Board 8 > Scarlet Ranks 150 User-Nominated Wrestlers

(+) Yeah! (+)

I guess the question is what happened before Khali came in? Obviously Orton had an injured arm which was a handicap but assuming they were supposed to get out of the walls he was a bit a ways ahead of Jinder. Heck, what even is the rules of that type of cage match instead of me assuming?
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WickIebee posted...

I guess the question is what happened before Khali came in? Obviously Orton had an injured arm which was a handicap but assuming they were supposed to get out of the walls he was a bit a ways ahead of Jinder. Heck, what even is the rules of that type of cage match instead of me assuming?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE7c54TNIUk" data-time="
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The only way to win is to escape both cages. You have a limited amount of time to get out of the first cage.

And even with the handicap, people would have still believed Jinder would lose. Jinder is THAT far behind Orton in terms of kayfabe strength. Remember, Jinder had been on a 6-month losing streak up until a month before this.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

The only way to win is to escape both cages. You have a limited amount of time to get out of the first cage.

And even with the handicap, people would have still believed Jinder would lose. Jinder is THAT far behind Orton in terms of kayfabe strength. Remember, Jinder had been on a 6-month losing streak up until a month before this.

And before that, his only notable appearance was beating Heath Slater to get his job back with the WWE.

And before that, he was fired for two or three years.

And just before that, we had the amazing WeeLC match.

And just before that....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGbXraf3yXA" data-time="
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Matt Taven's greatest wrestling accomplishment is being the best part of the horrid, ghastly, embarrassing Kingdom vs Anderson/Gallows series in New Japan a couple years ago.

Never have any interest in seeing the guy wrestle but he will always have my respect for bumping around like a crazy man and attempting to make those matches watchable.
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It's too bad that, while he tried to make something watchable, he didn't make his commentary listen-able.
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No culture scarlet. None.
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v_charon posted...

No culture scarlet. None.

I just want to point out that he stopped saying that right around the time he posted pictures of Nakamura and went on veiled racist rants for a couple weeks. Curious...
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#138 - Bryan Alvarez Nominated by: Voltch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5AWX8uapKo" data-time="

As you can see, I have no love for Bryan Alvarez. Sure, Dave Meltzer is almost comically bad at maintaining a coherent line of thought from time to time, but Dave's forte does not lie in the realm of speaking. Dave is an historian at his core, and he actually does present a massive quantity of information well from time to time. Some people just require some organization of their thoughts; I understand why Dave's mannerisms irk so many, but in all honesty it doesn't irritate me like Bryan Alvarez's standard commentary.

While Bryan was a professional wrestler, I've never felt that Bryan's wrestling background lends any insight into his rants. So often, Bryan hates everything he watches. Sure, it might be more entertaining to dial up one's opinions beyond what they reasonably might be, but Bryan is sure to capture the je ne sais quoi of the jaded and cynical wrestling "fan." Too often with Dave, he just agrees with Dave and then, on an Observer Live, decides to lambaste the things that Dave already states were positive. Bryan just utterly dislikes everything and thinks everyone is a "geek." If someone ever goes over, the other person is clearly worthless and jobbed out completely and can never be salvaged.

It doesn't help that guys like Vinny come along and serve as Yes Men to Bryan. Too often, Bryan is propped up in bizarre opinions because his cronies only reinforce his bad habits. When Dave likes something, he may not emote as much as some would wish, but he clearly has a true passion for the business and just wants to see the workers succeed and have safe and productive careers. I'm not sure what Bryan wants. Somewhere along the line, it stopped being fun for him and started being a job.

That said, I enjoy his old Nitro reviews and listen to them every week because his current schtick is to hate current product and only enjoy old shit, so from a retro review standpoint, I can much more easily set down and appreciate shows from a historical perspective.
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#137 - Enzo Amore Nominated by: paulg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAG6udmdbv8" data-time="

I can't reasonably rate Enzo Amore any higher than this; despite his ability to cut a decent promo, the man is accused of sexual assault and he stupidly did not even inform WWE of the incident. I mean, it was clear for a long time that he had become a mark for himself and he would constantly end up on TMZ where is bizarre partying habits made Brian Pillman seem positively docile in comparison. He would insult so many people outside of the ring and apparently became such an irritant that Roman Reigns had to lead a collective of disgruntled wrestlers in a movement to see him thrown off of a tour bus. He also was kicked out of the dressing room, and Neville pretty much bounced from WWE as a results of Enzo existing.

