FFDragon posted... TheRock1525 posted... Is this a personal question or a question towards my Shepard? Cause my Shepard destroyed Maelon's data.
...neither? It's a comparison to how ill-gotten knowledge it still knowledge and how you're suggesting that it just all be discarded, despite the good it can bring, because of its source.
Also StarChild hits you over the head several times that Control will save organics and is the selfless, while Destroy will just prolong things for a cycle or two and is the selfish choice. Yet he shows you a Blue TIM and a Red Anderson. It's all supposed to be shades of grey across the board, and is what I thought was the whole point of the ending no matter what theory you subscribed to. It just has different implications if you think it's indoc or played straight, but the core idea is the same.
The problem is that I don't operate under "the ends justify the means" in gaming. It's a little different in real life but my character never allows awful things to happen if they are a means to an end.
I think you're not getting how low I think of TIM in this game. He's the scummiest of scum. Therefore, anything that he would be favorable towards in the end would not be something I would agree with. So it's hard for me to say "he's trying to trick your Shepard" when he picks the one option in the ME world I would never trust under any circumstances.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
And for the record, while I think TIM was wrong in his methods I believe he was right in his concept. He didn't believe Shepard's soldier mentality would work in the end (something confirmed by StarChild) and sought out an alternative solution (a solution which StarChild approves of). The means to get to his end were horrible, but that doesn't mean that his end wasn't the right one.
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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE] http://img.imgcake.com/finegifdy.gif
theawesomestevr posted... As was said previously, just because he decided that the ends justified the means, that doesn't mean that the end wasn't still the correct one.
god dammit
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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE] http://img.imgcake.com/finegifdy.gif
So again, a very basic difference in ideologies. We can keep going around in this circle for hours.
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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE] http://img.imgcake.com/finegifdy.gif
Actually let's take this color business a little earlier, and further support the s***ty writing and f***ing with the player theory... Why is shooting TIM a renegade action when doing so saves Anderson?
I'm not saying that with any venom either Rock, just in case my text doesn't convey it very well. We just having differing opinions on the very, very core concepts of things which fan out and color our perspectives on just about everything else.
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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE] http://img.imgcake.com/finegifdy.gif
And even earlier, why is defending yourself from whatever-the-f***-his-name-is a renegade action? An awesome renegade action, but a renegade action none the less.
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Raka's drawing based on my username... http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr345/Rakaputra/Ray.png
From: FFDragon | #147 Yeah, we're not going to REACH A CONSENSUS on this because you have your feelings rooted firmly in the character and I have mine rooted firmly in the concept.
I have largely found out that arguing with Rock is by and far the biggest waste of time you could ever indulge in. He will never ever stop defending whatever he thinks and he won't change his mind either.
No offense to Rock, I'm glad you have your beliefs and everything. But that is why I have not been taking part in this discussion.
-- ~Halo There is no Crane, only Scarecrow! http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3739/scarecrowq.jpg
I think people still keep missing the key point I'm trying to bring up.
In the video during the confrontation between TIM, Shepard, and Anderson, why does the Indoctrinated part of his mind manifest itself as TIM? Why pick a figure that is loathsome and untrustworthy if the goal is to trick Shepard? How would it be hard for Shepard to resist something he's spent the whole game largely fighting against? That's more important than anything: the physical manifestation of the Indoctrinated Mind is something that Shepard could easily identify as hostile and would reject outright rather easily.
I have largely found out that arguing with Rock is by and far the biggest waste of time you could ever indulge in. He will never ever stop defending whatever he thinks and he won't change his mind either.
No offense to Rock, I'm glad you have you're beliefs and everything. But that is why I have not been taking part in this discussion.
This is not unique to me and is true to pretty much every discussion. I believe something, and give my evidence to support it. Other people support something, and give their evidence to support it. It's not about "convincing people" or "winning a debate" it's about expressing your opinion and why you do or do not believe in it.
