Poll of the Day > Hate the trend that all lootboxes = gambling.

(+) Yeah! (+)

I don't consider it gambling, but people have different opinions. I see many people calling it gambling and using the excuse 'think of the children' to get rid of lootboxes. That's a silly argument because there are many parental controls people can use on their PCs and consoles. Plus they can password protect anyone from purchasing content in games. People shouldn't use children as an excuse. Parents shouldn't use children as an excuse for poor parenting.

Lootboxes are no different than trading cards, mystery toy boxes, crane machines, etc. I guess all of that should be banned as well?

People are saying games with lootboxes should be rated as Adults Only, but guess what? No retail stores carry AO games and console manufacturers don't license AO games.

If anything, games should keep their standard ESRB rating but should have a description along with them saying 'contains microtransactions.' Publishers could be required to show the odds of winning too on their site or whatever.

In addition, people buying pre-paid currency cards/gift cards for Xbox Store, PS Store, Eshop, Steam, etc. should be carded (18+). An adult should accompany children buying those pre-paid cards/gift cards.

I feel like a lot of people are attacking Overwatch with this lootbox controversy. Overwatch is one of the few that does lootboxes right. You can easily get lootboxes without paying a cent. Everything you obtain from lootboxes is completely cosmetic. Obtaining cosmetics through lootboxes makes each item more unique and special because you get them at random. If you have a duplicate, you'll get some gold coins instead. If you have enough gold coins, you can exchange them for any item you want (if you have enough coins).

See? It's all cosmetics in Overwatch and it makes getting them fun because you don't know what you'll get. If you could directly buy what you wanted, it wouldn't make the cosmetics special and I personally wouldn't be too interested in them. Just for the record, I have only purchases $2 worth of lootboxes in Overwatch. I wouldn't mind spending more to be honest, but money is tight.

Last but not least, the main reason lootboxes work well in Overwatch is that it funds regular updates and new content such as maps, heroes, and new game modes. Other games sell expensive map packs that separate the user base and makes it smaller. Did you know Overwatch gets updated every few weeks? Sometimes it's a minor patch, and sometimes it's a big patch. They always try to balance the game and add something new. This wouldn't happen if they sold everything in packs. And again, best of all, lootboxes can be obtained free in Overwatch and everything is cosmetics that gives no one unfair advantages.

I'm fully aware there are many games that shit microtransaction and lootbox practices. Those are the companies that should be targeted for their shitty anti-consumer practices. Oh, and I know there are people who are addicted to gambling and that's unfortunate. But it is impossible to supervise every single person out there.
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You cant make me read all that, I have a little thing called freedom
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Mead posted...

You cant make me read all that, I have a little thing called freedom

Too bad for you. Move along then.
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Make me
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pipebomb_phil posted...

But it is impossible to supervise every single person out there.

I stopped reading right there.
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darcandkharg31 posted...

pipebomb_phil posted...

But it is impossible to supervise every single person out there.

I stopped reading right there.

Thank you for reading it all.
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pipebomb_phil posted...

Lootboxes are no different than trading cards, mystery toy boxes, crane machines, etc. I guess all of that should be banned as well?

Yes.

pipebomb_phil posted...

I don't consider it gambling

You are wrong, and that undercuts nearly every other aspect of the rest of your argument.



pipebomb_phil posted...

Lootboxes are no different than trading cards, mystery toy boxes, crane machines, etc. I guess all of that should be banned as well?

Even putting aside the fact that some people would indeed say that many of those things also exploit human addiction behaviors in malicious fashion and need to be regulated to at least some degree (which is why most of them ARE, to some extent or another), there's also the added wrinkle that most of those things provide you with physical items which can be traded or resold.

I bought Magic cards 20 years ago that I still own today. If I decided tomorrow that I no longer wanted them, I could sell them off (and if I owned Moxes or a Black Lotus, I could sell them for a great deal of money). Conversely, I could give them to my nephew to use, and he could keep or resell them at his leisure. If I drop dead tomorrow, my cards will still be there for my heirs to benefit from.

If I decide tomorrow that I don't want the Mechromancer skin I bought in Borderlands 2 anymore, or that I want to pass it on to my nephew because he's a huge Gaige fan, hey, tough shit. It's account bound and mine forever (or, at least, mine as long as I own that account. If I buy a new console and can't remember my old account password, I'm straight up fucked).