So as a human being, Enzo has not proven to be made up of sterling stuff.

But as a wrestler, he honestly isn't much better. Despite spending years on the roster in NXT and WWE, he never really clicked as an actual competitor. Perhaps that is why the Big Cass and Enzo feud turned out so horribly dull. Enzo himself was clearly a rag doll for bigger guys, and in the Cruiserweight Division itself, I think he really proved to be exactly the problem with the division. While characters certainly can get over (Drew Gulak did a fantastic job making something out of what was, on paper, a very strange premise), 205 Live was meant to hearken back to the days of WCW's cruiserweights. Instead, it slowly became more and more focused on characters, and Enzo as champion really proved that to be the case. 205 Live was really going through an identity crisis, and Enzo only exacerbated the situation.

Of course, fans of Enzo would expect me to rave about his promos. But, and I fear the standard ire I get for saying this stuff, but rarely did Enzo's promos go anywhere. He made the very best out of scripted material (his ridiculous look really played into his ridiculous lines well), but it was scripted nonetheless. Despite the quality of the feud, at least Enzo's promos propped up the Big Cass-Enzo storyline virtually on their own. But for nearly a year prior to that, Enzo was so formulaic that I found it distasteful. I'm a guy, you come to me, you deliver the same promo for more than a month, I get bored. The difference between The Rock and Enzo is that The Rock shook up his promos by having his character interact with others. The Rock was, of course, actually allowed to simply say what he wanted, and Enzo was not. That was maybe the difference maker, I guess; Dwayne was able to develop his character thanks to outside stimuli from his opponents, and Enzo was virtually a solo act since his opponents hardly ever said anything to him, and when they did, he wasn't given the opportunity to respond as if he was even listening.

Part of a good feud is call and response. Much like an Enzo promo by itself. There's call and response. But in storytelling, the response is the key. The response is how you develop and character. Enzo never was given the opportunity to develop because his catchphrases were the only thing he really had. By the time he could have started to develop, he had coincidentally developed bad habits outside of the ring, making his in-ring and mic work less appealing. And those habits led to his downfall.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

I enjoy his old Nitro reviews and listen to them every week because his current schtick is to hate current product and only enjoy old shit, so from a retro review standpoint, I can much more easily set down and appreciate shows from a historical perspective.

You haven't listened to any of the retro reviews in a while I take it ha ha.
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Lopen posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

I enjoy his old Nitro reviews and listen to them every week because his current schtick is to hate current product and only enjoy old shit, so from a retro review standpoint, I can much more easily set down and appreciate shows from a historical perspective.

You haven't listened to any of the retro reviews in a while I take it ha ha.

Oh, he's into a terrible era of Nitro. I can't disagree with what he hates right now. But the Raws are getting more positive.
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Honestly think you're too hard on Alvarez all things said.

I do think he picks weird things to focus on (positive and negative) fairly often, but I don't think "overly negative" is something I'd agree describes him. I think he gives props to the good stuff pretty reliably-- yeah there's a lot of negativity there but anyone who isn't TheRock1525 is going to have a lot of negative things to say about WWE for the last several years on any given show.

My only real issue with the guy is he'll often neglect to mention things I found very glaring as it relates to the big picture in favor of little stuff. Too often I get the feeling he isn't earnestly watching the show and is just trying to fill a review.

Vinny is a bit of a yes man though. Filthy Four Daily with Bryan and Tom is generally more entertaining I think and shows what he can do with a cohost that actually cares about watching the show and can talk.
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Admittedly I don't listen to Filthy Four, only because I just don't have enough time in the day.
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#136 - Dan Matha Nominated by: JONA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M85Y1KpqDms" data-time="

The sad and fruitless tale of Dan Matha truly permeates the hearts and souls of every wrestling fan with the gripping narrative and the ultimate moment of despondence and tragedy.

Over a year ago, NXT began airing video packages of a Nathan Jones lookalike - a large, bald, backne-riddled strongman with little to no charisma - with the threat that he was "Coming Soon." In an era of Braun Strowman, it seemed only logical that we would see a new rise of copycat characters without the X Factor that made Braun enjoyable, and here was one and he was, as the video said so eloquently said, "coming." And this coming, as it were, would be "soon."

