From: XIII_rocks | #145 He didn't do everything possible because according to that report he did not run away, he only walked.
And that's not something you want to do because then you're asking to be chased, but it's a possible avenue of escape if you're fast enough or they are surprised enough, or the area allows you to make a quick getaway. Speaking of which I don't know what the area was like either, could he not have shouted for help from someone nearby? All possible things that he could have done, but didn't according to that report.
This is kind of an argument over nothing I guess, I just don't like the idea that some people like DYL seem to think there's no grey area at all.
XFD at that tiny kid trying to run from the bully. Just look at their builds the bully would be able to run twice as fast as him easily.
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XIII_rocks posted... He didn't do everything possible because according to that report he did not run away, he only walked.
And that's not something you want to do because then you're asking to be chased, but it's a possible avenue of escape if you're fast enough or they are surprised enough, or the area allows you to make a quick getaway. Speaking of which I don't know what the area was like either, could he not have shouted for help from someone nearby? All possible things that he could have done, but didn't according to that report.
See, this right here bothers me. You acknowledge right there that running wasn't an option, as it would just provoke his attackers into chasing him. Then you put up a bunch of "what ifs". We don't know if the kid was fast enough,. we don't know if the area was ideal for running, we don't know if the attackers would have been surprised long enough, we don't know if anyone was there to help him. It's a very bad idea to gamble in these situations, especially if the odds are against you.
I understand your disdain for the lost of another life. It's perfectly reasonable to not want to kill someone. But you have to realize that sometimes that life doesn't give you a convenient way out. That sometimes you're forced to do something that goes against your morals if you want to continue living.
In a way, this is a different level of hell for the victim. The hell of being tormented by another for so long, feeling that no one else can/will help you. Then the feeling of having lost control for even a moment, and that moment resulting in something you can never undo.
It was said before and I'll say it again, there is no winner in this. It is a sad day for everyone involved.
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You'll get what's coming to you Ulti, wait and see. - Takfloyd_mkII__
I was responding to the guy who said he "did everything possible" with that. He didn't do everything possible by not running.
Doomed attempt or not, running is something he could have done. And like I said I see why he wouldn't do it, I see the problems with it, but it doesn't change the fact that he could have ran and didn't. If by some miracle he gets away, nobody dies (in this incident anyway). And this kid was a douche, but I don't think anyone here is actively happy that he's dead.
It was only a response to SupremeZero, not that big a deal.
See, this right here bothers me. You acknowledge right there that running wasn't an option, as it would just provoke his attackers into chasing him. Then you put up a bunch of "what ifs". We don't know if the kid was fast enough,. we don't know if the area was ideal for running, we don't know if the attackers would have been surprised long enough, we don't know if anyone was there to help him. It's a very bad idea to gamble in these situations, especially if the odds are against you.
Again, it was a response to SupremeZero. Based solely on that report (which isn't exhaustive), he didn't do everything possible to not kill the guy. That's all I'm saying.
I understand your disdain for the lost of another life. It's perfectly reasonable to not want to kill someone. But you have to realize that sometimes that life doesn't give you a convenient way out. That sometimes you're forced to do something that goes against your morals if you want to continue living.
Uhh, condescending much? Anyway, I realize that, though I legitimately don't think the killer would have died that day had he not used the knife. Been seriously injured? Sure, and that's bad enough, but he wouldn't be dead. I mean how many times a week across the world does something like this happen? Sadly, quite a lot, but not every similar incident involves one party ending up in a morgue. On the contrary, said incidents are reeasonably rare.
If by some miracle he gets away, nobody dies (in this incident anyway).
it's a temporary fix, he still has to show up to school the next day. killing him was overboard but these situations don't get resolved by running if the antagonist is determined, which I'd have to imagine he was if it came to this. running can also potentially put you in a much worse position to defend yourself as well
it's not an ideal outcome for anyone but that's how it goes sometimes, what good would it be to put this kid in jail now?
From: XIII_rocks | #154 I was responding to the guy who said he "did everything possible" with that. He didn't do everything possible by not running.
Doomed attempt or not, running is something he could have done. And like I said I see why he wouldn't do it, I see the problems with it, but it doesn't change the fact that he could have ran and didn't. If by some miracle he gets away, nobody dies (in this incident anyway). And this kid was a douche, but I don't think anyone here is actively happy that he's dead.
It was only a response to SupremeZero, not that big a deal.
There's a difference between an option and an act of sheer stupidity, frankly.
