From: KanzarisKelshen | #050 When you're bullied, you have to make a show of force to stop getting picked on. I was picked on a lot in high school, and it only stopped when I did two things: First, grab the hair of a boy who was three years my senior and straight up pull a chunk away from his scalp to make it clear that I wasn't going to take his BS, and second literally grab a desk and threaten to bludgeon a bastard who ripped the pages off a book I was reading (and I would have gone through with it had the vice-principal not walked in right then and there so I could tell him what happened and get the jerk suspended). Lethal force is harsh, but given mob mentality and the fact that the other dude got seriously physical, I can definitely excuse the kid for protecting his own hide. Horrible things have happened to people too passive to fight back in these situations.
A desk? Use a chair, mang.
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I don't get why this is relevant. If you are going to pick a fight with someone you know nothing about for the sake of bullying, then the bully should be prepared if the guy is armed or not. It's entirely the bully's fault here.
it actually makes it worse if he thought he was unarmed, literally just attacking someone for fun because you think they can't defend themselves. I don't think he deserved to die but it is my philosophy that an aggressor must be prepared for that possibility, it's an unfortunate situation all the way around
I think a world where a any amount of violence is implicitly punishable by death is still a worse world and ultimately more violent world.
I remember someone told me that if you don't want people to speed, you just have to put a spike on the wheel in front of them. Essentially, you should make something dangerous in order to "protect" them. It's backwards and will hurt more people.
I have no problem with relatively harmless bullying, but I'm okay with this result as well. Of course the bully didn't HAVE to die and there were many better ways to resolve the situation, but I think it should be legal to defend yourself like that.
I'm really interested in seeing what the whole anti-bullying campaign's take on this will be.
-- _foolmo_ 'Most people at least try to say something funny. See foolmo's post as an example.' - The Real Truth
I think a world where a any amount of violence is implicitly punishable by death is still a worse world and ultimately more violent world.
it's not punishable by death per se, the idea is simply that people can use anything up to and including lethal force to defend themselves without having legal ramifications themselves. I'm not saying that these people all deserve to die, but the law shouldn't protect the people who are actually causing the altercation
#2 | DeathChicken | Posted 1/4/2012 1:23:18 PM | message detail | quote The guy punched him in the head. Fair
This. The kid had good reason to believe that his life was in danger and acted accordingly. Whether or not the bully "deserved" to die is irrelevant -- the kid had every right to defend himself when the bully forced a confrontation.
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From: KanzarisKelshen | #050 When you're bullied, you have to make a show of force to stop getting picked on.
False.
Well, kinda true, but force doesn't have to necessarily be physical. You can destroy a person emotionally and socially, as well, which was my preferred strategy. I've never been in a physical fight, except for once when I moved to a new neighborhood when I was like 10 and some kids called my cat stupid. That's it though.
-- _foolmo_ 'but that statement is something only an Aspergers patient would say' - UltimaterializerX
You say to "defend yourself" but the attack could be a one time thing.
Some people can be vicious with words and use them very effectively. As someone's example earlier, bullying can be product of property damage and other non violent things. A show of force is sometimes necessary to stop these behaviors. But now the bully can kill his aggressor!
foolm0ron posted... I've never been in a physical fight, except for once when I moved to a new neighborhood when I was like 10 and some kids called my cat stupid.
omg I hope you paralyzed them
-- SephirothG, channeling awesomeness from Mershiness. The Resurrection
From: foolm0ron | #062 Well, kinda true, but force doesn't have to necessarily be physical. You can destroy a person emotionally and socially, as well,
Source: every woman who has ever lived.
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pjbasis posted... As someone's example earlier, bullying can be product of property damage and other non violent things. A show of force is sometimes necessary to stop these behaviors. But now the bully can kill his aggressor!
literally defending a punk that sucker punched someone in the back of the head and had his friends help stop him from fleeing
Liquid Wind posted... literally defending a punk that sucker punched someone in the back of the head and had his friends help stop him from fleeing
b8 white knighting it up is hilarious
I don't understand why you were responding to my earlier statements with logical rebuttals based on your ideals, and now you're making some weird b8 generalizing statement.
Like I said, I was also bullied a lot in high school. If you fight back (with fists) most of the time they will stop. You might even make friends.
I don't mean to justify bullying or violence, but in no way does a school fistfight pardon a murder. Sure maybe the kid was doing it in self defense or wasn't right in the head, but that is still a life taken away, and the kid should be charged with something.
And whether or not the bully knew the kid had a knife is relevant because it gives further credence to the notion that the kid definitely did not want to fight and made every intention to warn his attacker. If the attacker knows the kid has a knife and continues attacking, that shows clear intent to maim or kill. If the bully had no knowledge of the knife, it doesn't necessarily show anything more than intent to hurt.