The threats mounted against fans for weeks until Matha, in all of his musclebound steroid-addled glory emerged on the entrance ramp for his debut match. Here he was, this man no one really wanted to see, coming to bore us with a squash like every NXT monster heel before. And we were going to - OH MY GOD! SAMOA JOE!

Samoa Joe, the top heel of the company at the time, stomped out of the backand completely destroyed Matha's debut. He followed this up with my favorite Samoa Joe promo in NXT, where he shouted "REEEEEEEEEGAAAAAAAAAAAAL!" into a microphone, essentially ransoming the entirety of NXT unless he got the title match he felt he so richly deserved. And Dan Matha NEVER. SHOWED. UP. AGAIN.

Dan Matha, and to a lesser extent the Ealy Brothers dealt with the same thing, was menaced by a terrorist. His career cut short, he disappeared suddenly and without fanfare, an unpromising future ruined at the ends of a veteran with aspirations of grandeur in his eyes. Who knows how far Matha could have gone? Maybe two or even three televised matches before he failed to catch fire and was future endeavored? What a career that could have been!

In truth, Samoa Joe's heel ruin in NXT was utterly hilarious and this segment in particular tickled me to no end. But I really have no reason to rank this guy any higher than this.
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I'm surprised he ranked this high.
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Kinda surprised he ranked that low. Is this list trying to be objective to some degree or something? Like I figured there'd be more wrestlers you dislike than a random big guy who did what he needed to one time and was never seen again.

Unless those promo videos were annoying I guess.
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I mean, I objectively was totally turned off by the videos.

But the segment was great.
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#135 - Boogeyman Nominated by: Johnbobb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9i2ZUdSaBw" data-time="

While the Boogeyman is certainly unique, I can't honestly claim to appreciate him in the ring. Conceptually, he was Finn Balor without the flair of, well, Finn Balor. And, of course, he used gross-out gimmicks to get over, something of which I generally do not approve. The style and panache of the Boogeyman concept is fine, but in execution it just didn't resonate with me. As a poor worker and a mediocre promo, it was something that would have been better served by someone else.

I think that, for me, it also was a gimmick that suffered due to its placement in time. I was watching wrestling (primarily Smackdown) at this time for the great talents on the show. But so often, the lower card guys just did absolutely nothing for me. This was an 80s gimmick resuscitated in the 2000s, and for me it was too soon to be retro and too late to be relevant.

I often get accused of not having fun with wrestling by the "sports entertainment" fans on the board, but I take umbrage with that. If the Boogeyman is supposed to be fun, then perhaps we should take stock of what fun is and how it varies from person to person. I love a wild and wacky promo. Ric Flair in WCW during the Nitro years, Scott Steiner in TNA, the Hurricane... there are some truly hilarious and goofy characters that I've loved over the years. I think my issue stems from the lack of character development again. Boogeyman had very little in-ring ability (he was old as hell back during his debut, remember) and his promo work was less than stellar and went nowhere. In all honesty, he was just another Kevin Thorn. A character that WWE only prioritized as a gimmick and never saw it as anything else. That's why Elias was best in NXT - he evolved and changed and reacted to things that happened. These other characters are so damned static and uninteresting.
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Boo.

Boogeyman was awesome.

He is kind of a difficult character to do much with though. He sucks in the ring and I'm not sure he can function as a manager to any useful end.

I guess the key to using him well would be to make him a prop in the storylines of others, as a sort of obstacle put in the way of a dude en route to the real money match. Unfortunately you'd need to resolve him as an obstacle without having him wrestle, which again, is a problem. But I think he could potentially have a use.

In any case this wasn't done much or even attempted so I can see why you'd find him stale. But man he killed that gimmick. His entrance was amazing, the mannerisms, the devotion to the character. Like the Boogeyman/Bray face off in Rumble 2016 or whatever exposed Bray so badly as just some guy faking a gimmick that he isn't particularly well suited to imo.
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His entrance was great, no doubt. But past that, there was just nothing there except the worms, and that's not really my speed. I think the worker is really the problem here, though. If you can't wrestle, you can't wrestle.
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Terrible wrestler, great pop up talent.

I quite enjoyed him showing up and exchanging worms for pancakes with the New Day.
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Well he is bad at working. Abysmally bad. I mean I like Khali matches and I can't even say I like Boogeyman matches.

But he is very good at the gimmick. It's more than just an entrance. His backstage segments were awesome for what they were-- he was never really put in any sort of program where he needed to do anything beyond "I'M COMIN, TO GETCHA!" but I don't really doubt he could. He definitely had a charisma to him that most wrestlers can't achieve.