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Mershaaay posted... The dead kid looks like a douche. Fair.
this is pretty much exactly what I was going to say
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ya right you are case the sunglasses have 3d so i can see right threw their clothes -ertyu (about wearing sunglasses to stare at boobs without girls noticing)
But don't you see that an option that has a 0% chance of success(or at least very low) isn't an option at all. You may as well ask the kid to attempt to sprout wings and fly. Or in the realm of possibility, ask the kid to offer "favors" to his attackers. It's an option, doesn't mean it's an option worth taking. If the option isn't viable, if can safely be ignored.
Unless you were intentionally taking things too literally?
Anyway, I realize that, though I legitimately don't think the killer would have died that day had he not used the knife. Been seriously injured? Sure, and that's bad enough, but he wouldn't be dead. I mean how many times a week across the world does something like this happen? Sadly, quite a lot, but not every similar incident involves one party ending up in a morgue. On the contrary, said incidents are reasonably rare.
But see, then you're implying that you should allow someone to seriously injure you. You're saying that the kid should just bend over and take his beating, that he doesn't deserve. The bullying shouldn't have happened, the killing shouldn't have happened, but the killing wouldn't have happened if the bullying never happened.
Also it's all fine and dandy that you think the kid wouldn't have died when you're nice and safe in front of a computer, but what do you think was going through the victim's mind? You're telling me that the kid would be able to reasonably predict that a group of larger kids who followed him wasn't going to possibly finish him off? After God knows how much torment he suffered through previously? The damage is far more than just physical.
The fact that these situations happen at all, even well before the killing, is a disgrace. The bigger disgrace, however, comes when people support **** like this from happen in the first place. Either actively by saying "bullying is something we should all grow up with" or passively by ignoring the problem(or doing nothing of actual use) until it's too late.
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You'll get what's coming to you Ulti, wait and see. - Takfloyd_mkII__
From: Dark Young Link | #156 But don't you see that an option that has a 0% chance of success(or at least very low) isn't an option at all. You may as well ask the kid to attempt to sprout wings and fly. Or in the realm of possibility, ask the kid to offer "favors" to his attackers. It's an option, doesn't mean it's an option worth taking. If the option isn't viable, if can safely be ignored.
Unless you were intentionally taking things too literally?
What the hell? Since when is running away some impossible feat?
I think some people are being too quick to act like the bullied kid is the white knight in this situation tbh. He could have handled the situation better - that's all I'm saying. The bully was a douche and got what was coming to him in the end, but it didn't have to go down that way.
There's a difference between an option and an act of sheer stupidity, frankly.
Because killing a guy is so much more sensible? Let's be honest, it's a s*** situation to be in and there's probably no happy ending to it, but on a scale of things to happen, one of the guys ending up dead is pretty extreme.
Because killing a guy is so much more sensible? Let's be honest, it's a s*** situation to be in and there's probably no happy ending to it, but on a scale of things to happen, one of the guys ending up dead is pretty extreme.
if someone punches me in the back of the head I think him ending up dead is a much preferable outcome to his friends swarming me and doing god knows what to me. right and wrong are social constructs of civilization, they kind of go out the window when your safety has been compromised in this manner
Other than carrying the weapon, the kid did nothing wrong. He didn't even hurt anybody in the first place. Which is why tried to avoid them. And when attacked, he was panicking. He didn't think straight. He was struck in an area of the body that could easily lead to blindness/amnesia/coma/death.
Not to mention there was more than one douchebag messing with him.
So maybe, adults will now see that the "man up" excuse is idiotic and will actually do something curb bullying.
On a serious note though, I don't believe in the whole idea of "doing everything possible" in a situation like this. Sure, he could've attempted to run. He also could've comitted suicide to avoid the bullying. Would that be a possible option? Yes... so f*** "everything possible." He did everything REASONABLE to avoid that scenario and when it came down to it, he found himself in survival mode, which can be a very powerful thing.
This wasn't something like when a bullied kid brings guns to school and goes into predatory mode and shoots kids who are at the time defenseless for previous bullying incidents. This is a kid who felt threatened enough to carry a knife for self-defense and was dragged into a situation where he probably felt "It's him or me" and responded as such. Sure, 12 stabs seems excessive but when you're in survival mode, you don't think about things like that because it goes against your natural instincts. If you have the clarity to think "I had better only use JUST enough force to repel my attacker so that I do not cause too much harm," you obviously aren't in a fight for your life... or at least you don't really think you are...
