Back to the crying for help argument it's not about "decent" people being around unless there is another group of guys around no one is going to do anything. People aren't brave. There are tons of examples of crimes happening in broad daylight with crowds around already posted in this thread. You haven't pointed out an example of a crime where someone does help out. 1 person crimes don't count it needs to have the mob mentality/group factor.
Crying for help wouldn't have just been pointless it would have actually worsened the situation for him. If there is someone around that is going to help they will help either way if there isn't then all that does is make the bully want to hurt him even worse for being scared.
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Starcraft is my life, so without it I wouldn't exist. - Artosis Congratulations to SuperNiceDog for winning the 2011 Guru contest.
Bully's still alive if he didn't continuously terrorize, for (as far as we can tell) no legitimate reason, the bullied. Fair, next.
And yeah, punch to the back of the head is no laughing matter. I definitely feel bad for the kid, his name's going to show up in search engines forever, his life is basically over. Will need to move to a new school, change his name, deal with the trauma of having killed someone. With a lot of therapy and a support structure maybe he can, but I don't know. Maybe he would've eventually committed suicide had the bullying continued... I'm just afraid he would now after that outcome (though it was a year ago).
For everyone that's afraid of a slippery slope precedent being set, there's an obvious pattern of bullying and history in this case, which the 2nd linked article provides even more backup & justification for the stabbing. And hell, if someone can trick you into beating them up 9 times so they can stab you the 10th time, maybe you deserve it.
There's still one user who hasn't shown up to whiteknight on the bully's behalf so this is really a tag waiting for their arrival/thread derailment.
Also I should note I do think there were other ways to handle this but the ways you have suggested are dumb. As soon as he got off the bus the only option was stabbing him or letting himself get beaten so badly he would have been hospitalized. The ideal situation probably would have been telling his teachers and switching schools. That is the last thing a kid is going to think of because switching schools ****ing sucks. I switched schools a ridiculous amount throughout my school career and I hated it. Maybe he could get the bully forced into counseling or something and not have to switch. These are only possible before getting off the bus though. Maybe before even leaving school on the bus depending on the driver.
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Starcraft is my life, so without it I wouldn't exist. - Artosis Congratulations to SuperNiceDog for winning the 2011 Guru contest.
Back to the crying for help argument it's not about "decent" people being around unless there is another group of guys around no one is going to do anything.
You'd be surprised how scared kids like this can get of authority or consequences. Why do people bully people smaller than them? In part it's because they "know" there is nothing the victim can do to fight back against them, whether it's because they're smaller and weaker or if they're in a group. These kids are cowards, that much was confirmed when they attacked this smaller guy while in a group, so I'm not sure they wouldn't just run off if it looked like the police were going to get involved or something. It's not like WWE where one good guy will be getting beaten down by 5 or 6 bad guys and a good guy will run in and they'll dramatically work together to clear the ring. >_>
In any case, I don't need to provide examples of people helping out because that wasn't my f***ing point. It's an option. We've sat here for an hour analyzing whether or not it would have worked or not, the kid did not have that time. And like I said, there's a bloody reason why a woman is told to blow a whistle or scream for help if she's going to get raped, and the same principle kind of applies here.
I think my point has been lost under a sea of semantics here.
Basically it comes down to this: I'm all for standing up to a bully, the bully got what was coming to him I suppose, I just don't think anyone had to die - and I don't think the kid would have died had it continued.
I also think the bullied kid being hospitalized is the lesser of two evils over somebody dying, even if it's a massive douchebag like the bully, and that the bullied kid didn't explore every option that didn't involve the bully dying. That said, I'm not sure the bullied kid had the intent to kill and I guess I'll take the court's word on the nature of the 12 stabs.
From: Wanglicious | #200 i'd totally be trying to kill him if i was the kid. dude followed me, punched me in the back of the head, has his friends with him, and are beating the crap out of me..
Don't forget that he and his friends all kept telling you that this is the day that you are going to be killed by them, after being routinely beaten by this kid.
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Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1 Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit!
So, the kid tried to avoid the fight at least twice, then resorted to extreme self-defense. I'd say stabbing the guy 12 times is a little excessive (somewhere around 5 would get the point across).
I hope word of this gets around and makes bullies think twice.
All in all, wow.
-- Proud member of the Global Defence Force. http://gifninja.com/animatedgifs/120003/phoenixtrio.gif
<_<; personally i see the lesser of two evils being 'dead bully' and i think that's really where the distinction lies between you and... most everyone else.
granted, i also am more of an outlier - or at least the only vocal one on this page - who thinks "good riddance" to the dead guy and don't see it as an evil at all!
