Poll of the Day > Do you think Unions are a good thing or a bad thing overall?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Was discussing this with my wife this morning. Our state voted down a proposal to become a right to work state and to me it seems like both sides have a compelling argument.

Making people pay union dues even when they arent union seems wrong but the unions do give workers bargaining power and some employers certainly take advantage of employees when legally possible so unions can sometimes protect against that.

My wife was saying though that unions can make her job difficult since an employee can do their job poorly or wrong but it can be very difficult to terminate them from their position if they are a union member as opposed to a non-union person. Ive certainly heard about that happening before and it does seem wrong.

Ive never dealt with unions myself so Im coming from a mostly ignorant place, but it seems like an issue that just about everybody has strong opinions about. What does potd think about them?
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They served a good purpose once, but they can also do far more harm than good in the modern environment.

Ultimately, I think where a given union falls on the spectrum depends entirely on the union/industry. Some are much better or worse than others.


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My union is about to sign a damn fine 5 yr contract. I like how I have reps to cover my back if I get in a tiff with my employer. But the overall best thing about my union is the healthcare coverage. No co-pays. I'd give up raises to keep that in place.
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Unions are unnecessary when the law is properly formed.

Unions are good overall in areas with poor employee protections, but bad otherwise.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

They served a good purpose once, but they can also do far more harm than good in the modern environment.

Ultimately, I think where a given union falls on the spectrum depends entirely on the union/industry. Some are much better or worse than others.

Mostly where I fall on the issue, I have seen a lot of unions that are basically just a way for one or two people to make a shit ton of money while everyone in the actual union just gets shit (teachers unions, for example). They were useful 100 or so years ago when laws weren't in place to protect workers, but now more often then not they are just extortion scams with the workers as the victims.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

They served a good purpose once, but they can also do far more harm than good in the modern environment.

Much like any other activist movement, once the goals are accomplished the impetus is to then create more goals, or face extinction.

I would argue collective bargaining is inherently good, but in practice it appears a lot of unions do a lot of harm.

It made sense a hundred years ago when people were dying in building fires and shit, but it seems like unions are less necessary now.
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Dikitain posted...

ParanoidObsessive posted...

They served a good purpose once, but they can also do far more harm than good in the modern environment.

Ultimately, I think where a given union falls on the spectrum depends entirely on the union/industry. Some are much better or worse than others.

Mostly where I fall on the issue, I have seen a lot of unions that are basically just a way for one or two people to make a shit ton of money while everyone in the actual union just gets shit (teachers unions, for example). They were useful 100 or so years ago when laws weren't in place to protect workers, but now more often then not they are just extortion scams with the workers as the victims.

basically this it's like when russia became a ruthless totalitarian dictatorship for 100 years

also someone in a union can easily be fire, some guy who worked like 10 years got fired for being five minutes late from a lunch break

Good thing overall, but for shit low tier jobs they are nearly useless.

The union I was part of when I worked for Safeway did absolutely nothing good for myself or any other employee that actually did their job, but it greatly protected the garbage employees by effectively making it impossible to fire them unless they committed a crime. With the union fee, I was essentially getting paid less than minimum wage even before tax deductions just to support a union that only serves to protect those that made my job more difficult.
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Kinda torn on this matter. Like many have mentioned already. It protects employees from being taken advantage of by employers and gives them a voice but at the same time it protects the bad employees. Though I guess at the end of the day, a few bad apples (employees) is better than bad companies having their way.
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soviet union?
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Corporations aren't trustworthy enough to not have the damocles sword of collective bargaining
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Unions are unnecessary when the law is properly formed.

In theory, but in practice it's fairly difficult for legislators with no experience in the field in question to legislate it properly. As such, unions exist to let workers drive that regulation instead of leaving it up to people that have no idea what they're talking about.
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Unions were once a good thing, they've outlived their usefulness now and could go the way of the Dodo bird.
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adjl posted...

