Board 8 > Hearthstone Discussion Topic: Truth is Found in Death

(+) Yeah! (+)

Hey guys remember when all the princes sucked

Well

There's one that's in a bunch of decks right now and is the highest winrate card when drawn early
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Remember when people were experimenting more with prince 4?
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I thought prince 3 was the best one, best among garbage at least, and was glad that when I opened a prince it was him and not one of the other two. Rogue Quest opinion all over again.

Though to be fair, I still wouldn't be playing prince 2 if I had him, none of the decks he's played in are ones I'm interested in playing.
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prince valanar is "pretty good" too if your deck already doesn't have any 4 drops that are MUST HAVE. the problem is that hard removal is so common and cheap in constructed that he doesn't really serve the purpose he's supposed to. 9/10 times I play him he functions as bait for hard removal. he never actually hits things and regains life for me. and most of the decks that have been prevalent lately already have a 4 drop slot with pretty essential cards.
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prince 3 is just a much worse faceless
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yeah I couldn't imagine any situation in which prince 3 would be anything other than worthless

why would you want to become a 3/3 copy of something for 3 mana? it's just totally inefficient

if you want to copy the stats for cheap, then turning into a 3/3 nullifies that effect

if you want a cheap way to create an extra token with an effect, then being 3 mana 3/3 defeats the purpose

better to either copy the stats of the target (a la faceless manipulator), or make cheap 1/1's (like a shadowcaster or the priest card that clones your minions)
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He used to be good in Maly Druid before the innervate nerf as Maly innervate Prince 3 double moon fire was great
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warlock life

when you can't play around the third mirror entity and your opponent gets an 8 mana pyroblast from primordial glyph for lethal
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I've played two Murloc Paladin bots today, is that really the best deck for bots right now? Didn't seem like it.
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Paladin is like a slight bit above the dumpster fire that is warrior right now, I don't know why anyone would play it. Bots included.
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oh cool

finally winning a game and then my internet randomly disconnects for a full 2 minutes and I lose the game as a result

when hearthstone bullshit RNG meets IRL bullshit RNG
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Camden posted...

I've played two Murloc Paladin bots today, is that really the best deck for bots right now? Didn't seem like it.

Might be left over from before the nerfs

But honestly Rogue/Priest don't seem very bot friendly. Maybe they're tired of being large men?
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Has anyone played Smite Tactics?

It's... interesting.
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Wait, there's bots? Like people setting bots to try play for them or AI giving you bot opponents when theres none available? Never encountered this

people can program bots to play certain decks for them yeah.

it allows you to rank up on ladder passively by just leaving your PC on.

they aren't super sophisticated though so it typically gets used for the most simple/efficient decks (curvestone types)
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Bots are less about ranking up and more about "earning 100g every single day". Because who has time to win 30 games every day?
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oh that's something I actually hadn't considered

makes a bit more sense in that context, too
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So I decided to buy some Old Gods and Mean Streets packs to take advantage of the legendary in <10 packs change before they rotate out.

Wanted to get some cool stuff like N'zoth or something but ended up opening Huhuran and Genzo. Only took 7 packs total to get them though.
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Man I remember opening Huhuran day of release and being super excited about it. It was kinda ok back in the CotW days around ONiK but even then it was kinda slow. And now we just have the way less clunky rare!
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MariaTaylor posted...

yeah I couldn't imagine any situation in which prince 3 would be anything other than worthless

why would you want to become a 3/3 copy of something for 3 mana? it's just totally inefficient

if you want to copy the stats for cheap, then turning into a 3/3 nullifies that effect

if you want a cheap way to create an extra token with an effect, then being 3 mana 3/3 defeats the purpose

better to either copy the stats of the target (a la faceless manipulator), or make cheap 1/1's (like a shadowcaster or the priest card that clones your minions)

It's a potential OTK piece. The problem is, there's no deck in standard that it fits into. Highlander Priest comes close, but Valen + him is 10 mana already, so (assuming you've already gotten both combo pieces) that's only 2 + 4 + 8 = 14 damage. If you managed to have a Radiant Elemental stick to the board, then toss in a holy smite and that's 30, but...

actually if I had Prince 3 I would totally try to make this work right about now >_>
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dowolf posted...

