Poll of the Day > 28 y/o UGLY Indiana Teacher QUITS because he REFUSES to Acknowledge TRANS KIDS!

(+) Yeah! (+)

28 y/o Former Orchestra Teacher, John Kluge from Indiana said he was forced to QUIT because he refused to refer to transgender students by their preferred NAME rather than their birth name!!

He is citing his religious beliefs and constitutional rights being violated because he disagreed with the policy to refer to his transgender students by their name!!

The Pencil Neck said "I'm being compelled to encourage students in what i believe is something that's a dangerous lifestyle. I'm fine to teach students with other beliefs, but the fact that teachers are being compelled to speak a certain way is the scary thing. I am bound by god to refer to people as they truly are and i refuse to call someone something i know they aren't and it disturbs me that we are to accept these people as people they aren't"

Students must have written consent from a parent or doctor to request the name change

LGBTQ community advocates say it's a sign of respect and isn't about religion or politics as Sam Brinton said "This is not a request for advocacy. This is a request for respect"

He said he reached a compromise with the administration that allowed him to refer to all students by their LAST NAME but a few months ago said he would no longer be allowed to do that and said he would rather QUIT and live by the name of God than to work for something he says is wrong and shouldn't be "normalized"

He submitted a tentative resignation because officials threatened to fire him and said "They're acting as if i have resigned, even though i'm pleading No, i'm not dead yet. I still want to work there but i want my rights back"

He's worked there for 4 years and is now appealing the decision to get his job back despite resigning.

John said he loved serving the kids in the community and wants to keep teaching but said he is outraged that the school is unwilling to compromise something that most people consider is "common sense"

Do you have a problem referring to transgender people by their preferred name?

John - Beggar

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/06/06/02/4CF4E0F000000578-5808401-image-m-24_1528248782639.jpg

School -

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/06/06/02/4CF4E0EB00000578-5808401-image-a-25_1528248796266.jpg
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There is nothing in the Bible about calling a transgender person by the name they want to be called by. He's just a jackass.

He shouldn't have to compromise. The people who feel they have a special preferred name should be the ones making a compromise. It's stupid, and this is getting out of hand.
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samuricex posted...

The people who feel they have a special preferred name should be the ones making a compromise.

"Special preferred name"? You make it sound like it's a lot of work to use the desired name. It's literally a matter of saying "call me Sarah now instead of Sam," no different than any other name change in terms of the impact on other people.
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samuricex posted...

He shouldn't have to compromise. The people who feel they have a special preferred name should be the ones making a compromise. It's stupid, and this is getting out of hand.

What about kids that emigrate from other countries that adopt western names?
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It's just a name. People get name changes all the time. I don't remember anything in the bible about calling somebody the name they'd rather have. Even when I was in school, teachers asked kids if they had a nickname they'd rather be called. Lots of kids had names that could be shorten to other names like Sam, Max, Tom, Bob, etc. Those are the shortened names, btw.

HelIWithoutSin posted...

samuricex posted...

He shouldn't have to compromise. The people who feel they have a special preferred name should be the ones making a compromise. It's stupid, and this is getting out of hand.

What about kids that emigrate from other countries that adopt western names?

This, too. I had a Friend named Mina who adopted the name Nancy when she was younger. Though she does preferred to be called Mina now. And literally nobody had a problem with that...
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adjl posted...

samuricex posted...

The people who feel they have a special preferred name should be the ones making a compromise.

"Special preferred name"? You make it sound like it's a lot of work to use the desired name. It's literally a matter of saying "call me Sarah now instead of Sam," no different than any other name change in terms of the impact on other people.

The point is that if you want to change something about yourself, you're the one who has to compromise, not everyone else to accommodate you.
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samuricex posted...

adjl posted...

samuricex posted...

The people who feel they have a special preferred name should be the ones making a compromise.

"Special preferred name"? You make it sound like it's a lot of work to use the desired name. It's literally a matter of saying "call me Sarah now instead of Sam," no different than any other name change in terms of the impact on other people.

The point is that if you want to change something about yourself, you're the one who has to the compromise, not everyone else to accommodate you.

You're acting like it's hard to call someone a different name. And it's not. Just call them what they want to be called...
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Is it actually against any religion to call someone by a name that wasn't on their birth certificate when they were born? I guess anyone who's ever referred to the 42nd President as Bill Clinton is going to hell.
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he's not ugly. he looks normal. just cause he made you mad, doesn't make him ugly.