I didn't want to watch the video for this very reason, but you guys begged me to. Then I watched it and disagreed with it, and I posted my opinions why. And now it's making me not want to come into these topics because now I'm stuck focusing on the 1% of the game we disagree about instead of talking about the other 99%, and I spend the whole time trying to defend my position rather than discussing other elements of the game.
And don't get me wrong, it hasn't been disrespectful or hostile or any of that, but I don't want this to go on forever because it's taken up almost 200 posts in this topic after taking up a significant chunk of the last topic.
Edit: meant "hasn't." Hasn't been disrespectful.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
I missed two days, so I take the blame for this session.
TheRock1525 posted... How would it be hard for Shepard to resist something he's spent the whole game largely fighting against? That's more important than anything: the physical manifestation of the Indoctrinated Mind is something that Shepard could easily identify as hostile and would reject outright rather easily.
The video explains this. Shepard 'wins' against the indoctrinated part of his mind no matter what you choose (except for that one choice that gets you a CMF), and because of that he lets go of his willpower (Anderson dying), leaving him completely open to suggestion (in StarChild, and why he is so quick to agree to everything StarChild says).
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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE] http://img.imgcake.com/finegifdy.gif
The video explains this. Shepard 'wins' against the indoctrinated part of his mind no matter what you choose (except for that one choice that gets you a CMF), and because of that he lets go of his willpower (Anderson dying), leaving him completely open to suggestion (in StarChild, and why he is so quick to agree to everything StarChild says).
Except, and I'm watching the video right now, Shepard is the willpower, not Anderson.
"Anderson speaks to Shepard, not the Illusive Man. The resisting mind tries to make the will aware of the indoctrination attempt."
So, when Anderson dies, Shepard isn't losing his will, he's losing his resisting mind. And with TIM dead, he's losing his indoctrinated mind. So all that is left of Shepard should be his willpower.
So if that's true, shouldn't Shepard be less impressionable when heading up to the Catalyst?
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
You are right about the willpower part I got that mixed up, but the video still explains it in the lower text piece by piece as it goes through.
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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE] http://img.imgcake.com/finegifdy.gif
Another interesting thing is that the video labels Anderson as Paragon and TIM as Renegade.
This is kinda the point I was bringing up about the choices, where you see the ghosts of Anderson and TIM when choosing destroy or control. Even the creator of this video is acknowledging there is a clear good/evil intent between the two, which makes their appearance as ghosts in the second part that much more obvious on which one you should choose.
See, by all intents the Reapers aren't just softening up Shepard for next round. The video even explicitly states "They (the Reapers) underestimate Shepard's willpower." To me, that implies that this was a legit attempt to overtake Shepard's mind, not really an attempt to make him more compliant in the next part. There might not have even been a planned next part. They just assumed that they could take control of Shepard's mind by brute force, not worrying about how "effective" they needed to be. While I don't agree with the IT, THIS makes a helluva lot more sense and explains what happened a lot more. Because Shepard CAN fail this, he can become fully indoctrinated at this stage. Like I said, it was pants-on-head stupid to think that using TIM would trick Shepard that easily, but considering the opening of the scene suggests that they underestimate Shepard, at least it makes more sense.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
HeroDelTiempo17 posted... Oh what exactly happens if you give TIM the Collector Base?
I thought it was weird that not once in the game could you agree with the Illusive Man's plan to control Reapers, but it shows up at the end as one of the choices. But I blew up the base. Does that change anything? <_<
Not that I think it really would affect much....
You end up getting the Reaper Brain added to your War Assets instead of the Reaper Heart after you storm TIM's base, which has a higher point value actually. Also some minor dialogue changes when you talk to TIM. That's it as far as I can tell.
As far as Control being blue and Destroy being red, I kinda think it may represent the choice the Catalyst wants you to make as opposed to the one it doesn!t want you to make. If you believe the Catalyst is deliberately deceiving and misleading Shepard, it kinda makes sense.