I also have a concealed carry permit. People with concealed carry permits are taught to only draw their weapon if it's a life or death situation. If a man threatens you and punches you in the face, you are not allowed to draw your gun and blow his brains out. Why is this kid allowed to stab this guy 12 times?
Being punched in the back of the head's pretty bad.
If someone does that to you after you've made it clear you don't want to fight while having a lot of people with him on his side, and you have a weapon on you, you will use it in self defense.
And I doubt most of us or the kids know anything about stabbing or being stabbed or what's going to stop someone or what's not. But in all honesty, if you stabbed him enough to stop him without killing him, and he already tried attacking you? I'm willing to bet next time he is totally alright with initiating with a weapon of his own. Not to mention, you will get the **** sued out of you.
Might've been far less sloppy if he didn't have a weapon at all, but who knows where that'd go too. Just using your hands and feet can be as deadly as any weapon, especially when on cement. Easy broken bones, concussions, brain damage, etc, and the victim shouldn't have to go through this pain or risk if he can defend himself.
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I have no idea who you are, but I thank you for arousing me. - Beruga Brawl FC: 3823-8243-5663
He didn't punch him in the face. He punched him in the back of the head (blindside attack to a soft area of the human body that can cause lasting harm if it struck right)
There is nothing being set here btw. This is old ground. Guy attacks you from behind and hits you in the head, you have a right to defend yourself including lethal force. Nothing new or weird about this case in the least.
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You people who think he should have stabbed him once are hilarious. That's just begging for him to try and get revenge on you. You'd probably die if you stabbed someone once.
Good for this kid. Thug headed morons only understand one kind of argument.
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When "Fight or Flight" comes into play, and you choose to fight, you aren't trying to disable or "stop" your foe, you're trying to kill them. We wouldn't be alive today if nature had it any other way. Hell he even tried to run first, but his attacker prevented him. To the people saying he "went too far", let me ask you something? Are you so calm and rational when your life is on the line? Or rather, when you feel like your life is on the line? Thing is, this could have all been avoided had the bully not needlessly antagonized another person. Of course said bully also had no reason to stop bullying someone that until then wouldn't fight back(Unless it was one of those rare schools in which the adults actually DO something about bullying), so who knows how far the bully would have taken things. In the end, justice was served. It wasn't pretty, but it was served. But in the end of it all....
“My reaction is there is no winner at all in this case,”
That quote says it best.
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pjbasis posted... Liquid Wind posted... literally defending a punk that sucker punched someone in the back of the head and had his friends help stop him from fleeing
b8 white knighting it up is hilarious
I don't understand why you were responding to my earlier statements with logical rebuttals based on your ideals, and now you're making some weird b8 generalizing statement.
I've stated my case and you've stated yours, at this point I'm taking more of a shot at the board as a whole for being naive and overprotective of thugs. was 12 times excessive? obviously, but how rational are you expecting someone to be after being hit in the back of the head and prevented from escaping? for that matter the mere fact that he was carrying a knife suggests that this had gone on for a long time and other steps had failed. same thing with the mcdonalds attack, people that haven't experienced it expect violent situations to be clean and for everyone to keep their wits perfectly cool. yes it's unfortunate he had to die, he probably didn't deserve it, but I can't fault the other kid for protecting himself and getting carried away. people panic and **** happens, it's unfortunate but what good does it do for the state to take vengeance on this kid?
I don't necessarily mind stabbing him 12 times - by all means, maim the f***er - but that's when it goes beyond "self-defence" imo. You've successfully disabled the guy after a couple of stabs.
From: XIII_rocks | #077 I don't necessarily mind stabbing him 12 times - by all means, maim the f***er - but that's when it goes beyond "self-defence" imo. You've successfully disabled the guy after a couple of stabs.
Maybe if SOMEONE hadn't hit him in the back of the head he'd be able to think more clearly!
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All I'm saying is while I'm personally not against it, the self-defence argument doesn't wash after a while. Once the guy is disabled, anything after that is unnecessary malice and intent to harm.
I don't mean to justify bullying or violence, but in no way does a school fistfight pardon a murder. Sure maybe the kid was doing it in self defense or wasn't right in the head, but that is still a life taken away, and the kid should be charged with something.
there's a distinction between two people havin' a fist fight and one guy just straight up deciding to assault someone else without provocation. How hard is it to just like... not punch people for no reason? That's all he had to do to not be stabbed 12 times.
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All I'm saying is while I'm personally not against it, the self-defence argument doesn't wash after a while. Once the guy is disabled, anything after that is unnecessary malice and intent to harm.
It's kind of hard to expect the kid to stab, check if he guy is disabled, then stab again, check again, etc. He probably just stabbed a bunch all at once to be sure.