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ya right you are case the sunglasses have 3d so i can see right threw their clothes -ertyu (about wearing sunglasses to stare at boobs without girls noticing)
So maybe, adults will now see that the "man up" excuse is idiotic and will actually do something curb bullying.
adults can't be everywhere, in particular the only two adults that can be absolutely blamed for this incident are the bullies parents. you have to raise your kids better than that.
Shrug, the bully didn't deserve to die for this, but he brought it on himself.
If you get into a fight, you gotta be prepared for the consequences, especially when the other guy is trying to avoid a confrontation. Anything can happen in a fight, you can get put in the hospital or even die.
I used to get bullied a lot when I was a kid. There were situation just like described in this article where I was honestly afraid for my life. There were lots of them and one of me, and I had no weapon or anything. It ended with me getting the **** kicked out of me. If the kid in this article didn't have a knife, he would have just gotten knocked the **** out. You typically can't stand up to a group alone, so he defended himself with his only chance; the knife.
There were situations where I unleashed the wrath of god on a bully or two, and I could have easily put them in the hospital with the damage I inflicted. Thankfully nothing I did ruined somebodies life to make me regret it for the rest of my life, but it easily could have. That's the nature of fighting. It's dangerous.
Kids don't really understand that, and that's why the bully didn't deserve to die. But the same way, the bully and his friends could have seriously injured the other kid, and that's why what the kid did was justified.
The bully didn't deserve to die and I feel sorry for the family, but I also feel sorry for the kid that killed him. He didn't ask to get bullied or chased around. He was just afraid. And now he'll have to live with the fact that he killed somebody.
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I don't see running as an unreasonable option. I mean it's even possible that they wouldn't bother chasing him, and would just laugh.
Idk, I'd need a better idea of the area. I mean if it was somewhere that was in some way congested, crying for help was sure as hell an option. People are getting hung up on the "running" thing, I think. It's one of a few ideas I listed that didn't involve stabbing somebody 12 times. I mean if the killer was thinking "alright f*** these guys, I've had enough", as well as simply trying to defend himself, there's a problem there because he's trying to take things into his own hands and play judge/jury/executioner.
Like I said, if "turn around and stab the guy" was the last reasonable option we would be seeing a lot more incidents like this. This is a relatively isolated incident, and kids being murdered by bullies is also relatively rare (it does happen, granted). So just by playing the numbers game, there are almost always avenues that don't involve somebody dying. And like I said, this kid is trash, but I don't think he deserved to die.
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Crying for help is also dumb/pointless. People aren't going to interfere in group bullying like this. Wasn't this the board that the kid getting beat up for his sneakers was posted on? There were a ton of other people around and no one helped him. No one would have helped this kid.
The kid getting beat up for his sneakers was in the U.S. btw.
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What's with people being so soft? The bully absolutely deserved to die in this situation. Or, well, to be more accurate, "deserved" is really a loaded term anyway and it's not really part of the equation. The bully used lethal force. Kid responded with equal force. Sucks that he had to do it, but he had to do it, and it'll haunt him for the rest of his life probably but at least he still has a rest of his life now. The bully got what he asked for. If you can't act in a civilized manner, you should not receive the benefits of existing in a civilization. Once the kid punched the other kid in the back of the head, all bets were off, and this was the most optimal outcome. One less evil person in the world. Fair, moving on.
My only regret is that the parents of the bully can't be charged with criminal negligence, which this is.
.....................OK what. If a woman is being raped she is told to scream as loud as she can to get attention from people nearby.
And I'm not necessarily comparing this kid to a woman being raped, but when you're being beaten up by guys that are bigger than you/outnumber you, how is shouting for help not a viable option. I literally can't even comprehend that logic.
My only regret is that the parents of the bully can't be charged with criminal negligence, which this is.
it's even worse that the father is now saying that if only his poor innocent baby had a gun everything would be alright because that evil kid that couldn't stand a punch to the back of the head would be dead instead. exactly as I predicted, terrible people raise terrible children more often than not, I agree with you fully on this point.
From: XIII_rocks | #176 Crying for help is also dumb/pointless
.....................OK what. If a woman is being raped she is told to scream as loud as she can to get attention from people nearby.
And I'm not necessarily comparing this kid to a woman being raped, but when you're being beaten up by guys that are bigger than you/outnumber you, how is shouting for help not a viable option. I literally can't even comprehend that logic.
You said it right there. Outnumbered. If one guy's raping a woman, one person can stop him. And anyone is one person. But against a group? Everyone thinks they're alone, so not a single one will step up.
From: XIII_rocks | #178 The bully used lethal force
Uhh
We went over this earlier in the topic. Back of the head is lethal force.