It's worse when you consider most microtransactions and DLC aren't just tied to accounts, but are also tied to online mechanisms that absolutely require online connectivity to maintain. I own millions of dollars worth of cars in GTA Online, but the moment Rockstar decides to shut their servers down those cars effectively cease to exist and I own jack shit.

Once you introduce lootbox mechanics, this problem is magnified. Now you aren't just paying real money for fictional non-items, you're paying real money for the chance to potentially win fictional non-items if you're lucky. Which you won't be, because most lootbox distribution mechanics are designed to ensure the things you want most will be almost impossible to acquire without spending extremely large amounts of money. With most games built entirely around making the lootbox mechanic as addictive and enticing as possible, and with the entire rest of the game hamstrung to effectively funnel you towards spending money to bypass artificial roadblocks.



pipebomb_phil posted...

People are saying games with lootboxes should be rated as Adults Only, but guess what? No retail stores carry AO games and console manufacturers don't license AO games

Maybe you should consider why that is, then consider why people are suggesting it, then put those two concepts together in your head until you come to an astonishing revelation.


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I'm not reverse searching to find where this ine came from someone else do it
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Did this really need a separate topic?
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blah blah blah
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VeeVees posted...

blah blah blah

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shadowsword87 posted...

pipebomb_phil posted...

Lootboxes are no different than trading cards, mystery toy boxes, crane machines, etc. I guess all of that should be banned as well?

No

This guy gets it.
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Found the EA employee!
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I feel like the only people left defending loot boxes for AAA games are Blizzard fans who are compelled to defend it because many of Blizzard's products have loot boxes now.

FYI Blizzard's income more than doubled the year they released their loot box games (Overwatch, Hearthstone, etc.)
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Lootboxes that have advantages over others are gambling. Lootboxes with cosmetic shit are not. Simple.

Lootboxes are gambling.

I don't get the attitude of kids gambling in video games being a bad thing.

They learn early on, gambling is a system designed to exploit you and take your money.
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Yellow posted...

I don't get the attitude of kids gambling in video games being a bad thing.

They learn early on, gambling is a system designed to exploit you and take your money.

Well, they'll learn what gambling is, whether they learn to avoid it or embrace it is another matter entirely. Adults still walk into casinos and walk out broke. Gambling is considered an epidemic in China and despite already being illegal people teach their kids how to gamble and they continue to gamble as adults.
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pipebomb_phil posted...

I don't consider it gambling, but people have different opinions.

I avoid lootbox games like the plague, so I don't know the details of the mechanics. Gambling is not a problem for me, I don't like it and I'm not getting addicted. But it's a serious problem for others. It's ruining lives and families. Like alcohol/drugs, so it makes sense to regulate it to some degree. Lootboxes need to be researched, and, if found addictive and that it makes people waste large amounts of money, need to be restricted (outlawed, obligatory warning, adult only etc.)

Lootboxes are no different than trading cards, mystery toy boxes, crane machines, etc. I guess all of that should be banned as well?

They are literally different. Crane machines are dumb, but usually don't cost large amounts of money and you can usually only win toys. Trading cards have gotten a lot worse in recent years. They feature ultra rare cards. One booster of pokmon cards can contain less than $1 worth of cards, or it can hold a card worth more than a whole boosterpackbox of 36 (over $100).

People are saying games with lootboxes should be rated as Adults Only, but guess what? No retail stores carry AO games and console manufacturers don't license AO games.

That's actually a great idea. Then (game) stores can start selling adult only games (and end the era where games are only for children) and we're no longer stuck with all these censored games! (censored to weird united stated standards no less)

Mead posted...

I have a little thing called freedom

How many lootboxes did it take you to get that?
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jesus give me a tl'dr nerd
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Smarkil posted...

jesus give me a tl'dr nerd

Bad opinion is bad
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I like the Belgian definition of loot boxes that affect the games outcome make it gambling. If nothing else because those ones are cancerous and need to be banned.
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SilentSeph posted...

Mead posted...

I have a little thing called freedom

How many lootboxes did it take you to get that?

Ten!
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Gambling

1. play games of chance for money; bet.

2. take risky action in the hope of a desired result.

While you're not trying to get more money, you are aiming for a desired result. They are gambling, but you are right in that lootboxes like how Overwatch does them is fine. The whole purely cosmetic part.

If there weren't lootboxes, then skins in Overwatch would just straight up cost money. I could see legendaries being like $20 each. If that happened, welp, goodbye getting skins for me cause I ain't spending money for skins.
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It's a game of chance not gambling you aren't losing anything you always win something
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AllstarSniper32 posted...