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"I couldn't stand a day without a past or future. I need to live each moment to keep fighting here and now."
OK, here's the one big question that I need answered and I don't remember the video mentioning it:
Why doesn't the Prothean VI recognize Shepard as Indoctrinated? It recognized Kai Leng rather quickly and hid itself. If the argument is that because Shepard had so much contact with Reaper tech over the course of the series, why didn't they have enough of an effect on Shepard for him to become even partially indoctrinated by the time of his contact with Vendetta? It would mean that his short time on Earth had more of an effect in terms of indoctrinating him (going from unrecognizable indoctrination to all-out battle for his mind) than anything prior to that, including actually going inside a Reaper. It seems odd to argue "it accumulated" and yet it went unnoticed by Vendetta. At the very least, Vendetta should have noticed SOME level of indoctrination.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
Also the issue for Shepard and company isn't necessarily that they believed control was wrong. It's that they didn't believe control was possible. Plus, Shepard would control the Reapers in a completely different manner than TIM would.
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"I couldn't stand a day without a past or future. I need to live each moment to keep fighting here and now."
LeonhartFour posted... HeroDelTiempo17 posted... Oh what exactly happens if you give TIM the Collector Base?
I thought it was weird that not once in the game could you agree with the Illusive Man's plan to control Reapers, but it shows up at the end as one of the choices. But I blew up the base. Does that change anything? <_<
Not that I think it really would affect much....
You end up getting the Reaper Brain added to your War Assets instead of the Reaper Heart after you storm TIM's base, which has a higher point value actually. Also some minor dialogue changes when you talk to TIM. That's it as far as I can tell.
As far as Control being blue and Destroy being red, I kinda think it may represent the choice the Catalyst wants you to make as opposed to the one it doesn!t want you to make. If you believe the Catalyst is deliberately deceiving and misleading Shepard, it kinda makes sense.
See, I think that you can think this and NOT believe it's indoctrination. I always thought the physical manifestations of TIM and Anderson had nothing to do with what was right or what was wrong, but rather what each of them would do. The reason the Catalyst favors "control" over "destroy" is because it believes the Reapers are the right solution.
Something interesting I learned: his dialogue changes depending on your EMS. If it's high enough, he's friendly and nice (says "Wake up" and "You have choices, more than you know."). Whereas if it's low, he's basically a dick to you (says "Why are you here?" and "You have choices, more than you deserve.").
Interesting that it reflects your EMS and not your reputation and/or paragon/renegade rating.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
LeonhartFour posted... Also the issue for Shepard and company isn't necessarily that they believed control was wrong. It's that they didn't believe control was possible. Plus, Shepard would control the Reapers in a completely different manner than TIM would.
Hence why I said earlier I believe it's more Paragon than destroy, IMO.
The only problem I had was with why they would trick you into it with the Illusive Man's ghost. If that's the option they want you to pick, you wouldn't do anything to convince them otherwise. You make it bright blue, you make it sound wonderful, but you sure as hell don't attach TIM to any vision of it.
See, it's all about how you perceive it in a literal sense vs. how you perceive it in the Indoctrination Theory. In the literal sense, I'm fine with it. As despicable as TIM is, I could see how control would be a decent option and possibly a better option than destroy. In the IT, the StarChild is specifically trying to goad you into a certain direction, any slip-up becomes a lot more obvious. It's why TIM's appearance becomes that much more important. The Reapers are essentially letting slip something that could cause Shepard to not pick control.
I hope this makes sense what I'm saying.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
So that PTSD asari in the hospital... I finally finished her conversation chain. I'm not exactly sure what happened at the end. Was Hilary indoctrinated or did she die or what?
-- ~Halo Live, fight, survive, as a family. http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7469/batfamily.jpg
Uh... yeah. Is there more to it? I found the thing in the Spectre offices to allow her to carry a gun, and I already know she kills herself. So it seems from reading that that she actually killed Hilary to avoid being caught?