In theory, but in practice it's fairly difficult for legislators with no experience in the field in question to legislate it properly.

It's not hard to say "No, you can't work people 14 hours a day every day." or "Yes, your employees do get to take breaks and have holidays." or "You can't pay a skilled worker minimum wage."
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They're great. My medical is 5 bucks a week, and even add in my union dues and it's still inexpensive.
Throw on top of that this union job gives me vacation time, paid time off and sick time along with pay raises and this job has the best benefits by far.
I worked for the city, but earning those benefits were gonna be a huge pain. So, yes, unions are great.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

adjl posted...

In theory, but in practice it's fairly difficult for legislators with no experience in the field in question to legislate it properly.

It's not hard to say "No, you can't work people 14 hours a day every day." or "Yes, your employees do get to take breaks and have holidays." or "You can't pay a skilled worker minimum wage."

there were actually some guarantees for salaried workers during the end of the obama admin to keep them from working poverty wages but now the trump admin says work them as long as you want

Overall, bad. But then again Im about to work for a union so Ill prosbbly change my mind.

But I majored in Maritime Logistics and one of the subjects we covered was the expansion of the port here in Norfolk. Basically the union got involved and said that if the port didnt create jobs for union members at the expansion theyd slow down performance across the east coast. So because of the union the port isnt fully automated and is less efficient, all for a couple dozen union employees.

Union became obsolete when osha was created.
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I think that they're a neutral thing. The provide workers with much-needed rights and the ability to fight back against abusive employers; but they also can get run-away with power and make life miserable for otherwise-decent employers.
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Back in the time unions were popularized, they were completely necessary. Without union influence, companies could do whatever they wanted and it was horrible. Read Upton Sinclair's The Jungle for a good look at a pre-union factory.

However, everything unions once gave workers is now either signed into law, or at the very least, somewhere in normal corporate culture. Add a union to an existing company and you'll get fired. Join a union and you'll be charged dues for protections you don't actually need anymore. Unions are no longer a necessary evil. They're just evil.
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I had union on my previous job and i hated to pay union dues cause i never got anything useful out of it. But it was a shitty job anyway

Considering all the shit that goes on these days with shady work practices (firing people just before they qualify for a raise, keeping them below hours that would require them to pay benefits, etc.), unions are probably more needed now than they have been in almost 100 years.

When you chart income inequality and union power in the USA, the correlation is perfectly negative. Considering how "forgotten America" propelled Trump to the White House, it strikes me as a somewhat bitter irony that these "forgotten" people are busy rewarding the party that has spent the last few decades gutting their most reliable path to better job wages/benefits and more political power.
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Like anything, they're fine in moderation. They ruined England for a while, but without them people would still be getting fired for losing an arm at work and being unable to perform at their peak. That's arguably much worse.
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What the fuck, guys, onions are great.
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I've been a part of unions that genuinely cared about their members and I've been a part of unions where stewards and executives would step over your fallen corpse for an extra nickel in their paycheck. At the end of the day, I consider them a necessary evil.
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I guess it depends on the union.. Many were created with a clear benefit to it's workers but nowadays many are run like (and by) the mob and do more harm than good. Many of the construction/trade related unions where I'm from are essentially legal shakedowns
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How many people that hate union dues also hate paying taxes?
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pedro45 posted...

How many people that hate union dues also hate paying taxes?

Fun fact: The United States has never paid their UN dues, but they still take the coffee
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The only real experience I have with them is second hand with the UPS employees I've encountered and all those guys seem like they just got the best blowjob of their life before they left for work

Mead posted...

My wife was saying though that unions can make her job difficult since an employee can do their job poorly or wrong but it can be very difficult to terminate them from their position if they are a union member as opposed to a non-union person. Ive certainly heard about that happening before and it does seem wrong.