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There's always hope for better things in life. But you can't let anything, friend, lover, God himself, be your hope. You have to be your own hope.
good for him. sounds like great precedent. glad to see the kid not get the rest of his life ruined in jail. he'll prob have to change schools and other stuff, but he shouldn't be punished for trying to get away, being followed, and punched in the back of the head.
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A woman was raped right on the sidewalk of a somewhat busy street in the middle of the day as many people drove past in my town. There was even a topic on B8 about it!
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XIII_rocks | Posted 1/4/2012 4:29:59 PM | message detail | quote OK fine, "potentially" lethal force. Think it would have taken a few more blows to kill the bullied kid though.
Point one: "Potentially" lethal force is lethal force. It's not nonlethal force just because it didn't succeed.
Point two: The kid had every reason to believe he would've taken those few more blows had he not fatally stabbed his assailant, and based on the evidence, I agree with him.
Point one: "Potentially" lethal force is lethal force. It's not nonlethal force just because it didn't succeed.
Point two: The kid had every reason to believe he would've taken those few more blows had he not fatally stabbed his assailant, and based on the evidence, I agree with him.
Eh. I think it's a pretty generalized statement to make when you're comparing fists with blades.
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You said it right there. Outnumbered. If one guy's raping a woman, one person can stop him. And anyone is one person. But against a group? Everyone thinks they're alone, so not a single one will step up.
What? In the rape example, if the woman is being gang-raped, somebody shows up (well, maybe I guess) and calls the police immediately. Actually that potentially works in both examples.
women have still been raped, in public, broad daylight even. screaming for help in a congested area is no guarantee that anyone will help you.
Once again, that's not the point. Crying for help is a viable option because of what could happen if there was even one decent person around, especially if it's a congested area. Of course it's not a guarantee, you're putting your trust in complete strangers, but I'm not providing guaranteed outs. I'm providing options that don't involve people dying.
Like I said, IDK, I think people are being too quick to applaud this kid for standing up to a bully. I don't think he did everything he could to get out of it, I certainly think there was some element of "f*** these guys" (rather than pure self-defence).
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I'm not saying he deserved to die. I'm just saying he was at fault for his own death, at least within the scope of the incident. Obviously one could broaden the scope and blame parents etc. for how he was raised or perhaps other events/influences that affected him in ways that led to him becoming the type of person he was...
We all agree the whole thing sucks and should never have happened, but it was not the bullied kid's responsibility to try and find a better solution, and in my opinion he is not responsible for the death of the kid he was defending himself from. The court got it right.
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ya right you are case the sunglasses have 3d so i can see right threw their clothes -ertyu (about wearing sunglasses to stare at boobs without girls noticing)
Dude, I could severely injure you with an unprovoked sucker punch to the back of the head, and I've never even tried to punch someone in my life. Fists are probably not as efficient at doing harm to someone as a knife, but the distinction is not necessary - a punch to the right part of the body can and will kill somebody or come very close to doing it.
after reading topic. man, only 12? if that artcile on the last page is true i probably woulda kept stabbing until i was sure he was dead. that might be 12 but i sure as hell wouldn't be counting!
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The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.
There is a reason why punching someone in the back of the head - even under controlled conditions, is strictly forbidden like in basically 99% of fighting sports.
It's called a rabbit punch. It very well can cause spinal cord injury, and/or death, if done right. You start doing that, you've got almost zero chance of a valid legal argument.
Of course, Saavadra's not going to know that, but he's covered on that avenue.
Oh right fair enough on the punching thing. I'll let that one go.
Intent DOES matter though. I mean the bully was punching the kid, and the kid was walking away from him. I don't think he was trying to kill the guy. Not that that makes it OK, but I don't think it's the same as stabbing somebody. I mean you have to know that's going to do more damage than a few bruises, while you wouldn't necessarily know that with a back-of-the-head punch. I believe there's a distinction there.
Adrenaline can completely override your higher thought processes. The kid feared for his life, and was right to do so. Running was not an option in this situation, and calling for help would take time, time in which he would be broken or killed, even if the help showed up. He was only left with fight, and well... If he had half assed it he'd be dead or at least horribly maimed. People don't always go "he's defending himself, time to bail", and if he just hurt the kid, his friends would deliver the beating in his place, assuming he didn't do it himself regardless of the injuries.
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it was not the bullied kid's responsibility to try and find a better solution
I don't think it's his responsibility per se, I just think killing a guy should be a last resort. That said, maybe his intent wasn't to kill the guy. But the number 12 is really sticking in my head here. Maybe it wasn't him plunging the knife in a bunch of times in a dramatic, movie-like way, but that's a LOT of stabs. I don't think he has simply used the knife as a weapon to stop himself being punched, I think after a certain point he's used it to actually kill another person. And like I said earlier, that's different.