You know how Joker talks about his family that lives on a farm way out on the outskirts of civilized space? You know that PTSD Asari at the Citadel Hospital that talks about how she was stranded on a farm way out on the edges of civilized space?
The girl she rescued, accompanied, ended up killing the indoctrinated family of, and eventually murdered to keep her crying from alerting nearby enemies was named Hillary.
Joker's sister is named Hillary.
We spent a ton of the game in the room with the person responsible for killing Joker's entire family, and we didn't even know it'd even really happened.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
So she killed a defenseless girl to save herself? That's dumb. And she kills herself anyway. You'd think she would have tried her best to save the girl.
B****.
-- ~Halo You're not the brightest. http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/907/bandfinisher.jpg
Also, Joker says her sister is 15 and the PTSD asari guesses she was 15.
From the official wiki:
A few weeks before the battle on Thessia, the Reapers hit the colony of Tiptree, where Joker's father and sister, Hilary, are located. Liara later informs Joker that her Shadow Broker network has news on refugee ships from Tiptree landing on salarian territory. Even though the reports don't come with names and claim that the refugees consist "mostly of children", Joker clings to the hope that at least his sister, being only fifteen, is among them. Liara supports him in this belief, claiming that "right now, he needs to take all the hope he can get". However, it is hinted by an asari suffering from PTSD on the Citadel that Joker's sister is in fact among the dead, as the asari mentions "having to shoot a farm girl on Tiptree" to prevent Banshees from discovering the group. She recalls the girl "wanted to be a pilot when she grows up. Her name was Hilary."
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
ShadowHalo17 posted... Uh... yeah. Is there more to it? I found the thing in the Spectre offices to allow her to carry a gun, and I already know she kills herself. So it seems from reading that that she actually killed Hilary to avoid being caught?
That's dumb.
And wasn't that Joker's sister?
It was. She kills Joker's sister because Neaira was right outside the barn and she wouldn't stop crying because of her broken leg. She chose her own survival because she figured they'd both die if they got caught. Obviously the experience traumatizes her because she realizes how awful it was for her to have to do what she did.
Not sure what's dumb about it. Kill Hillary, don't get caught. Don't kill Hillary, get caught, both die.
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"I couldn't stand a day without a past or future. I need to live each moment to keep fighting here and now."
I sure as s*** let her have the gun because she wants to die anyway. And she should have died on Tiptree trying to save Hilary. Who also may have died as well, but at least it would have given her a chance.
-- ~Halo Rolling around at the speed of sound. http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/2417/sonicspeed.jpg
No, there's no chance Hillary survives if they get caught. She's an average human with a broken leg and neither of them have weapons. Assume Neaira is a Banshee and you can imagine how that would go.
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"I couldn't stand a day without a past or future. I need to live each moment to keep fighting here and now."
Uh, if you're surround by banshees and all you have a pistol and the girl crying next is going to alert them, you'd have to have no sense of self-preservation to simply do nothing.
It's quite easy to judge the asari's decision to, you know, murder a 15 year old, but there was no way that they were going to live through it unless Hilary stopped crying. Those banshees would have attacked and they would have killed both of them easily.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
LeonhartFour posted... HeroDelTiempo17 posted... As far as Control being blue and Destroy being red, I kinda think it may represent the choice the Catalyst wants you to make as opposed to the one it doesn!t want you to make. If you believe the Catalyst is deliberately deceiving and misleading Shepard, it kinda makes sense.
Or it mirrors the decision you make at the end of Legion's loyalty mission. Control = Paragon, Destroy = Renegade. Not necessarily a plot point, just unnecessary symbolism.
-- SomeC - sheer explosives since meeting that crazy hobo. SuperNiceDog. Best friend.
She could have tried knocking her out, if possible. Maybe... cover her mouth? If the enemies did find them, then she could have killed Hilary out of kindness and then herself. No reason for her to have lived through that since she just kills herself anyway.