Gambling

1. play games of chance for money; bet.

2. take risky action in the hope of a desired result.

While you're not trying to get more money, you are aiming for a desired result. They are gambling, but you are right in that lootboxes like how Overwatch does them is fine. The whole purely cosmetic part.

If there weren't lootboxes, then skins in Overwatch would just straight up cost money. I could see legendaries being like $20 each. If that happened, welp, goodbye getting skins for me cause I ain't spending money for skins.

Well, whether Overwatch's loot boxes are "fine" depends on what angle you're look at it from.

Does it effect the game play of the game for players who choose to not purchase loot boxes? No.

Do people with gambling problems still spend over hundreds of dollars trying to get the skin they want? Yes.

But that's not your problem, as the gambling addicts and whales are paying so you can get free updates right?

But publishers are now ordering loot boxes be put in single player games as well as focusing development on games specifically where they can sell loot boxes and microtransactions, because they are so ridiculously profitable for the relatively small effort put into them compared to something like... story driven DLC for single player games.

By the way, there exists games that have loot boxes but also give you the option to straight purchase the skins in the loot boxes as well, the reason Overwatch doesn't do that is because then people won't spend tons of money fishing for the 1 skin they want in the loot boxes.
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trading cards?
*scratches head*

we seem to be assuming that lootboxes are fair?
In our age where AI bots monitor our spending habbits, I've just assumed that there's algorithms running in the back.
this patent comes to mind, just to illustrate how devs are approaching this:
https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/10/activision-patents-matchmaking-that-encourages-players-to-buy-microtransactions/
right now, it's not classified as anything (in NA at least). there's no need for devs to cite accurate odds, or even pay out. entirely riggable. inherently unfair because it can pay out as much or as little to anyone it chooses. who is ok with this?

you can cite Blizzard for doing it right. Even if they are, the discussion is how to compel legally other companies to do the same

What are some games that have loot boxes?
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TigerTycoon posted...

Do people with gambling problems still spend over hundreds of dollars trying to get the skin they want? Yes.

But that's not your problem, as the gambling addicts and whales are paying so you can get free updates right?

It's not my problem because it's not my problem how people spend their money. People get addicted to and spend tons of money on a lot of various stupid things.

TigerTycoon posted...

Well, whether Overwatch's loot boxes are "fine" depends on what angle you're look at it from.

Nah, it's fine because the things you get from it are purely optional and cosmetic. It's not the company's problem if people are addicted and spend way too much money on them. And like I just said, people spend way too much money on lots of things that are optional and/or cosmetic.

The difference is that when you can get things that aren't just cosmetic, like what was in the Star Wars game, then the value shifts from being completely optional to being somewhat optional but leaning towards needed. That's what makes it predatory. They would never come out and say it, but of course they hope that you feel the items are needed enough to where you would go spend more money just to get the desired outcome of better items.
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AllstarSniper32 posted...

TigerTycoon posted...

Do people with gambling problems still spend over hundreds of dollars trying to get the skin they want? Yes.

But that's not your problem, as the gambling addicts and whales are paying so you can get free updates right?

It's not my problem because it's not my problem how people spend their money. People get addicted to and spend tons of money on a lot of various stupid things.

Doesn't matter if you're not personally involved. We're talking about social epidemic of fraudulent business practices. Things like pyramid schemes and racketeering are illegal, even if you've never been the victim.

Nah, it's fine because the things you get from it are purely optional and cosmetic. It's not the company's problem if people are addicted and spend way too much money on them. And like I just said, people spend way too much money on lots of things that are optional and/or cosmetic.

The difference is that when you can get things that aren't just cosmetic, like what was in the Star Wars game, then the value shifts from being completely optional to being somewhat optional but leaning towards needed. That's what makes it predatory. They would never come out and say it, but of course they hope that you feel the items are needed enough to where you would go spend more money just to get the desired outcome of better items.

Again its not about your personal preferences. Cosmetics or not, real money is involved. Government feel like they will step in if people are being led on to spend more then is reasonable, then it deserves looking into.
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AllstarSniper32 posted...

It's not my problem because it's not my problem how people spend their money. People get addicted to and spend tons of money on a lot of various stupid things.

AllstarSniper32 posted...

Nah, it's fine because the things you get from it are purely optional and cosmetic. It's not the company's problem if people are addicted and spend way too much money on them. And like I just said, people spend way too much money on lots of things that are optional and/or cosmetic.