I think in a different era or fed, or maybe if he was just a bit younger, he could've been something better with even the most basic amount of training. It's the type of gimmick where you literally can spend like 85% of the match selling or doing character work and have a passable match. He wouldn't even need to have great execution.

But Boogeyman couldn't even reach that low bar. He couldn't sell, and couldn't even do the most basic moves remotely passably. I do think this is something that could be taught to even the worst worker out there though-- I just think that with Boogeyman they probably made no earnest attempt to because he was so old coming in that it wasn't worth it.

Still. I like the guy lots either way, but I can't try to objectively claim he's great or anything. I'm just saying I do feel there was a lot of wasted potential there as a manager/personality or by giving him a bit of training (I feel his character is the type that if taught the right style to wrestle could have passable matches at later ages than your typical wrestlers), and that he did really well with what he was given.
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School today, so no write-ups.
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Boogeyman always felt like an attempt to do Papa Shango right but even Papa Shango had problems
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Boogeyman would have worked better with Ultimate Warrior selling for him like he did for Papa Shango.
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#134 - Vladimir Kozlov Nominated by: Johnbobb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0im-TCGEgh0" data-time="

Despite strong booking early in his career, Kozlov never really impressed me. His slow descent into irrelevance was predictable and uninteresting and, ultimately, I could never really come around to care about anything Kozlov did in the ring. He did Ziggler's current gimmick better than Ziggler did, however, so there is that.

Kozlov is just a guy for whom I can provide very little in the way of insight. He was coming in right around the time that I was about to take a hiatus from wrestling and he was certainly one of the reasons. There was just no reason to care about anything he did. His matches were dull and his character was yet another one that didn't evolve or react to anything. Ultimately, he worked with Santino Marella in a role that really did not befit the monster he could have been, but by that point it was far too late to be relevant.

Again, there's not really match to say here.
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#133 - Santino Marella Nominated by: Johnbobb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yebmSyedjtc" data-time="

I'll continue to double down on my growing reputation amongst people like Rock and SHINE as a "murderer of fun", but Santino just wasn't funny.

Now, don't get me wrong - the initial introduction of Santino was quite intriguing. I love the concept of a fan coming out of the crowd to shock the world. However, past the first conceit of Santino, he slowly became this quasi-racist misogynist punching bag character that utilized such a broad and elementary form of quality that I think anyone with a fifth grade education would shake their heads in disappointment. In fact, Santino started to epitomize one of the worst aspects of wrestling: he embodied the notion that "you don't watch wrestling around anyone else."

For me, it's been clear for years that WWE is not a place for general comedy. The writing staff of WWE is comprised of writers who can't hack it on a real show. After all, as TV has continued to boom and expand over the years, more and more opportunities for GOOD writers continue to materialize, drawing the real talent away. A TV writer doesn't want to write wrestling for the most part - the knowledge that the stories you have to produce come from the mind of a man who is quite out-of-touch and extremely mercurial does no favors to the reputation of WWE as low-quality television. So when all of the incentive lies elsewhere, the cream of the crop will rise above wrestling. WWE is forced to bring in the very worst of professional TV writing, and therefore you get the worst comedy on television. You become the 2 Broke Girls with muscly men fighting.

When wrestling does comedy best, it's all about, and here I am becoming a broken record, reacting. Aside from a wrestler themselves taking control of a creative vision like Matt Hardy, the greatest comedy in wrestling has always been two guys given a prompt and making something out of it. The Rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin are truly two of the most perfect examples of guys who fed off of the crowd and off of their opponents to develop a comedy segment organically. Santino, a guy who actually has decent comedic sensibilities, was never given this opportunity. He was handed a script - written by mediocre writers - and told to say the lines. Now, for his part, he always dove into the role and I respect that. But the role sucked.

When I think of great comedy in wrestling, I usually think of a guy like Ric Flair, honestly. Flair was over the top always. But he could subtly change how that bombastic nature played in an interview. Sometimes he was just "crazy old Ric Flair", hooting and hollering and yelling "MEAN GENE" and dancing around with Elizabeth or coverting with comedic mastermind Bobby Heenan. Sometimes, however, the arrogance shown through and he wasn't fun and games. The character was malleable and versatile and it could be serious if necessary. Santino was clearly a punchline and the writers kept him static for most of his career. By the time he's playing Santina and really torpedoing the entire legitimacy of the women's division, it becomes clear that wrestling has stopped trying to build itself up and given in to the entropic nature of WWE, a company that so often swallows outside talent and churns out flan.