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XIII_rocks posted... I also think the bullied kid being hospitalized is the lesser of two evils over somebody dying, even if it's a massive douchebag like the bully, and that the bullied kid didn't explore every option that didn't involve the bully dying. That said, I'm not sure the bullied kid had the intent to kill and I guess I'll take the court's word on the nature of the 12 stabs.
Someone innocent getting almost beaten to death is a lesser evil than someone assaulting another person unprovoked getting killed in self-defense?
Wow. I hope you'll understand if I respectfully disagree.
....five stabs. seriously. "I'm getting the crap beat out of me. I will now count the number of times I stab him to make sure he understands that I do not wish to have a fist lodged in the back of my head and do not appreciate such actions."
vs.
"he's going to kill me. STAB. he still wants his friends to help. STABSTABSTABSTABSTABSTABSTABSTABSTABSTABSTABSTABSTABST-- oh. i think he's dead and the other guys aren't hitting me anymore."
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The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.
I also think the bullied kid being hospitalized is the lesser of two evils over somebody dying
to add to this. If we're ranking them:
Bully being hospitalized > bullied kid being hospitalized > bully dying > bullied kid dying. None of them desirable outcomes, but that's the order. School bullies don't deserve to die, for me. I guess I just have a weird perception about life though.
And I can't believe you're being so slow to jump to the same conclusion. The dude basically stated his intent to hospitalize this kid, and then acted on said intent. What more does he need to do?
Bullies say that s*** all the time. Their intent is to make the kid feel low, make him feel scared or worried about life. If every bully actually carried through his threats, school attendance would be lower than it ever has been.
XIII_rocks posted... I don't see running as an unreasonable option. I mean it's even possible that they wouldn't bother chasing him, and would just laugh.
Once again, you're asking someone to gamble in dangerous situations. What's with you and caring more about the aggressor than the victim?
Idk, I'd need a better idea of the area. I mean if it was somewhere that was in some way congested, crying for help was sure as hell an option.
Which would have done....?
Bullies love it when their victim cries for help, it encourages them to keep doing what they're doing. Not to mention that only works when you're around enough people who can help you.
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You'll get what's coming to you Ulti, wait and see. - Takfloyd_mkII__
Basically it comes down to this: I'm all for standing up to a bully, the bully got what was coming to him I suppose, I just don't think anyone had to die - and I don't think the kid would have died had it continued.
Naturally one doesn't want anyone to die like this, but that's not the question. It happened. The question is whether you sentence the killer or let him go. Granted, that's also a question which has already been decided.
bully being dead > bully being hospitalized >>> bullied kid being hospitalized >>>>> bullied kid dead.
either of the first two are desirable considering the circumstances. only reason the first two are in that order is because there's probably more legal troubles for the kid if the bully's alive. if on the other hand bullied kid would get more out of it, then swap 'em.
pretty much don't care about the dead kid and think he got what he asked for and deserved.
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The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.
From: XIII_rocks | #211 And I can't believe you're being so slow to jump to the same conclusion. The dude basically stated his intent to hospitalize this kid, and then acted on said intent. What more does he need to do?
Bullies say that s*** all the time.
He's beaten the s*** out of him routinely.
He said "Today is the day that you are going to die." His friends all said the same thing. He got off the bus early to avoid them, and they all followed, still telling them that he is going to die today. They hit him, and still tell him that he is going to die today.
Why would you not react under the impression that this kid and his friends were going to either kill you or put you close to death?
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Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1 Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit!
...Yeah I'm not up for counting or putting a specific number of stabs. 12 just seemed excessive to me on a first impression, that's all.
Someone innocent getting almost beaten to death is a lesser evil than someone assaulting another person unprovoked getting killed in self-defense?
Wow. I hope you'll understand if I respectfully disagree.
More or less, yeah. When it comes down to it, death is a horrible thing that you can't recover from. Being hospitalized (probably) isn't. And the list of people I want to die is incredibly, incredibly small. That said, I'd be prepared to blur the line if the kid suffered something more lasting and dehibiltating like brain damage, because then you've drastically reduced the quality of said life.
I have no sympathy for the bully and back the judges decision 100%. Granted 1 stab might have given the message that he was serious and might have ended the situation without a life lost, sometimes it's just reaction, plain and simple.
Wanglicious posted... ....five stabs. seriously. "I'm getting the crap beat out of me. I will now count the number of times I stab him to make sure he understands that I do not wish to have a fist lodged in the back of my head and do not appreciate such actions."
vs.
"he's going to kill me. STAB. he still wants his friends to help. STABSTABSTABSTABSTABSTABSTABSTABSTABSTABSTABSTABSTABST-- oh. i think he's dead and the other guys aren't hitting me anymore."
-_- I said "around," not "precisely." The idea being that after about five stabbings, the bully wouldn't want to proceed with his attack. (Or I could be wrong. 7 might have been necessary.) The best reason I can come up with for stabbing him 12 times is to shock the others out of attempting to attack as well.