The difference is that when you can get things that aren't just cosmetic, like what was in the Star Wars game, then the value shifts from being completely optional to being somewhat optional but leaning towards needed. That's what makes it predatory. They would never come out and say it, but of course they hope that you feel the items are needed enough to where you would go spend more money just to get the desired outcome of better items.

This is exactly what I was saying. From your point of view, you don't care about loot boxes intentionally exploiting people with gambling problems for money, because you don't view yourself as personally affected. I'm not judging you for this view, I'm just pointing out this is an existent point of view.

The conversation around loot boxes isn't solely about how it affects the balance of games for people who choose not to pay for loot boxes in AAA games, there are people who also want loot boxes to be regulated like any other business based around gambling, to protect those who are easily exploited and especially children, as there are no age restrictions for games with loot boxes.

Loot boxes and similar systems are predatory by nature as long as people have a chance of getting anything that they want from them and the ability to pay real money to do so, they provide the same triggers for gamblers regardless of it the rewards are cosmetic or game changing, the goal in making the rewards game changing was to get more people to purchase loot boxes than the people who already were because now you are at a game play disadvantage for not doing so.
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ArvTheGreat posted...

It's a game of chance not gambling you aren't losing anything you always win something

It's a game of chance, thus gambling, you are always losing money. You have a small chance of getting the item you really want (winning) and a bigger chance of getting crap (losing).

So yatzee is gambling arv never spent any money doing these loot crates. You are spending points to get something in return gambling means you could get nothing in return
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Buying groceries isn't gambling yes you are losing money but you are getting things in return. Not liking what you get in return isn't gambling it just means you didn't like what your got winning a prize every time does not equal gambling else capsule toys would be considered gambling getting a toy from a cereal box would be considered gambling cause you might not like what you get you may be that picky
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I remember the lootcrate trend a few years ago and how e-personalities were shilling hard for them. I didn't get it and considered it a waste of money. Then companies started doing season passes without even telling you what the fuck was in them, morons would buy it and then bitch when the content in it was terrible. Now we're at loot crates and of course EA is behind a major controversy regarding it.

These things aren't successful because the companies create them, they're successful because there's a lot of gullible people that throw their money at it and defend ridiculous practices with reasoning that makes no sense. Some fools and their money are just destined to be parted from each other.
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ArvTheGreat posted...

So yatzee is gambling arv never spent any money doing these loot crates. You are spending points to get something in return gambling means you could get nothing in return.
Buying groceries isn't gambling yes you are losing money but you are getting things in return. Not liking what you get in return isn't gambling it just means you didn't like what your got winning a prize every time does not equal gambling

If you buy a chance product, hoping to get a certain good item, then it's gambling. If you get worthless crap then you might as well "win" nothing. Some lottery tickets cost $20. People can then win $5, a coupon, or even nothing. Those people consider themselves losers even if they "won".
To make up for losing they buy more lottery tickets, wasting money, then they can get addicted. That's why gambling is regulated in most places. Lootboxes is gambling. If it should be regulated under gambling laws is another discussion.

Yellow posted...

I don't get the attitude of kids gambling in video games being a bad thing.

They learn early on, gambling is a system designed to exploit you and take your money.

Because kids don't have the maturity and experience needed to recognize how and when they're being exploited, nor the self-control or value judgement skills needed to recognize when they're spending too much. As prevalent as gambling addiction is among adults, you'd see a whole lot more of it among kids if gambling weren't age-restricted.
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TigerTycoon posted...

The conversation around loot boxes isn't solely about how it affects the balance of games for people who choose not to pay for loot boxes in AAA games

But it is. The main reason this is getting so much attention is because of the pay-to-win system they tried to use. I bet if they had cosmetic only loot boxes this whole thing wouldn't even be happening.

TigerTycoon posted...

This is exactly what I was saying. From your point of view, you don't care about loot boxes intentionally exploiting people with gambling problems for money, because you don't view yourself as personally affected. I'm not judging you for this view, I'm just pointing out this is an existent point of view.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I said it's fine in Overwatch because the items in the boxes are purely cosmetic.

And fyi, I already really dislike large corporations because they exploit everyone, not just people with addictions.
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Lootboxes are no different than trading cards, mystery toy boxes, crane machines, etc. I guess all of that should be banned as well?