LinkPizza posted...

samuricex posted...

adjl posted...

samuricex posted...

The people who feel they have a special preferred name should be the ones making a compromise.

"Special preferred name"? You make it sound like it's a lot of work to use the desired name. It's literally a matter of saying "call me Sarah now instead of Sam," no different than any other name change in terms of the impact on other people.

The point is that if you want to change something about yourself, you're the one who has to the compromise, not everyone else to accommodate you.

You're acting like it's hard to call someone a different name. And it's not. Just call them what they want to be called...

No thanks, I'm good.
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What a bitch
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samuricex posted...

LinkPizza posted...

samuricex posted...

adjl posted...

samuricex posted...

The people who feel they have a special preferred name should be the ones making a compromise.

"Special preferred name"? You make it sound like it's a lot of work to use the desired name. It's literally a matter of saying "call me Sarah now instead of Sam," no different than any other name change in terms of the impact on other people.

The point is that if you want to change something about yourself, you're the one who has to the compromise, not everyone else to accommodate you.

You're acting like it's hard to call someone a different name. And it's not. Just call them what they want to be called...

No thanks, I'm good.

It would be the same thing if someone wanted to be called Sam instead of Samantha or Samuel. Or Max instead of Maxine or Maximillian...
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LinkPizza posted...

samuricex posted...

LinkPizza posted...

samuricex posted...

adjl posted...

samuricex posted...

The people who feel they have a special preferred name should be the ones making a compromise.

"Special preferred name"? You make it sound like it's a lot of work to use the desired name. It's literally a matter of saying "call me Sarah now instead of Sam," no different than any other name change in terms of the impact on other people.

The point is that if you want to change something about yourself, you're the one who has to the compromise, not everyone else to accommodate you.

You're acting like it's hard to call someone a different name. And it's not. Just call them what they want to be called...

No thanks, I'm good.

It would be the same thing if someone wanted to be called Sam instead of Samantha or Samuel. Or Max instead of Maxine or Maximillian...

I would say its more Samuel wanting to be called Maxine in this case. Regardless, I personally dont care. What I care about is a teacher being forced to resign over it. That should be the big issue here, not someone being called by their legal name...
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Full Throttle posted...

He said he reached a compromise with the administration that allowed him to refer to all students by their LAST NAME but a few months ago said he would no longer be allowed to do that and said he would rather QUIT and live by the name of God than to work for something he says is wrong and shouldn't be "normalized"

He's standing up for what he believes in. That's commendable I guess.

Full Throttle posted...

He's worked there for 4 years and is now appealing the decision to get his job back despite resigning.

LMAO, nevermind.
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Some teacher in my area is facing prison time because one of her students banged her. She's actually pretty hot...

https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/woman-tells-judge-student-sex-case-felt-trapped-teacher-life/0XP3tsyOEpth2ojQbsYHOK/
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samuricex posted...

LinkPizza posted...

samuricex posted...

LinkPizza posted...

samuricex posted...

adjl posted...

samuricex posted...

The people who feel they have a special preferred name should be the ones making a compromise.

"Special preferred name"? You make it sound like it's a lot of work to use the desired name. It's literally a matter of saying "call me Sarah now instead of Sam," no different than any other name change in terms of the impact on other people.

The point is that if you want to change something about yourself, you're the one who has to the compromise, not everyone else to accommodate you.

You're acting like it's hard to call someone a different name. And it's not. Just call them what they want to be called...

No thanks, I'm good.

It would be the same thing if someone wanted to be called Sam instead of Samantha or Samuel. Or Max instead of Maxine or Maximillian...

I would say its more Samuel wanting to be called Maxine in this case. Regardless, I personally dont care. What I care about is a teacher being forced to resign over it. That should be the big issue here, not someone being called by their legal name...

Sure. Its a big issue... that was easily resolved by calling someone a different name... Which is an ok thing to do. People get their names changed, sometimes... He didnt have to quit.
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Full Throttle posted...

Do you have a problem referring to trans people by their preferred name?

Not really. I may slip up now and then if I've known them for years and then they suddenly have a new name but in general I call folk whatever they wish to be called. It's no different to folk who have different versions of their name such as Anthony or Tony.
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He should have waited for them to fire him then sued for wrongful termination.