MariaTaylor posted...

yeah I couldn't imagine any situation in which prince 3 would be anything other than worthless

why would you want to become a 3/3 copy of something for 3 mana? it's just totally inefficient

if you want to copy the stats for cheap, then turning into a 3/3 nullifies that effect

if you want a cheap way to create an extra token with an effect, then being 3 mana 3/3 defeats the purpose

better to either copy the stats of the target (a la faceless manipulator), or make cheap 1/1's (like a shadowcaster or the priest card that clones your minions)

It's a potential OTK piece. The problem is, there's no deck in standard that it fits into. Highlander Priest comes close, but Valen + him is 10 mana already, so (assuming you've already gotten both combo pieces) that's only 2 + 4 + 8 = 14 damage. If you managed to have a Radiant Elemental stick to the board, then toss in a holy smite and that's 30, but...

actually if I had Prince 3 I would totally try to make this work right about now >_>

Why would you use Prince 3 in Highlander when you can use Mirage Caller and then be able to use 3 drops in your deck?
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VeryInsane posted...

Why would you use Prince 3 in Highlander when you can use Mirage Caller and then be able to use 3 drops in your deck?

lol prince 3
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for the luls.

Is there any other reason? Besides forgetting Mirage Caller exists, obv.
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I mean you'd be sacrificing Glimmeroot/Death/Acolyte/Tar Creeper which are all great cards

Well that's not as many as I thought but man Razakus without Death would be so weak
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I saw a Hysteria video where he did 320 damage from hand using Velen and Prince 3. It did require a couple turns of Thaurissan because he managed to make a full board of (mostly) Velens before playing Mind Blast for 5 * 2^6.
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DK ranking like almost two months since they've been out

1) Anduin
2) Malf
3) Gul'dan
4) Thrall

Bit of a gap
5) Jaina I think?
6) Rexxar

Another gap
7) Garrosh
8) Valeera
9) Uther

Though all 9 are at least good and definitely playable
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VeryInsane posted...

I mean you'd be sacrificing Glimmeroot/Death/Acolyte/Tar Creeper which are all great cards

Well that's not as many as I thought but man Razakus without Death would be so weak

Glimmerroot is one of the best non combo cards in the mirror
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Thrall is fantastic

Comes out the earliest and completely affects your board

I mean I guess he is a product of an already high tier 2 deck but man does he give the deck some extra juice
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I'm surprised at people thinking Warlock is that good. feels kinda bad to me. I mean IF you draw a good number of Demons early on AND you draw Gul'dan on curve and play him right on turn 10 it can be a pretty amazing swing. normally though he's in the bottom 4 cards of my deck and I get obliterated by literally everything.
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MariaTaylor posted...

I'm surprised at people thinking Warlock is that good. feels kinda bad to me. I mean IF you draw a good number of Demons early on AND you draw Gul'dan on curve and play him right on turn 10 it can be a pretty amazing swing. normally though he's in the bottom 4 cards of my deck and I get obliterated by literally everything.

He has a N'Zoth style battlecry and turns your hero power into an extremely potent weapon.

Not to mention there's Midrange Zoo lists being run now that run him. Imagine Doomguards coming from Gul'dan.

Also it's not too hard to get some value from Thrall even from like two minions. Even a Thing From Below becomes an 8 drop
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yeah I think it's just more of an issue with luck. I'm not exaggerating when I say he's almost always in the bottom 4 cards of my deck. at least in control vs control matches. which are the ones I typically struggle to win. aggro is usually a coin toss based on their early game draw and how good my answers are, I'm fine with that.

the control matches are just really frustrating because I always end the game feeling like I basically should have won but I got screwed by some really, really bad draw RNG. like stuff that should only happen about 10% of the time is regularly happening. Gnomeferatu also tends to hit cycle cards way more often than she reasonably should. I mean most people are only running like 2-4 draw cards and I somehow hit them around 50% of the time in control matches despite decks having 30 cards.
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it's not to hit their win condition, it's to win in fatigue.
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that's why hitting cycle so often is so frustrating.

gnomeferatu should ALMOST ALWAYS put me 2 cards ahead. around 90% of the time.

instead it inexplicably keeps hitting cards that draw my opponent cards. so it either ends up balancing out to 0 instead of giving me +1. or, worse, it hits cards that draw multiple cards, and I end up at -1 instead of +1.
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https://twitter.com/Liquid_hsdog/status/913326905109004288

I mean, sometimes it's good?
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and this is compounded by Gul'dan hiding on the bottom of my deck so often. I need to pull him early because I don't want to reach the bottom of my deck until after my opponent has reached the bottom of their deck. once again this shouldn't be an issue most of the time. I should reasonably expect to draw Gul'dan at some point during most matches. instead, I often get to the last 4 cards or even the last card without ever drawing him and then lose as a result. like, straight up, I would still be alive right now if I had that extra 5 armor and the ability to drain 3 life every turn. but instead I just die because the one card that would allow me to stay in the game is nowhere to be found.