The rubber room policies for teachers unions are a perfect example, since some school districts would have suspended teachers (often accused sex offenders) receiving full pay while either performing light administrative work or functionally doing nothing. It's a process that usually drags on for years thanks to union protections that delay a judgment. Come to think of it, *most* egregious union stories involve teachers unions which, as far as unions go, are also the most superfluous anyway.

Mead posted...

Ive never dealt with unions myself so Im coming from a mostly ignorant place, but it seems like an issue that just about everybody has strong opinions about. What does potd think about them?

Most of people I've met over the years who have dealt with unions have spoken unfavorably of them (whereas most of the people who praised them not only hadn't worked union and, humorously enough, one of the biggest advocates was a guy who was still unsuccessfully struggled to get into one). This includes an aunt who was intimidated by union reps coming to her home and trespassing because they were pushing to unionize her workplace and she wasn't onboard, qualified young workers who fell victim to the last in/first out system (including teachers with greater qualifications than their peers with seniority), people who voted in unions for their workplaces, etc.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

They served a good purpose once, but they can also do far more harm than good in the modern environment.

Ultimately, I think where a given union falls on the spectrum depends entirely on the union/industry. Some are much better or worse than others.

This. And a large part of it has been the shift from private-sector unions (which were regulating legitimate safety issues, etc) to public sector unions which bloat taxpayer expenses while lowering the quality of those services.

ferko420 posted...

Union became obsolete when osha was created.

It certainly resolved a lot of the original underlying motivation for creating unions.

Sarcasthma posted...

What the fuck, guys, onions are great.

Except red onions, because fuck those troll onions.

pedro45 posted...

How many people that hate union dues also hate paying taxes?

Does anybody enjoy paying taxes?
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Zeus posted...

Come to think of it, *most* egregious union stories involve teachers unions which, as far as unions go, are also the most superfluous anyway.

There shouldn't even be public sector unions, or at the very least they need to be strongly limited in scope.

pedro45 posted...

How many people that hate union dues also hate paying taxes?

does anyone LIKE paying taxes?
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Questionmarktarius posted...

Zeus posted...

Come to think of it, *most* egregious union stories involve teachers unions which, as far as unions go, are also the most superfluous anyway.

There shouldn't even be public sector unions, or at the very least they need to be strongly limited in scope.

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Good overall, given the state of workers rights back when unions started becoming a thing.

I've never belonged to a union though, so I can't comment on them now.
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The only union jobs that I've worked I was glad that I had a group that had my back.
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Great thing about unions is job security

Bad thing about unions is job security for others
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

They served a good purpose once, but they can also do far more harm than good in the modern environment.

Ultimately, I think where a given union falls on the spectrum depends entirely on the union/industry. Some are much better or worse than others.

Basically was gonna right this.

They were absolutely required at one point, but those days are long gone. It doesn't mean they still can't do some good, but they can just as easily do a lot of bad.
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Smarkil posted...

pedro45 posted...

How many people that hate union dues also hate paying taxes?

does anyone LIKE paying taxes?

Yeah. Super affordable way to keep up your area/country. I've benefited greatly from it.
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pedro45 posted...

Smarkil posted...

pedro45 posted...

How many people that hate union dues also hate paying taxes?

does anyone LIKE paying taxes?

Yeah. Super affordable way to keep up your area/country. I've benefited greatly from it.

I don't have any issue paying taxes to live in a well maintained society

Unions rule
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1) Unions operate wildly different from each other
2) Across the board, the decline of unions has a directly correlation to declining wages, workers rights and benefits, and overall job moral
3) Speaking for myself, working conditions in the film and TV world already appear nightmarish to your average person. It'd be hell without unions in place.
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pedro45 posted...

Smarkil posted...

pedro45 posted...

How many people that hate union dues also hate paying taxes?

does anyone LIKE paying taxes?

Yeah. Super affordable way to keep up your area/country. I've benefited greatly from it.

tell that to the roads of CA
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