I'm being compelled to encourage students in what i believe is something that's a dangerous lifestyle. I'm fine to teach students with other beliefs, but the fact that teachers are being compelled to speak a certain way is the scary thing.

He should have just stuck with this. Bringing religion and politics into the matter obscures the real problem. If "this is a request for respect" as the advocates claim then you respect someone by not encouraging them in something you find harmful.
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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

He should have waited for them to fire him then sued for wrongful termination.

I'm being compelled to encourage students in what i believe is something that's a dangerous lifestyle. I'm fine to teach students with other beliefs, but the fact that teachers are being compelled to speak a certain way is the scary thing.

He should have just stuck with this. Bringing religion and politics into the matter obscures the real problem. If "this is a request for respect" as the advocates claim then you respect someone by not encouraging them in something you find harmful.

How is it harmful, though.
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LinkPizza posted...

How is it harmful, though.

Encouraging their delusion denies them the help they need. They feel like they don't belong. Maybe they think their body is not really theirs. It's not respectful to say they're right. Instead we should tell them it's okay to be different. That being non-typical doesn't make them something else, it just means the stereotypes are wrong. The advocates let them think that the problem is with them when it's really with the image they compare themselves to and the tools they use to analyze it.
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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

LinkPizza posted...

How is it harmful, though.

Encouraging their delusion denies them the help they need. They feel like they don't belong. Maybe they think their body is not really theirs. It's not respectful to say they're right. Instead we should tell them it's okay to be different. That being non-typical doesn't make them something else, it just means the stereotypes are wrong. The advocates let them think that the problem is with them when it's really with the image they compare themselves to and the tools they use to analyze it.

Like you and everyone else actually care about other people's body disphoria. You don't understand, or like it, so you feel the need to suppress it.
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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

Encouraging their delusion denies them the help they need.

Except transitioning is typically not done without consulting medical professionals, who make that recommendation only if it's what's most likely to be beneficial for their specific case. In many cases, acceptance is the help they need. Like any medical decision, that's not guaranteed to be the right treatment, but if you actually care about someone, you take your concerns about their treatment to their doctor, rather than refusing to cooperate with the treatment so they get bombarded with mixed messages.

It doesn't matter how much "this is for their own good" transphobes spout, it's not going to change that that's nothing more than a self-righteous justification for being uncomfortable with the idea and deciding that they know better than doctors. I don't know if transitioning will end up being the gold standard for treating gender dysphoria. Nobody does. For now, though, it's what we've got, so shut up and let science do its job, cooperating with doctors as much as is necessary to help science along while it figures out how best to proceed.
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Cold_Dreamerz posted...

Like you and everyone else actually care about other people's body disphoria. You don't understand, or like it, so you feel the need to suppress it.

It's not necessary to care, or understand, or like it in order to recognize that the current approach dismisses one delusion by by convincing them of another. They can change the outward appearance of their body to fit a different set of norms but that doesn't change basic biology.

adjl posted...

Except transitioning is typically not done without consulting medical professionals, who make that recommendation only if it's what's most likely to be beneficial for their specific case. In many cases, acceptance is the help they need.

It's not clear in the article if the student was going through procedures, or just going by a preferred name. If the medial professionals have the same mindset as the school in this story then they're of no help to their patients. A counselor who councils ignorance betrays their station. Letting them think gender transitioning is possible in a medical sense is lying to them.
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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

Encouraging their delusion denies them the help they need. They feel like they don't belong.

But denying them the right that they have to change can also be harmful. You say that they feel like they don't belong. But by not calling them the name they want to be called can also give that this feeling. Or treating them like they want to be treated. It can feel like you're treating them different. Sometimes, it doesn't matter if you are of aren't because that's how they'll feel...
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Muhammad Ali

All throughout school I was called by a nickname instead of my real name, because my parents called me that when i was a baby. In fact, when I got to like 11th grade I seriously wanted to be called my real name but nobody would because ever since I was in 1st grade I was always, always called by the nickname, teachers and students alike.

but yeah lets act like with trans people you HAVE to call them by their birth name. You're totally willing to call others whatever they want though.

I'm of two minds. On the one hand, legit trans kids probably feel bad enough and it's not a big deal to be nice. On the other, there are also fakers. The end result is that it's better to just go along with it as long as nobody is getting hurt.
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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

It's not clear in the article if the student was going through procedures, or just going by a preferred name.