In before hate from the sports entertainment fanbase on this board :(
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Santino and Kozlov were meh. M-E-H.

Please do a write-up lamenting Nikki Bella next Scarlet.

Rankings So Far

150. Jenna Morasca
149. Ashley Massaro
148. The Great Khali
147. Krissy Vaine
146. The Final Solution
145. Rhaka Khan
144. Dave Crist
143. Rosa Mendes
142. Jackie Gayda
141. Matt Taven
140. Jinder Mahal
139. Heidenreich
138. Bryan Alvarez
137. Enzo Amore
136. Dan Matha
135. The Boogeyman
134. Vladimir Kozlov
133. Santino Marella

Who's Left?

Adrian Neville
AJ Lee
AJ Styles
Alex Wright
Andre the Giant
Arn Anderson
Asuka
Awesome Kong
Barry Darsow
Bayley
Becky Lynch
Big Boss Man
Big Show
Billy Graham
Bob Holly
Bobby Heenan
Booker T
Braun Strowman
Bret Hart
Brian Pillman
Brock Lesnar
Bruiser Brody
Buff Bagwell
Charlotte Flair
Chase Owens
Chavo Guerrero
Chris Jericho
Chris Kanyon
Chuck Taylor
CM Punk
Daffney
Dan Lambert
Daniel Bryan
Dave Meltzer
Dean Malenko
Diamond Dallas Page
Disco Inferno
Dusty Rhodes
Dynamite Kid
Eddie Guerrero
Edge
Eric Bischoff
Ethan Carter III
EVIL
Finn Balor
Glacier
Goldust
Hayabusa
Heath Slater
Hiromu Takahashi
Hirooki Goto
Hiroshi Tanahashi
Hornswoggle
Hulk Hogan
Hurricane
Jacques Rougeau
Jake Roberts
James Ellsworth
Jay White
Jeff Hardy
Jesse Ventura
John Cena
Josh Mathews
Juice Robinson
Jushin Liger
Kairi Sane
Kane
Kazuchika Okada
Kenny Omega
Kevin Nash
Kevin Sullivan
Kota Ibushi
Kurt Angle
KUSHIDA
Lex Luger
Lou Thesz
Maria Kanellis
Mark Henry
Matt Hardy
Matt Sydal
Mick Foley
Mickie James
Minoru Suzuki
Mister Perfect
Miz
Muhammad Hassan
MVP
Naomichi Marufuji
Nikki Bella
Pentagon
Perry Saturn
Randy Savage
Raven
Rey Mysterio
Ric Flair
Rich Swann
Road Warrior Hawk
Roderick Strong
Ron Simmons
Ronda Rousey
SANADA
Sasha Banks
Scott Norton
Scott Steiner
Seth Rollins
Shawn Michaels
Shinsuke Nakamura
Shockmaster
Sid Vicious
Steve Austin
Steve Blackman
Taichi
Taylor Wilde
Ted DiBiase
Terry Funk
Terry Gordy
Tetsuya Naito
Timothy Thatcher
Tommaso Ciampa
Tomohiro Ishii
Torrie Wilson
Toru Yano
Triple H
Trish Stratus
Tyler Bate
Ultimo Dragon
Undertaker
Vampiro
Vickie Guerrero
WALTER
Will Ospreay
William Regal

Heel Santino was great. I tend to agree with you when he was a face though, which unfortunately was the majority of his career.
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#132 - Glacier Nominated by: Lopen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1NzprbE1pQ" data-time="

Hoo boy. Let's talk about Eric Bischoff's beloved pet project, the ineffable Glacier.

WCW was a hot promotion in 1996, gaining traction with its all-star roster and the sheer variety of styles on its show. You could watch two hours of Nitro and see 8 different matches (whereas on RAW now, you will pretty much see the same match over and over with occasional exceptions). Eric Bischoff was riding high off of the success of the Outsiders and the burgeoning cruiserweight division, and he decided to take a chance on a gimmick he personally helped to develop.