-- Proud member of the Global Defence Force. http://gifninja.com/animatedgifs/120003/phoenixtrio.gif
Wedge Antilles posted... Granted 1 stab might have given the message that he was serious and might have ended the situation without a life lost
or it might not have.
I don't really like arguing over 1 stab or 10 stabs or 100 stabs. Arguing over the exact number is petty. What's necessary is fending off your attackers by any means necessary. I can't say with the evidence given if 1 stab was enough or if it wasn't. If he stabbed the guy once and he was still getting attacked, then stab again. Repeat until you're not getting attacked.
He said "Today is the day that you are going to die." His friends all said the same thing. He got off the bus early to avoid them, and they all followed, still telling them that he is going to die today. They hit him, and still tell him that he is going to die today.
Why would you not react under the impression that this kid and his friends were going to either kill you or put you close to death?
I suppose. I still haven't read the article in full, to be honest. Should probably get on that.
Not only was the judge 100% correct here, but the bully's parents should also be facing prison time for child abuse. Their absolute failure as parents is what led to his death after all.
The stab count is important if we're talking self-defence. I think after a point it theoretically goes from "self-defence" to "frenzied bloodlust, driven by murderous revenge" >_>
That said I'm prepared to take the judge's decision on this one. The way he executed the stabbing is important. I have to admit when I saw "12 stabs" my first thought was stabs like in the Psycho or something, y'know?
you'd keep stabbing until you're sure the other guy's stopped. not temporarily, permanently. he will not attack you anymore. whatever number that falls to is the number it'd only make sense to start. it's not a long time to stab, especially with a pocket knife. 12 seriously is a tame number. you don't instantly die from a stab in the chest - and hell only two were fatal. takes a while to fall into shock.
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pretty much don't care about the dead kid and think he got what he asked for and deserved.
Just to make things clear, I'm not defending the bully here. I more or less agree with this, I just think it would be better for everyone if he wasn't, y'know, dead.
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"whats a matter afried i might boobs punch you" - ertyu
You need to put yourself in the shoes of the kid XIII. It's easy for you or me to sit here, read an article, and say "well he should have done this".
But the kid has mutliple people following him saying they're going to kill him, and one has already punched him in the back of the head. When you have all this going on, you don't really have the luxury we do right now to think things through and decide how many times you should stab him to make sure he gets the message...but you don't kill him...but he won't be able to come after you...and his friends won't come after you.
oh. well if you're thinking like lunging stabs it'd make sense, but with a pocket knife, something with a blade smaller than the size of your hand - hell for some people smaller than their middle finger - it's really easy and really quick. like, think of a fruit knife. that's basically the weapon he had, both in weight and size. odds are good you're just jerking your arm/wrist back and forth.
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The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.
XIII_rocks posted... I also think the bullied kid being hospitalized is the lesser of two evils over somebody dying
to add to this. If we're ranking them:
Bully being hospitalized > bullied kid being hospitalized > bully dying > bullied kid dying. None of them desirable outcomes, but that's the order. School bullies don't deserve to die, for me. I guess I just have a weird perception about life though.
This pretty much.
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No but seriously XIII, I don't want to throw The Troll Card here. I really don't, but part of me is starting to think you're doing this for kicks. I will, however, give you the benefit of the doubt.
Let me ask you something though.. Do you know how it is to be bullied? I don't mean that lightweight teasing that goes away a week later, I mean have you truly been bullied? Do you know how it feels to have someone take delight in tormenting you just because they can? Do you know the feeling of helplessness one feels when they know they can't stop their tormentor? The feeling of hopelessness when no one wants to help you. The feeling of utter despair, when you start to believe that you "deserve" this hell? That you'll never escape it?
The hatred for your tormentor will never match the hatred you have for yourself, as the weeks turn into months and the months turn into years. Then one day you a thought comes to you for a moment that says "Is this life worth living?". Do you even have the slightest clue as to how much pain you have to keep in your heart to think such terrible thoughts? The pain that's so intense that you want to die, just so you won't have to go through another day of it? You didn't ask for any of this.... you want it to stop. But you can't stop it... you don't know how to stop it.... it won't stop... why won't it stop?
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You'll get what's coming to you Ulti, wait and see. - Takfloyd_mkII__
like after he stabbed the guy a dozen times, what'd everyone else do. i'd assume his friends prob wanted to stop him once they realized what was going on, but that might've been after he was done already.
that or they were too much in shock that the kid actually pulled a knife and killed him and got snapped into reality REAL quick. kinda surprised the kid didn't die himself.
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The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.