-- ~Halo Give into the Night. http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a125/ShadowHalo/haloshadow1.gif
ShadowHalo17 posted... She could have tried knocking her out, if possible. Maybe... cover her mouth? If the enemies did find them, then she could have killed Hilary out of kindness and then herself. No reason for her to have lived through that since she just kills herself anyway.
Again, you are oversimplifying the situation here. I don't think her mindset was kill girl, get out alive, commit suicide later. She was in a desperate situation and did what she thought she had to do to survive, but the weight of that decision proved to be too much for her after the fact.
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"I couldn't stand a day without a past or future. I need to live each moment to keep fighting here and now."
I'd like to point out that knocking out people isn't really a good idea, as being unconscious for extended periods of time from blunt force trauma has serious medical risks (bleeding on the brain, for example). Not to mention she'd have to be carried the rest of the way.
While covering the mouth of a young child is relatively easy, I assume a panicked 15 year old would be much harder to control. It's entirely possible she did try to cover her mouth, but the girl struggled free and wouldn't stop crying.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
TheRock1525 posted... It seems odd to argue "it accumulated" and yet it went unnoticed by Vendetta. At the very least, Vendetta should have noticed SOME level of indoctrination.
Not really. Prothean VIs couldn't detect latent indoctrination only the full blown kind, as Javik says that it was sleeper indoc agents that caused the collapse of the stasis program.
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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE] http://img.imgcake.com/finegifdy.gif
FFDragon posted... TheRock1525 posted... It seems odd to argue "it accumulated" and yet it went unnoticed by Vendetta. At the very least, Vendetta should have noticed SOME level of indoctrination.
Not really. Prothean VIs couldn't detect latent indoctrination only the full blown kind, as Javik says that it was sleeper indoc agents that caused the collapse of the stasis program.
Yeah, the Prothean VI not detecting any signs of indoctrination in Shepard is the biggest flaw in the theory, in my mind. But, the rebuttal about Prothean sleeper agents sabotaging the stasis program unnoticed might help explain it. I guess the VI doesn't have to be infallible.
But, again, guys, you all need to understand something.
There is no way Bioware actually intended that the ending sequences were about Shepard being indoctrinated. They may have made the game and then afterwards thought, "Oh, wow, guys, listen to this plausible Indoctrination Theory!" By all means, it's a great theory and way of explaining the end of the game. But, it simply isn't what actually happened. I love the theory and would actually like it if Bioware made it canon and expanded the ending (since the Indoctrination Theory isn't actually an ending unto itself). That said, you all must understand that this is the fans looking for something other than the endings we got. The mere epilogue, alone (the old man sharing the story of the Shepard) is completely unfounded and out of place with the theory--unless it, also, was all in Shepard's mind.
This game is wonderful, and the theory makes a lot of sense--but it absolutely was not the original meaning or intention of the ending.
-- Women come and go, but Metal Gear is forever. Perfect Odds A Cappella ~ http://i43.tinypic.com/34pdhc7.jpg
futuresuperstar posted... This game is wonderful, and the theory makes a lot of sense--but it absolutely was not the original meaning or intention of the ending.
Yep. The theory is interesting, it's a great place to start off the real ending, but this wasn't BioWare's intention. I haven't seen any indication that the ending was meant to be anything other than what it was, for better or worse. I'm all for the Catalyst being a mind game, though, because he was the most damaging part of the ending.
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."
Bahahaha, I decided to watch the Angry Joe review of Mass Effect 3. The first minute of it effectively shows every emotion that I and probably everyone else went through while playing through the game. Right up to the end, where he says what I imagine everyone said once the credits started rolling.
Well when you feel up to it, there's a couple videos you should watch. The top 10 reasons we hate the ending video that I just posted. And then another one.
-- ~Halo There is no Crane, only Scarecrow! http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3739/scarecrowq.jpg