You need to understand that Easy E was a huge karate enthusiast. His love for martial arts seemed virtually unparalleled. He would talk about his black belt nearly as often as he talked about motorcycling (another passion that led to the bizarre but memorable annual Hog Wilde pay-per-view, filmed in front of thousands of bikers each year in the northwest). This led to his desire for a character who would utilize martial arts to dispatch his opponents; with the success of Mortal Kombat and WCW's shameless passion to steal from anything remotely resembling pop culture success (never forget RoboCop), Glacier was born.

For literal months (we're talking nearly 5 months of hype packages), Glacier was advertised as a no-nonsense silent ninja, a veritable Sub-Zero. Every package was capped with the words "BLOOD RUNS COLD" emblazoned on screen. This did little to really spark a lot of interest, but this is generally standard fare for debuting characters in wrestling. What made it concerning was a hype package that aired only a couple of weeks before Glacier's actual debut. I scoured the net to find this package but the only place I assume it still exists is the WWE Network, sadly. In it, Glacier speaks for the first time, sharing his origins. What followed was maybe the single most hilarious promo in WCW of 1996, and that year included the following:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX-drFUI1ZI" data-time="

and also this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SF_m2LEtDA" data-time="

Glacier proceeded to talk about how his sensei (which he mispronounced) trained him in jiu jitsu (which he mispronounced) and something called "Tay KWUN DOO," a fighting style so mysterious that it does not exist. He had the heaviest hick accent you could possibly imagine, and in this longer video package, was show shadow boxing with the most laughable moveset ever.

But he hadn't made a live debut yet, so who could fault anyone for being skeptical? When the big day came, when Glacier made his impact felt, Bischoff pulled out all the stops, creating the most elaborate entrance of its time; Glacier's matches were wrestled under pale blue lighting with "snow" falling from the rafters. Lights glittered. Lasers sprayed the ring with designs. And then Glacier started wrestling.

And no one cared.

For months, Glacier would constantly be given stop-and-start pushes, attempting to reignite his fire. But WCW fans had already chosen to support another Iceman (Dean Malenko), and they had little time for an unknown who couldn't wrestle by this point. After all, their main events were dominated by Hulk Hogan, Roddy Piper (post hip replacement) and Kevin Nash. They had enough bad wrestling already. Glacier also spawned several other Mortal Kombat lookalikes which whom he would do battle, but after a year of mediocre half-pushes, they would all be repackaged. All except Glacier himself... who just disappeared.

Glacier is a fondly regarded blip on the radar of professional wrestling and often is given the nostalgic treatment of similar misfires, such as the Shockmaster. I personally was never a fan of the Glacier character and while an occasional package would make me laugh, the joke ran cold long before Glacier was put on ice.
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Aw poor Glacier. I think he was a bit more capable in the ring than he appeared-- he was just always put against jobbers or other "martial arts" workers who he couldn't learn anything from. Dude still wrestles occasionally though. He's been on CHIKARA and he was on RoH last year! Of all WCW guys he owns the rights to his gimmick, somehow. I guess WWE didn't want it, or something.

Also Glacier totally had character evolution it just all took place on Thunder.

He eventually came upon hard times financially (back when the winner's purse was a thing I guess?) and sold his gear and entrance to Kaz Hayashi in one of my favorite WCW midcarder storylines.

He got it back at some point but I don't remember how.
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I think in Russo's tenure they did teasers for him again and then buried the gimmick backstage if I remember correctly with wrestlers just saying things like, "This guy again?" and stuff like that.
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Sounds right

In any case I think the character had a lot of potential as a midcard gimmick that was self aware of the fact that it was ridiculous-- it just took WCW till early 1999 to realize this. That was probably about 2 years too late.

Oh yeah also in that time of Thunder leading up to the sale (or maybe after he got it back), you had like a few weeks of Glacier just like, totally hamming up his entrance, taking literal minutes with it before beginning the match. I believe once he did his entrance, gave high fives to people around the ring as his opponent patiently awaited a match, then went to the backstage area and didn't even begin the match. I think he also once just randomly restarted his entrance during a match and lost by count out.

This is all kinda hazy-- totally going to watch some Thunder once it's all on the Network.
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I can't wait for Thunder on the Network. I've slowed down my Nitro watchthrough so I could watch them back-to-back.
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#131 - Muhammad Hassan Nominated by: Tom Bombadil

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmQA6jsC3h4" data-time="

Hassan's story is a tragic one, riddled with drama both in front of and behind the scenes in WWE during a very transitive period in its history.