Standard procedure is to have the patient live as their target gender for a couple years before beginning any physical transition, to see if transitioning is actually going to be beneficial for them before doing anything irreversible. It is unclear whether the name change here was recommended by a doctor or undertaken by the person themselves as a means of experimenting with their identity, but I don't see that that really makes a difference. Trying out different identities is a perfectly normal, healthy part of adolescence, and part of teaching adolescent students is respecting that. If a kid wants to change their name, who are you to tell them they can't?

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

Letting them think gender transitioning is possible in a medical sense is lying to them.

Oh really? Do elaborate on what is so impossible about transitioning that it means doctors are lying to their patients (which, incidentally, would subject those doctors to lawsuits if it could be proven that they knowingly lied to their patients, so if you have such conclusive proof, you might want to hook up a lawyer buddy with some juicy legal fees).
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LinkPizza posted...

But denying them the right that they have to change can also be harmful. You say that they feel like they don't belong. But by not calling them the name they want to be called can also give that this feeling. Or treating them like they want to be treated. It can feel like you're treating them different. Sometimes, it doesn't matter if you are of aren't because that's how they'll feel...

I don't want to quote item by item this once. Feel free to apply my comments where relevant.
Yes, they have the right to undergo elective cosmetic procedures. I'm not saying you take that away from them. They don't have the right to compel another person's speech nor to compel another person's behavior. No one has the authority to tell someone what name to call them or how to treat them if that other person isn't inclined to do so. Being trans doesn't give someone special rights above what anyone else has. One person has the civic right to request what they are called or how they are treated. The civic rights of that person ends at another persons civic right to refuse that request.

argonautweakend posted...

lets act like with trans people you HAVE to call them by their birth name.

This doesn't address the core issue. Whether it's a teacher ordered to address the student by their preferred name, or an advocated ordered to address a trans person by their birth name. It's the same thing. It's claiming the authority to tell one person what they can or can't say to another person.

adjl posted...

see if transitioning is actually going to be beneficial for them before doing anything irreversible.

This is an excellent point. In my understanding a big factor in this is how they participate in society and how other people react to them. But not everyone is going to be accepting of the transition. By forcing others to treat these people a certain way the experience from such a trial period won't be an authentic one and could give them a false impression of what life would be like after doing anything irreversible.

adjl posted...

Trying out different identities is a perfectly normal, healthy part of adolescence, and part of teaching adolescent students is respecting that.

Not all identities are normal or healthy. Killing small animals or watching things burn aren't indicative of identities that are respected by society nor should adolescents be encouraged to try them out. There are some identities that society discourages because they are either harmful to the individual or the rest of society.

adjl posted...

If a kid wants to change their name, who are you to tell them they can't?

Answer: No one.
Who are they to tell anyone which name to addressees them with?

adjl posted...

Oh really? Do elaborate on what is so impossible about transitioning that it means doctors are lying to their patients

If a man says he's a T-Rex does that make him a T-Rex?
If a man widens his mouth, shortens his arms, and has surgery to implant a prosthetic tail does that make him a T-Rex?
If a woman says she's a male, does that make her a male?
If a woman takes hormones that are wrong for her body and has elective cosmetic surgery does that make her a male?
No, the woman is as much a male as she is a T-Rex.
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Remember when people said kids were the line for transgenderism and that they can't make those kinds of decisions?

Look where we are now.
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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

I don't want to quote item by item this once. Feel free to apply my comments where relevant.
Yes, they have the right to undergo elective cosmetic procedures. I'm not saying you take that away from them. They don't have the right to compel another person's speech nor to compel another person's behavior. No one has the authority to tell someone what name to call them or how to treat them if that other person isn't inclined to do so. Being trans doesn't give someone special rights above what anyone else has. One person has the civic right to request what they are called or how they are treated. The civic rights of that person ends at another persons civic right to refuse that request.

You are right hat nobody has the authority to call someone by a certain name. But that means I can call a guy named Thomas by a different name. And I can call him Jacob instead. It doesnt make it right. Im not saying that get special permission. Im saying be a human being and call them by the a different name. As we said, people can go by different names. Whether its because they have a more Western name because theyre from a different country, or changing genders, or are in the process of getting a name change for any reason.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

Answer: No one.
Who are they to tell anyone which name to addressees them with?