I'm actually pretty salty after playing this deck for just a few days. specifically because the deck IS fun to play but it's almost impossible to win, even though it seems like I shouldn't be doing nearly as bad as I am. more like I've just had a REALLY bad string of luck in the small sample size of games I have played. but the frustration is getting to the level where I don't even want to bother with the deck anymore.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Warlock trying to win with fatigue is a terrible idea. It can't gain infinite life to keep going like other fatigue decks.

THEORETICALLY I should be able to gain 6 net life per turn by hitting my opponent for 3 damage and gaining 3 life every turn. and once they run out of cards they start taking increasingly large hits of fatigue damage. it's not intuitive but it works, trust me. I've beaten Jade Druid with this deck. it passes the benchmark for at least being able to compete. I only lose automatically to dead man's hand, which isn't really that common to see in the meta.

the problem is that in practice I just am not having any luck drawing the cards that I need in the specific matches where I need them the most. so like my "spread" of luck is just arranged in a really shitty way.

matches that I'll win no matter what: I get lucky, but the good luck doesn't do much for me
matches that I'll lose no matter what: I get lucky, but it doesn't matter because I lose anyway
matches that will be difficult to win: this is where all of my bad luck seems to be going, causing me to lose a lot of matches that I should have a shot at winning
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I'm not super against a fatigue package because it's probably one of the few ways you are going to beat Razakus Priest (Or Jade Druid, for that matter)

Your deck becomes way less flexible, however.
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great example, I literally just queued into THIS match right after going on that rant.



played against a tempo rogue who played TRIPLE KELESETH on turn 4 and I was still able to hold him off all the way to fatigue. the deck is that good at stalling. but, just as luck would have it, bloodreaver Gul'dan was the 5th to last card in my deck.

the bottom four cards were:
Voidwalker
Voidwalker
Despicable Dredlord
Abyssal Enforcer

so basically my entire Bloodreaver package was at the very bottom of the deck and killed any chance I had at being able to potentially win the game, despite doing so well up to that point. two Voidwalkers in the first half of the game would have been great to help stall, and bringing them back here would have put enough of a wall between us that I could have chipped away at his minions with my hero power. instead, just nope. also didn't draw Prince Valanar until it was way too late to play him.

the deck can essentially only run out of steam if you don't draw your Bloodreaver in the first 20-25 cards. and I consistently keep finding him in the bottom 4 or 5.
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but when I queue into Pirate Warrior I draw it right away and get killed before turn 10. it's just a case of really bad mismatched draw over a small number of games. but really frustrating.
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and here I am with Raza on 5 and Anduin on 8 like six games in a row
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I just topdecked Keleseth turn 1, with coin. And Had Shadowstep in hand.

I am the king of draw luck bow down to me
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following game went much better

this is what it looks like when the draw is average and the deck "works"



I still had 5 cards in my deck

so he has limited resources and will take 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (for 15 total damage) before I even start running out of resources. he conceded shortly after this, despite still having Lich King and getting Frostmourne. all because Bloodreaver was "any position other than the very bottom of my deck"

gnomeferatu represents 2 extra ticks of fatigue once we get to this stage. so she's actually a pretty important part of the deck. only downside is that you do have to draw her before they run out of cards. if there's nothing to mill she doens't actually deal fatigue damage directly. that has only come up in one game though.
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Gul'dan is excellent in just about every warlock deck that runs him. If anyone is actually considering placing him in the lower half of the DK rankings, they don't understand the card. That and Anduin are the only two that indisputably have to go to the top of the list. Malfurion is bland, but very functional. I've seen some people put him as #1, and I get the argument, but I'd probably say 3.

Rexxar is amazing, but sometimes the hero power replacement is actually a detriment.
Valeera forces you to essentially burn a turn playing her, but if you get her online before the end of your deck, she's amazing.
Thrall sucks if you don't have the board. Granted, my shaman opponents never seem to not have the board, while I never have it when I play shaman and Thrall always floats to the bottom of my deck, but my opinions have not been favorable.
I don't see the love for Garrosh at all. It's basically get a good weapon, and pitch your life gain. The weapon is pretty great, though.
So is Uther's. The hero power is only good for kooky combos usually, but it *is* a strict upgrade unless you have a quartermaster or something.
Jaina can take over a game under the right circumstances, but most of the time she's just "summon a 3/6 elemental and force your opponent to make trades more awkwardly."
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Maria, scrounge up 400 dust and make a second Twisting Nether.

this is my dream right now, trust me. I think my winrate will go up 10% when I do. not even exaggerating.
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