-- For your SuperNiceDog. At least Kupo has class and doesn't MESSAGE the people -Dr Pizza
All I'm saying is while I'm personally not against it, the self-defence argument doesn't wash after a while. Once the guy is disabled, anything after that is unnecessary malice and intent to harm.
I only skimmed the article, though.
A few things.
1. You don't try to "disable" someone when you're scared for your life.
2. You can't tell if someone is disabled just by looking at them. You either have to tie them up, which involves getting dangerously close, or kill them. Anything else is a needless risk on your life. (There are probably other ways, but the safety of the victim comes before the safety of the attacker).
3. You do NOT think clearly when you're angry. Considering how the kid has a knife on him in the first place, he clearly wasn't calm about the situation at all. That faithful day was just the breaking point. No one is thinking calmly once they snap. No one.
This is reality, you don't give your attacker second chances when you can't be certain you'll be given one chance.
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You'll get what's coming to you Ulti, wait and see. - Takfloyd_mkII__
XIII_rocks posted... I don't necessarily mind stabbing him 12 times - by all means, maim the f***er - but that's when it goes beyond "self-defence" imo. You've successfully disabled the guy after a couple of stabs.
Literally a 14 year old kid who tried to avoid conflict, then got sucker punched in the back of the head by a guy who brought his friends along to help.
If a 30 year old didn't stop it wouldn't surprise me that much, but the kid is 14.
Sure, RATIONALLY the guy is probably disabled after a dozen stabs, but when you're in a life or death situation you can't assess things as well and you can't just check his HP.
Keep in mind that this is a kid still. It's not like he was a matured adult. He was being antagonized, probably already pissed off, and then he was hit and couldn't run away. And then the bully and his friends probably kept saying stuff so he lashed out with a weapon to defend himself. Do you think if he stopped after stabbing or slashing him once that the bully would quit? Hell no. He was probably fired up too and his friends could have jumped in also.
It's a shame it ended in fatality, but the other kid should not be facing charges for this.
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1) true, but that's still manslaughter/murder even if provoked. If it got malicious at all, for me the self-defence thing stops being valid. 2) if somebody is stabbed, they're probably disabled. Temporarily, anyway. It'd give you time to get away. Depends where the first couple of stabs were I guess. 3) - I don't think red mist descending in front of somebody clears them of criminal acts. That's never been the case before. Anger as an excuse only takes you so far.
Like I said, I'm not against what he did - just don't think self defence washes. Even if it was stabstabstabstabstabstabstab, that's still a pretty long time of stabbing someone.
It's a school fight. Bullies don't try to kill their victims ever. You're assuming too much about this kid to think he was just some scared poor boy.
He brought the knife, didn't tell his attacker, and then used it at the first sign of violence. It would be just as safe to assume he was waiting for this opportunity.
the article doesn't even say that like after the kid stabbed him once the bully immediately wanted to stop or was begging for his life, so the people getting upset about the '12 times' thing is weird. we don't know how many of those 12 times might have been shallow, defensive cuts to try and keep the bully off of/away from him and the other kid could have kept attacking him or at least still been standing after he'd been stabbed/cut one or multiple times
saying '12 times is too much' is so arbitrary when we have no information on what the 12 times actually entailed
Dude, we don't even know how these stabs are classified. What, did he get the full blade into the torso all 11 times? Did he scratch his sides or arms? We don't know how a person reacts to stabs either.
I mean, really. Stabbing someone isn't a concussive force, it doesn't change the other guy's position relative to your's. In the short term, they can still be active and probably more violent than ever in response to any cut or stab, unless you were full on lethal with the stab in the first place.
Plenty of other stuff to scare the kid too. What if the bully had a weapon of his own? What if the people on the bully's side joined in on the fight, and what if they had weapons too?
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I have no idea who you are, but I thank you for arousing me. - Beruga Brawl FC: 3823-8243-5663
Did Stabbity Joe want to do legitimate damage to the bully, or did he use the knife solely to defend himself? Was there any real intent at all to hurt or kill the bully? I think 12 stabs indicates a kind of frenzied malice or bloodlust, and if that's the case that isn't self-defence.
saying '12 times is too much' is so arbitrary when we have no information on what the 12 times actually entailed
This is a fair point. When I see the word 'stabbed', I tend to think it's significant penetration, but I suppose there really is not way to tell based on the article.
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From: The Mana Sword | #096 saying '12 times is too much' is so arbitrary when we have no information on what the 12 times actually entailed
This is a fair point. When I see the word 'stabbed', I tend to think it's significant penetration, but I suppose there really is not way to tell based on the article.
Yeah I can go with this point, at least. Stab is kind of a varied word.
He brought the knife, didn't tell his attacker, and then used it at the first sign of violence. It would be just as safe to assume he was waiting for this opportunity.
No. The article says he got off the bus several stops before the place where the fight was to happen, and even after being followed and getting punched in the head, he first attempted to get away before resorting to his knife.
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