Most normal people would say the name holder. Its there name. If people want to know what to call them, its up to that person. It you want to be call Max instead of Maximillian, its up to Maximillian to make that decision. If you want to be call James instead of William, its also up to them...
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LinkPizza posted...

Most normal people would say the name holder. Its there name.

Yes, it's their name. They have ownership of it. But it's the other person's speech. Someone else has ownership of addressing them.
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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

LinkPizza posted...

Most normal people would say the name holder. Its there name.

Yes, it's their name. They have ownership of it. But it's the other person's speech. Someone else has ownership of addressing them.

Yeah. You dont have control over someones speech. But thats why people usually ask the other person their name or what they would like to be called. Because some people are decent human beings...
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LinkPizza posted...

Because some people are decent human beings...

This bring our discussion back to points I made earlier. Is it decent to lie to someone? As adjl posted the trans person may be going through a trial period to see if transitioning is really the solution to their problem. Is it decent to give them encouragement in regard to a procedure that reinforces a lie?

LGBTQ community advocates say it's a sign of respect and isn't about religion or politics. Putting gender identity aside, putting preferred names aside, and putting identity politics in general aside, a sign of respect is to tell them the truth.
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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

LGBTQ community advocates say it's a sign of respect and isn't about religion or politics. Putting gender identity aside, putting preferred names aside, and putting identity politics in general aside, a sign of respect is to tell them the truth.

Sometimes, but telling someone the truth is often used to insult people you don't like. Everyone knows at least one asshole who says whatever they want and justifies it with "I'm just telling the truth!" Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't, but no one asked for your opinion! That's not respect, that's just using a flimsy excuse to get away with being a jerk.
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Golden Road posted...

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

LGBTQ community advocates say it's a sign of respect and isn't about religion or politics. Putting gender identity aside, putting preferred names aside, and putting identity politics in general aside, a sign of respect is to tell them the truth.

Sometimes, but telling someone the truth is often used to insult people you don't like. Everyone knows at least one asshole who says whatever they want and justifies it with "I'm just telling the truth!" Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't, but no one asked for your opinion! That's not respect, that's just using a flimsy excuse to get away with being a jerk.

This is true.

But another point to consider is if it really is considered a lie. Someone asking to be called something else doesnt seem like lie, tbh.

Also, to call them by their preferred name would actually be the way to show them respect.
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Golden Road posted...

Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't, but no one asked for your opinion!

Yes, telling someone the truth isn't always a sign of respect. The truth could be that someone has no respect for you and says as much. I still hold that it's more respectful that persisting with a lie. In this specific case from the article I don't think the teacher had a lack of personal respect for the student. Someone did ask his opinion by asking for his compliance. He didn't want his silence to be taken as consent or encouragement for something that is against his principles.

LinkPizza posted...

Also, to call them by their preferred name would actually be the way to show them respect.

Usually calling a boy by a typical girl's name is used as an insult. I imagine girls would find the reverse equally mocking. If someone actually requests that you do this how much of the action is going to come from a place of respect to do so?
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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

By forcing others to treat these people a certain way the experience from such a trial period won't be an authentic one and could give them a false impression of what life would be like after doing anything irreversible.

Clearly, the answer is for everyone to stop being assholes about it, so that sheltering them from assholes while in school ends up being reflective of the real world. Cultural shift, yo. Get cracking.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

Not all identities are normal or healthy.

They are indeed not. Effectively raising children - whether as a parent, teacher, or any other formative figure - entails encouraging and respecting healthy exploration of new identities while guiding them away from unhealthy ones. The distinction requires a solid basis for considering those identities to be unhealthy, though. Conveniently, there's a whole field of medicine dedicated to figuring that out. Maybe people should defer to what that field says instead of deciding they know better?

For the record, I fully support the idea of teachers recommending that students struggling with their gender identity speak to a doctor about it instead of experimenting unguided, in the event that a kid has chosen to try out a different gender without talking to a doctor first. When identity disorders come into play, it's a good idea to involve a doctor in exploring one's identity.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

Who are they to tell anyone which name to addressees them with?

They are literally the only person who has that authority.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

If a man says he's a T-Rex does that make him a T-Rex?
If a man widens his mouth, shortens his arms, and has surgery to implant a prosthetic tail does that make him a T-Rex?
If a woman says she's a male, does that make her a male?
If a woman takes hormones that are wrong for her body and has elective cosmetic surgery does that make her a male?
No, the woman is as much a male as she is a T-Rex.