After 9/11 (and we're talking years after, since WWE has all of the timeliness of Rip Van Winkle), Vince McMahon sought to capitalize on the rabid phobia of the Middle East that had flourished under the presidency of George W. Thus, a virtual unknown was foisted onto the roster to play a character far from his actual ethnicity. Vince's mindset was one of two-dimensional cartoon characters, but the reality of the character portrayed by Hassan was actually much more nuanced and quite honestly, had the potential to be great. Mustafa Ali actually started his 205 Live run using a riff of this portrayal to what I thought was great effect. Hassan was not a terrorist or a racist for fans to jeer, but rather an American citizen of Arab descent. He didn't seek to be violent or hurtful, but to correct the misconceptions of a nation of xenophobes. Hassan's early promos were actual quite unique, showcasing a character that broke the mold of the preconceived hasty generalizations that epitomized the ills of an America in fear. He was tired of being lumped in with fundamentalists and jihadists; proud of his own heritage, he just sought the respect he thought all American, himself included, deserved.

But, as is often the case with WWE, the chance of making a social change was lost on Vince. When the fans immediately began booing Hassan, his character descended into more and more of a caricature. The backstage politics didn't help, as so many so this unproven rookie as an undeserving star, climbing the ranks thanks solely to the timeliness of his gimmick. Hassan himself didn't ingratiate himself with the boys, and a rift began to form.

Nevertheless, Vince continued to push his pet project as the edge and the commentary of the character was wiped away and replaced more and more with a racist stereotype. Still, there was value in this xenophobic heel amongst rednecks and low IQ fans; they loved to boo that which frightened or angered them, and Hassan had nuclear heat. So much so, in fact, that he went into a feud with the Undertaker at the height of his villainy. His partner in crime, Daivari, took on Taker in a now infamous match which you can see here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMl0w7UXUDI" data-time="

Of course, this match, while somewhat tasteless, normally wouldn't end a career. That is, you know, unless you air this segment on the day of the London subway bombings.

Poor timing, major backstage heat, and bad publicity all came together like a wildfire, destroying the promising career of Hassan in just hours, and soon he was on the streets looking for new work. Ultimately, I feel as if Hassan had so much potential - he could have presented nuance in a show sorely lacking anything resembling it. But at the end of the day, the writing, the direction, and the tone all combined to become something terrible. It was probably best that it was killed when it was.
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Loved Hassan at his best-- rough string of entries here! Ultimately I can't disagree with the write-up though.

What I'm seeing here is that you weigh the blunders a lot higher than I do (or like more of the list than I do)-- I tend to take a wrestler at their peak form and then put it as WWE's bad when they get botched. Like I'd have Hassan high cause when he debuted it was a really unique and good heel character. Best heels are ultimately right in what they're saying in a lot of ways but wrong in the way they're presenting it-- but I mean, yeah, it's hard to deny that his character became cringey to watch when he became generic evil foreigner. Particularly because well, it was like, literally the opposite of what his character was fighting for initially.
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Well, how I ranked them was simple: I created a bracket and ran it. Then I removed the winner and ran all of the winner's matches with a VOID slot, so that whoever lost to the winner moved up a round and played from there.

I can't really say that intent goes a long way on this list. For example, if I was ranking Gino Hernandez, I don't think he'd get above halfway on this list. However, I think he had the potential to be one of the top guys in wrestling in the 80s. And I didn't even spend time talking about the quality of wrestling Hassan presented. It wasn't good. If you put on boring matches, you're going to get penalized for it. It's why a wrestler I absolutely hate is still higher on this list (JONA might know who). The guy puts on great matches; I'd rather be entertained by someone I hate than bored by someone I like.

And I'll be honest; there are a ton of guys I like on this list. The top 50 was really, REALLY hard to rank.

But first and foremost, the quality of writing probably matters most for me. And Hassan, despite what initially aired, became a terrible character. And I don't forgive that.
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#130 - Torrie Wilson Nominated by: Preston

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja5tgPW53U4" data-time=" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja5tgPW53U4" data-time="

Torrie Wilson was bad in the ring, bad at acting and existed purely to occasionally wear skimpy outfits for the teenaged, overly hormonal boys in the audience. She really only rates as highly as she does because she was fairly charismatic and, I hesitate to say this, I enjoyed the utter schlock that was the Torrie vs. Dawn Marie feud.