It's not great that the bully is dead. It's not exactly a huge loss, either. I'm neither going to revel in it nor mourn it. What's more important is that the kid being attacked successfully defended himself against the attack, and whether or not he killed the attacker in the process of doing so is not that important to me. Again, loss of human life isn't a good thing, but loss of this particular human life was probably the best outcome in this situation.
I agree that the bully was stupid if he knew the guy had a knife, but being stupid doesn't mean you "deserve" to die.What kind of backwards thinking Social Darwinists are you people! No one "deserves" to die. Period. We're not Neanderthals.
I mean, this sounds excessive from the article, but I'd have to know in context what happened. Was it something like the kid got punched and then stabbed the guy with the intent of killing him, or was the guy still punching him while being stabbed?
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From: Wedge Antilles | #227 You need to put yourself in the shoes of the kid XIII. It's easy for you or me to sit here, read an article, and say "well he should have done this".
But the kid has mutliple people following him saying they're going to kill him, and one has already punched him in the back of the head. When you have all this going on, you don't really have the luxury we do right now to think things through and decide how many times you should stab him to make sure he gets the message...but you don't kill him...but he won't be able to come after you...and his friends won't come after you.
Oh you're completely right. My issues are really that:
-people are or were acting like this was 100% OK and there is no grey area, which I don't buy -this was the kid's last resort. I mean the "you're over-analyzing this" argument works both ways, because all the people disputing the merits of running and/or crying for help could be equally guilty of that -I don't think a school bully should die because he's a bit of a violent c***. If all the violent c***s in the world died there wouldn't be many people left. I don't know, there's almost an attitude of "f*** yeah this kid!" in this topic from a lot of people, when really the killer will probably be dealing with psychological trauma and there's a grieving family out there.
No but seriously XIII, I don't want to throw The Troll Card here. I really don't, but part of me is starting to think you're doing this for kicks. I will, however, give you the benefit of the doubt.
Uh no. I can and will pull the "condescending" card on you though because that's all you've been in this topic to anyone who has even the slightest reservations about throwing their complete support behind the bully.
From: Wanglicious | #231 though i am curious in the aftermath.
like after he stabbed the guy a dozen times, what'd everyone else do. i'd assume his friends prob wanted to stop him once they realized what was going on, but that might've been after he was done already.
that or they were too much in shock that the kid actually pulled a knife and killed him and got snapped into reality REAL quick. kinda surprised the kid didn't die himself.
Yeah, actually, I've been thinking of bringing this up too but it's been kind of lost in the whole thing.
XIII_rocks posted... No but seriously XIII, I don't want to throw The Troll Card here. I really don't, but part of me is starting to think you're doing this for kicks. I will, however, give you the benefit of the doubt.
Uh no. I can and will pull the "condescending" card on you though because that's all you've been in this topic to anyone who has even the slightest reservations about throwing their complete support behind the bully.
This is a very touchy subject for me. Forgive me if I'm not as kind as I usually am, just don't expect me to apologize for how I feel about all of this.
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You'll get what's coming to you Ulti, wait and see. - Takfloyd_mkII__
if you ask for it and put yourself in a situation where a reasonable person can construct intent to kill, you deserve everything you get, even if that means your own death.
simplicity's a good thing for stuff like this. stick with logic and you can't go wrong!
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The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.
Let me ask you something though.. Do you know how it is to be bullied? I don't mean that lightweight teasing that goes away a week later, I mean have you truly been bullied? Do you know how it feels to have someone take delight in tormenting you just because they can? Do you know the feeling of helplessness one feels when they know they can't stop their tormentor? The feeling of hopelessness when no one wants to help you. The feeling of utter despair, when you start to believe that you "deserve" this hell? That you'll never escape it?
The hatred for your tormentor will never match the hatred you have for yourself, as the weeks turn into months and the months turn into years. Then one day you a thought comes to you for a moment that says "Is this life worth living?". Do you even have the slightest clue as to how much pain you have to keep in your heart to think such terrible thoughts? The pain that's so intense that you want to die, just so you won't have to go through another day of it? You didn't ask for any of this.... you want it to stop. But you can't stop it... you don't know how to stop it.... it won't stop... why won't it stop?
What I'm getting from this is "I was bullied and this kid acted out something I kind of sort of wanted to do when I was in school".
And I'm not even saying that's wrong or bad because I totally get it, but it sure as hell warps your perception of this incident.
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If I had the guess, the friends were all scared s***less and wouldn't dare going after him. They just watched their ring leader die. They were either right by his side, telling the bullied kid to go away, or running for help.
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Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1 Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit!
if you ask for it and put yourself in a situation where a reasonable person can construct intent to kill, you deserve everything you get, even if that means your own death.
simplicity's a good thing for stuff like this. stick with logic and you can't go wrong!