Depends how you define each of those latter states. There are many aspects of masculinity which can indeed be quite closely approximated by behavioural and surgical changes that are well within the realm of modern medicine's capabilities. Authentic T-rexitude, however, is far beyond our current capabilities, and it is unlikely that that will ever change given the widespread destruction a close facsimile of a T-rex would cause if unleashed in society.
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If you think that it's generally right to refer to a person by their chosen name when it's different from their birth name, I'm not sure what good reason you have not to refer to a trans person by their chosen name. You could say, "But we have to be able to tell from a person's name what their biological sex is!", but I hope nobody thinks that's a good reason. And we already seem to accept that people can go by nicknames like Alex that can apply to either sex.

adjl posted...

Clearly, the answer is for everyone to stop being assholes about it, so that sheltering them from assholes while in school ends up being reflective of the real world.

C V
It's claiming the authority to tell one person what they can or can't say to another person.
Plus, I don't think it's being an asshole to say that approximating the appearance of a man or a woman doesn't actually make you one if you weren't already.

adjl posted...

They are literally the only person who has that authority.

C V
Yes, it's their name. They have ownership of it. But it's the other person's speech. Someone else has ownership of addressing them.
Directing speech at a person doesn't transfer ownership of the speech.

adjl posted...

Conveniently, there's a whole field of medicine dedicated to figuring that out. Maybe people should defer to what that field says instead of deciding they know better?

That's surrendering a lot of personal responsibility to academics. Academics who get research money based on how useful their findings will be to the current political climate and other interest groups. Academics who risk their careers if someone on social media thinks their findings are racist, sexist, or "something"phobic. Academics who themselves may subscribe to certain ideologies. It would be wise to consider their findings but not to put total faith in them.

adjl posted...

Depends how you define each of those latter states.

I define them in biological terms. Gender difference exist to facilitate procreation. Each gender has a carrier agent that is used to pass on their genes to the next generation and each type of carrier agent is specific to that gender.

However current identity politics puts forth that there are no biological gender difference. Gender is social construct that can be defined any way that is convenient for the moment.
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Yeah I think it should be like a sign of respect.
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Misclicked. Voted for option 2 instead of 3. It has nothing to do with trans. If a guy named Robert goes by Bob or Bert I am not going to start calling him Robert to be an asset. Likewise I have known many people to go by a nickname or a middle name and it costs me nothing to use that name.
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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

It's claiming the authority to tell one person what they can or can't say to another person.

You're one of those people that thinks freedom of speech means freedom from consequence, aren't you.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

Yes, it's their name. They have ownership of it. But it's the other person's speech. Someone else has ownership of addressing them.
Directing speech at a person doesn't transfer ownership of the speech.

And as the owner of the name, they have full rights to not answer to somebody who refuses to get their name right. In a school setting, however, that refusal has the potential to significantly hurt their grades. Ergo this guy was pressured to quit so he couldn't keep infringing on this student's rights to own their name. Maybe he shouldn't have been such a dink.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

That's surrendering a lot of personal responsibility to academics.

When the alternative is making decisions on academic matters without conducting research? I don't really see that being a bad thing. You are defending the practice of making up your own scientific conclusions because you don't trust the actual scientists because reasons. That's the kind of mentality that has bred anti-vaxxers, homeopathy, and Goop. You should not be defending that practice. Nobody should.

Should academic discourse be accepted without any sort of critical thinking? Of course not. But that attitude must be applied equally to all alternatives as well. If you decide ahead of time which side you want the science to be on, and hold competing views to higher standards than that one, you're never going to end up with the truth.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

I define them in biological terms.

People exist in more than biological terms. That's what it means to be sentient.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

Gender difference exist to facilitate procreation.

Not anymore they don't. There are ample ways in today's world to effect procreation without relying on one's own sexual dimorphism, and that's even without considering that a good many people have no interest in procreating in the first place. If everyone on the planet suddenly became trans and gave up their fertility to have a sex change? Yeah, the species would have a problem (at least for the 10-15 years it'd take to develop fully-functional artificial reproduction methods). But that's not particularly likely, so who cares about the impact it has on procreational ability?

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

However current identity politics puts forth that there are no biological gender difference. Gender is social construct that can be defined any way that is convenient for the moment.