Never forget that Torrie Wilson's father, Al, was fucked to death by a rival diva. You see, Dawn Marie was either envious of Torrie or in love with Torrie. It was never exactly clarified. Lots of bizarre lesbian overtones. Regardless, Torrie Wilson rebuffed whatever Dawn Marie was serving up, and in retaliation, Dawn Marie dated her dad. When this didn't result in whatever Dawn Marie wanted, she married Al. And then she fucked him so hard he died.

Al was a very old man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja5tgPW53U4" data-time=" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja5tgPW53U4" data-time="

This was the sort of terrible schlock that, for some reason, I actually enjoyed. It actually was so bad it was good. It was The Room levels of bad.

So, since I liked her dad and since I refuse to speak ill of the dead, Torrie Wilson ranks here, above the really terrible crap, but right below the generally below average dreck.
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Torrie is actually kinda underrated I think. She was actually a pretty good talker and had legit charisma as you said. And the longer we go from her time the more valuable that appears-- even though like, in that era she was kinda overshadowed by Trish Stratus who was kinda passable in the ring and could also talk.

She was bad in the ring but like, I'll take her over Michelle McCool or Kelly Kelly any day of the week even if I guess you could technically make an argument McCool at least is a slightly better worker. I actually found myself sorta rooting for her in the women's royal rumble.
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Torrie Wilson <3

Damn, I can get not liking Jinder much but Hassan so low is a crime.

Yeah, they ruined the gimmick in its final days but even then, Hassan was a master on the mic. Even in one of his final promos he was portraying that character he was intended to be. He's probably the most mishandled talent of all time in my opinion. He came out of nowhere and was immediately the most hated man on the roster. It didn't take superb talent to get the reactions he got, but the way he carried the character and his promo skill was elite for someone without a ton of time under his belt. He was fine in the ring the same way; a lot potential with someone that had very little time honing his craft.

I will always think this man has the most screwed up career in just about any facet of media. Destroyed by his employer's bad decisions as well as our culture's inability to accept that fictional media doesn't have to cater to our sensitivity on some subjects. Now the angle that killed the character was the wrong way for it to go, but everything up until the moment those dudes ran out was total gold. It might have been just like a year of gold, but it was 24 carat gold if nothing else. I still hold out hope WWE can make right and give this guy some sort of justice someday.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Well, how I ranked them was simple: I created a bracket and ran it. Then I removed the winner and ran all of the winner's matches with a VOID slot, so that whoever lost to the winner moved up a round and played from there.

I can't really say that intent goes a long way on this list. For example, if I was ranking Gino Hernandez, I don't think he'd get above halfway on this list. However, I think he had the potential to be one of the top guys in wrestling in the 80s. And I didn't even spend time talking about the quality of wrestling Hassan presented. It wasn't good. If you put on boring matches, you're going to get penalized for it. It's why a wrestler I absolutely hate is still higher on this list (JONA might know who). The guy puts on great matches; I'd rather be entertained by someone I hate than bored by someone I like.

And I'll be honest; there are a ton of guys I like on this list. The top 50 was really, REALLY hard to rank.

But first and foremost, the quality of writing probably matters most for me. And Hassan, despite what initially aired, became a terrible character. And I don't forgive that.

Honestly I really loved Hassan but like Glacier he falls hard into the what could have been category.

Id have still put both above feaking Torrie Wilson but overall cant disagree too hard.
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i do now wish I had nominated Paul Orndorff.

I think his feud with Hogan was like the height of 80s Hulkamania feuds but he had a lot of duds in there too
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Eddv posted...

Honestly I really loved Hassan but like Glacier he falls hard into the what could have been category.

Hassan is a good of example of awful in the end but something that could have been great, but I'm watching Glacier matches. It did not translate to anything good in-ring.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Eddv posted...

Honestly I really loved Hassan but like Glacier he falls hard into the what could have been category.

Hassan is a good of example of awful in the end but something that could have been great, but I'm watching Glacier matches. It did not translate to anything good in-ring.

It still could have been something great and memorable. It still was memorable even as botched as it ended up.
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Yes it could have been more memorable. And that's not necessarily a good thing.

I heartily disagree. I heard him cut a terrible promo and wrestle a terrible match.
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I'm just saying you still have Steve Blackman to go and some truly like....guys I cant say anything about besides "he does good wrestleman moves".

Its just a difference in priority.
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Eddv posted...

"he does good wrestleman moves".

That is a difference between Glacier and Blackman.
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