You don't typically open trading cards or mystery toy boxes with the express purpose of making money, or profiting. Loot boxes are gambling because you are opening them specifically to get the good stuff, legendary skins in Overwatch, high level star cards in Battlefront, etc.
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papercup posted...

Lootboxes are no different than trading cards, mystery toy boxes, crane machines, etc. I guess all of that should be banned as well?

You don't typically open trading cards or mystery toy boxes with the express purpose of making money, or profiting. Loot boxes are gambling because you are opening them specifically to get the good stuff, legendary skins in Overwatch, high level star cards in Battlefront, etc.

I'd say people typically open card packs and whatnot in the hopes of getting something good, or at least something they specifically desire. In the case of card games, some contents are given value by their usefulness in the game, though at least there you can hypothetically just print your own card with the same text and use that for the game.
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i don't mind lootboxes if it's strictly cosmetic like overwatch, but even then the world would be better off without them. 99% of the time if they're not completely unnecessary they're completely shitty, greedy, and awful. they should almost always stay the fuck out of a game if it's more than a dollar.
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benbeverfaqs posted...

ArvTheGreat posted...

So yatzee is gambling arv never spent any money doing these loot crates. You are spending points to get something in return gambling means you could get nothing in return.
Buying groceries isn't gambling yes you are losing money but you are getting things in return. Not liking what you get in return isn't gambling it just means you didn't like what your got winning a prize every time does not equal gambling

If you buy a chance product, hoping to get a certain good item, then it's gambling. If you get worthless crap then you might as well "win" nothing. Some lottery tickets cost $20. People can then win $5, a coupon, or even nothing. Those people consider themselves losers even if they "won".
To make up for losing they buy more lottery tickets, wasting money, then they can get addicted. That's why gambling is regulated in most places. Lootboxes is gambling. If it should be regulated under gambling laws is another discussion.

You are essentially trying to collect them all only the pickiest person would go for one thing
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benbeverfaqs posted...

Some lottery tickets cost $20. People can then win $5, a coupon, or even nothing

wrong.

the minimum you can win on a lottery ticket, a scratch off anyways, is what you paid for it.

you don't win coupons, that's just silly, but you can just win nothing.

and that's why it's called gambling.
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Lootboxes are worse than gambling because you can't turn around and make money off the contents of said lootbox. At least with trading cards, even if you only get junk, you can still theoretically sell the cards to someone for 5 cents or something.

Good luck selling a common lootbox drop.

helIy posted...

benbeverfaqs posted...

Some lottery tickets cost $20. People can then win $5, a coupon, or even nothing

wrong.

the minimum you can win on a lottery ticket, a scratch off anyways, is what you paid for it.

you don't win coupons, that's just silly, but you can just win nothing.

and that's why it's called gambling.

If you could win coupons through scratchoffs or the lottery itself, fuck would people riot.

TC is just trying to make up excuses for why he spent so much money on digital boxes
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No you can win 2 dollars off a 5 dollar scratcher you can win lower than what you bought the ticket for
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adjl posted...

papercup posted...

Lootboxes are no different than trading cards, mystery toy boxes, crane machines, etc. I guess all of that should be banned as well?

You don't typically open trading cards or mystery toy boxes with the express purpose of making money, or profiting. Loot boxes are gambling because you are opening them specifically to get the good stuff, legendary skins in Overwatch, high level star cards in Battlefront, etc.

I'd say people typically open card packs and whatnot in the hopes of getting something good, or at least something they specifically desire. In the case of card games, some contents are given value by their usefulness in the game, though at least there you can hypothetically just print your own card with the same text and use that for the game.

Except cards you print yourself are not tournament legal. They're not valuable, tradable or sellable (and it's copyright infringement ;) )
Some people open trading cards with the express purpose of making money, or profiting. There's a whole business of selling singles of popular TCG's, complete with shady practices like weighing booster packs.

helIy posted...

benbeverfaqs posted...

Some lottery tickets cost $20. People can then win $5, a coupon, or even nothing

wrong.
the minimum you can win on a lottery ticket, a scratch off anyways, is what you paid for it.
you don't win coupons, that's just silly, but you can just win nothing.
and that's why it's called gambling.

I'm actually sure it's not wrong and I talk from experience.
People can win less than the price of the ticket. (depends on the lottery)
People often win Ben&Jerries ice cream, or a board game.
(which is nice but it's less than the price of a ticket. It's better than 0 though, unless you're lactose intolerant).

Lol you wrote all that just to be wrong. Ita like the definition of gambling.
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