You seem to be having considerable difficulty understanding the difference between "sex" and "gender" as they are used in the modern vernacular. Sex refers to the biological aspects of sexual dimorphism, gender to the psychological and social aspects. Of course the social aspects can be redefined as needed, because that's how any sort of social construct works.
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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

It's claiming the authority to tell one person what they can or can't say to another person

We already have that. Try becoming a teacher and telling kindergarteners Santa isn't real or God does or doesn't exist. Try swearing or teaching them about sex. See how long your job lasts.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

Yes, it's their name. They have ownership of it. But it's the other person's speech. Someone else has ownership of addressing them

Does the student have the right to ignore the teacher because they are talking to someone with a different name? If a teacher gives the student a failing grade for ignoring them did the teacher infringe on the students right?
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adjl posted...

You're one of those people that thinks freedom of speech means freedom from consequence, aren't you.

No.

adjl posted...

And as the owner of the name, they have full rights to not answer to somebody who refuses to get their name right.

To address this the teacher had been calling students by their last name. A name that was not in dispute by anyone.

adjl posted...

When the alternative is making decisions on academic matters without conducting research?

That's clearly not what I was advocating and I think you're being willfully disingenuous here.

adjl posted...

Not anymore they don't.

Regardless of if we don't put it to use or find a technological work around to reach the same result the reason for something to exist doesn't change. The written language and texting doesn't remove the purpose for the ability to speak. Someone could choose to not have children. The reason they have the ability to do so will remain.

adjl posted...

who cares about the impact it has on procreational ability?

Well I don't. I was responding to your comment about how genders are defined.

adjl posted...

You seem to be having considerable difficulty understanding the difference between "sex" and "gender" as they are used in the modern vernacular. Sex refers to the biological aspects of sexual dimorphism, gender to the psychological and social aspects.

That's not the the modern vernacular. You're referring to specialized terminology that has been used in an Orwellian manner. Controlling how people think by controlling the language they use. The average person wouldn't associate sex with anatomical distinctions. They would associate it with an action that results in procreation.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Remember when people said kids were the line for transgenderism and that they can't make those kinds of decisions?

Look where we are now.

Well as long as they arent taking hormone treatments or getting surgery

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

To address this the teacher had been calling students by their last name. A name that was not in dispute by anyone.

And then the administration chose not to accept that anymore, presumably because some kids didn't like it. Furthermore, nobody's name should ever even be in dispute in the first place, so the idea of there being a "name that was not in dispute" should be completely moot.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

That's clearly not what I was advocating and I think you're being willfully disingenuous here.

You certainly seem to think that your opinion is more valid than that of doctors and psychologists, without comparable credentials. Skepticism can be healthy, certainly, but not when you have more reason to trust science than not. Otherwise, you get anti-vaxxers.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

the reason for something to exist doesn't change.

Nothing biological exists for a reason. There is no purpose or goal involved in the natural world. It simply is. Traits can be associated with certain functions, but that does not mean they can never be co-opted into other functions (in fact, that happens all the time in evolution), nor does it mean that function must always be fulfilled as long as that trait exists (see: the entire concept of vestigial structures). To conflate function with "meaning" is to fundamentally misunderstanding the natural world.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

Well I don't. I was responding to your comment about how genders are defined.

You define something you care about based on criteria you don't care about? That makes little sense.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

That's not the the modern vernacular.

It's how the langauge is evolving. With the growing acceptance that there's a distinction between the physical and mental aspects of sexual dimorphism, and the fading aversion to using the word "is increasingly being adopted to refer to the mental part. It works quite well; there's really no reason not to accept this shift.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

You're referring to specialized terminology that has been used in an Orwellian manner. Controlling how people think by controlling the language they use.

Linguistic evolution is an example of Orwellian population-wide brainwashing. Right. That's totally not a ridiculous thing to say.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

The average person wouldn't associate sex with anatomical distinctions.

It's the biological definition. Why insist on applying such a definition earlier but refuse to do so here?
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LinkPizza posted...

This is true.

But another point to consider is if it really is considered a lie. Someone asking to be called something else doesnt seem like lie, tbh.

Also, to call them by their preferred name would actually be the way to show them respect.

Well it should go both ways. They shouldn't expect people to call them by their preferred name too. Somebody should do it just to be nice but shouldn't be expected to.
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Wah I'm religious and am offended. Wah I'm transgender and all shall respect me.

People are stupid and its the news.

There will be no questions at this time.
Opinions only.
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