XIII_rocks posted... Oh right fair enough on the punching thing. I'll let that one go.
Intent DOES matter though. I mean the bully was punching the kid, and the kid was walking away from him. I don't think he was trying to kill the guy. Not that that makes it OK, but I don't think it's the same as stabbing somebody. I mean you have to know that's going to do more damage than a few bruises, while you wouldn't necessarily know that with a back-of-the-head punch. I believe there's a distinction there.
Hmmm, at first I was going to disagree that the bully's intent was not to kill (nothing I've seen so far has convinced me that the bully was not going to kill this kid), but actually I'm going to go beyond that. If you're being attacked, and you can't tell if your assailant is trying to kill you or not, you shouldn't have to guess - you should be able to respond with lethal force immediately. Besides that, you should be able to defend yourself from severe harm in the same way. as defending yourself from death. I don't know for sure if the bully was going to try to kill the kid, but he sure as hell was going to badly injure him. In my opinion, lethal force is a legitimate response to this situation, as well.
If you stab someone more than once, you are probably going to keep going. The number is only significant in that the first strike didn't end the conflict.
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Once again, that's not the point. Crying for help is a viable option because of what could happen if there was even one decent person around, especially if it's a congested area. Of course it's not a guarantee, you're putting your trust in complete strangers, but I'm not providing guaranteed outs. I'm providing options that don't involve people dying.
Well see the thing is, it is not his responsibility to get other people to help him, nor does he have control over whether anyone will respond. The mob is a direct threat to his safety. We might not be able to determine one way or another if they were a threat to his life, but it is a fact that they were a threat to his safety. They intended to cause physical bodily harm. He reacted. Reacting is what people do. He didn't have the option to just take a step back and evaluate the situation in order to make a clear-headed and logical judgment call on whether to fight, run, or look to others in the area to help him.
Like I said, IDK, I think people are being too quick to applaud this kid for standing up to a bully. I don't think he did everything he could to get out of it, I certainly think there was some element of "f*** these guys" (rather than pure self-defence).
Even then, if he was calculating enough to plan on having a knife so that he could fight back "the next time" they f***ed with him, he more than likely already tried the other options that you might have suggested. Within the context of this one incident, it's easy to say he could've done more to avoid the outcome, but we don't have the context of everything leading up to the incident. There would obviously be a ton of character witnesses describing previous interactions between the two of them. If the knife kid had sustained prior injuries from the bully, those would most likely be documented. We don't get to see the evidence or court precedings, If the prosecution did not want to appeal the decision, there was probably either a lack of evidence to suggest the "f*** these guys" element or evidence to the contrary of it.
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ya right you are case the sunglasses have 3d so i can see right threw their clothes -ertyu (about wearing sunglasses to stare at boobs without girls noticing)
(nothing I've seen so far has convinced me that the bully was not going to kill this kid)
...Like I said, stuff like this happens every week. All over the world. And that's f***ing terrible, but contrast how much something like that happens with how many times bullies or even bully victims actually end up dead, or even hospitalized. I don't see why you would be so willing to jump to the conclusion that the bully wanted to murder him.
From: JeffreyRaze | #196 If you stab someone more than once, you are probably going to keep going. The number is only significant in that the first strike didn't end the conflict.
Fair point.
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i'd totally be trying to kill him if i was the kid. dude followed me, punched me in the back of the head, has his friends with him, and are beating the crap out of me.
honestly if you're in that situation and not trying to kill the guy attacking you i'd say something's wrong with you. it's still entirely self defense. self defense doesn't mean you accidently killed someone, it means they were after you and you fought back. if they were doing enough to make you believe they were trying to kill you, it's fair game to kill them.
12 isn't a lot of stabs, it's probably done in under 6 seconds. it's easy to do 12 stabs, nobody's counting. you'd just keep stabbing until you're sure he's stopped.
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XIII_rocks posted... (nothing I've seen so far has convinced me that the bully was not going to kill this kid)
...Like I said, stuff like this happens every week. All over the world. And that's f***ing terrible, but contrast how much something like that happens with how many times bullies or even bully victims actually end up dead, or even hospitalized. I don't see why you would be so willing to jump to the conclusion that the bully wanted to murder him.
And I can't believe you're being so slow to jump to the same conclusion. The dude basically stated his intent to hospitalize this kid, and then acted on said intent. What more does he need to do?