved it. I actually am surprised there are two more issues, I thought it a great one shot.

Will give more when I read the other two but it was a really great issue
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I think your write up on What's So Funny shows that we enjoy different things in comics! Everything you said I can understand your perspective but I just want ti be entertained when reading. That issue didn't entertain me.
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I do, however, want to watch the movie of it. I actually feel it would work better as a movie for some reason I can't explain.
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TotallyNotMI posted...

I think your write up on What's So Funny shows that we enjoy different things in comics! Everything you said I can understand your perspective but I just want ti be entertained when reading. That issue didn't entertain me.

I definitely have "entertaining stories" in this packet too. Public Enemies might be more along the lines of what you're looking for here.
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TotallyNotMI posted...

I do, however, want to watch the movie of it. I actually feel it would work better as a movie for some reason I can't explain.

The secret of comic books is that if you just translate good stories faithfully to the screen, they all would be better than even the best of what we get nowadays. Avengers is fine. What would be better? A direct adaptation of The Ultimates #1-6. Black Panther is fine. What would be better? A direct adaptation of The Client.
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Wow, What's So Funny was absolutely fantastic. I think enough has been said about the idea of challenging the ideals of Superman, but for me what stood out was how much I grew to hate The Elite over the course of the issue, in a "You all deserve to be beaten" kind of way.

I knew that this was a Superman comic and that, by the end, Superman would overcome the odds, but I genuinely felt as hopeless as Lois felt leading up to that final showdown. It really did feel like Clark was going to die there when he stood up against them.

I don't even particularly like the character, yet somehow I had more emotion towards the conclusion of this story than I do when reading stories about characters I do care about, where it's more of a "can't wait to see how they get out of this" feeling. The result of him defeating them gave me a kind of vengeful feeling, to the point where I was almost disappointed that he didn't just kill them all, because they deserved it as far as I was concerned. I can't really explain why I felt that way.

It then made me realize, "huh, I guess Clark Kent is a better man than I am".
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That's really interesting. I think Joe Kelly does such a great job at appealing to the reader's deepest emotions and basest instincts and really demonstrates that Superman not caving to the same emotional desires we as readers have is exactly what makes him Superman.
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The big problem I have with 'What's So Funny' is that the Elite just come out of nowhere.
Like, its just we wake up one morning and suddenly there's these four metahumans who are as strong as Superman blowing whole countries up with little explanation. Like, I get it's just a one-issue story, but maybe it shouldn't have been.

I really liked Red Son, it is interesting to see how little Superman changes even with a very different upbringing.
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PrinceKaro posted...

Like, its just we wake up one morning and suddenly there's these four metahumans who are as strong as Superman blowing whole countries up with little explanation. Like, I get it's just a one-issue story, but maybe it shouldn't have been.

That's partially the point of the story. This is a world with thousands of metahumans and superheroes, and just like in our Twitter age of instant fame, the Elite come out of nowhere and become emblematic of the zeitgeist.
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I'm still in agreement with Karo. Feels like they had a plan for this to be an arc and then changed their mind and crammed it into a one-shot.

Finished Red Son. I'm not usually a fan of 'what-if' type stories but this one was really good. The first issue was absolutely amazing, the second was pretty great, and then I felt like things fell apart hard with the ending. I didn't like Lex writing a one line letter that caused Superman to become introspective. Then I got confused because didn't Braniac trap Lex on his ship? Which is how Lex was able to disable it? But then when the ship was about to self destruct and Superman flew it away I thought Lex/Superman were both going to die, but then Lex was suddenly somewhere else?

And then I really, really really despised the time loop ending of the story.

Still enjoyed it overall, but the ending sure hurt it a lot in my opinion.
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It was never meant to be an arc.
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I think the animated movie flashes out The Elite more, if that's something you felt was lacking. But as someone who read the comic first, I thought it was overall unnecessary.
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TotallyNotMI posted...

Then I got confused because didn't Braniac trap Lex on his ship? Which is how Lex was able to disable it? But then when the ship was about to self destruct and Superman flew it away I thought Lex/Superman were both going to die, but then Lex was suddenly somewhere else?

Oh, Lex infiltrated the Fortress of Solitude. The Brainiac Ship was in Washington D.C. before Superman pulled it into space. Lex is thousands of miles away.
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