Chrono Cross the Unstoppable, right? On a cruise course for the finals to decimate Ar Tonelico, right? Um, no. Not quite.
Blame the song choices. Blame the voters. Blame yourself, or God. However, Chrono Cross just got TKO'ed, being knocked down *three* times by Guilty Gear X in the penultimate match of the tournament.
1. Magical Dreamers was defeated by Blue Ocean Blue Sky, 16-13 2. The Original bested The Girl Who Stole the Stars, 15-14 3. Life: A Distant Promise was unable to finish against Writhe in Pain, 15-14
Just think, if one person had changed their mind on the second two matches, this would have swung the other way. Instead, Guilty Gear X advances in order to face...
------------------------------------------ Winner's Bracket Runner-up and Loser's Bracket Champion - Guilty Gear X vs Winner's Bracket Champion and presently undefeated - Ar Tonelico 2
THIS ROUND IS A BEST OF THREE.
Also, since Ar Tonelico has yet to be defeated, if it should lose today, the games will rematch tomorrow with the other three tracks.
Short form: Match 1: Awe of She -OR- Mechanical Maze Match 2: Still in the Dark -OR- EXEC_SPHILIA Match 3: Bloodstained Lineage -OR- Rustling Throb
------------------------------------------ Match 1
Awe of She
Mechanical Maze
------------------------------------------ Match 2
Props for the FFT comment, that's like the only positive thing to come out of this!
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You laugh at my Celtic Guardian, until I use my Scapegoat, and then United We Stand, Mage Power, and 3 Axe Of Despairs, with Gaia Power out. 11900/7800
Sorry, celtic. To make matter's even worse, it looks like I'm voting a straight ticket today.
Awe of She Still in the Dark Bloodstained Lineage
I can't believe I'm picking against EXEC_SPHILIA, but maybe I've just listened to it too much. It didn't have the impact this morning that I was expecting it to.
Girl Who Stole the Stars won and the 3rd match tied by my count. If you're not counting Ulti's vote that's kind of silly - saving some typing by saying CC for all 3 is not the same as not listening to all the songs.
Xuxon posted... Girl Who Stole the Stars won and the 3rd match tied by my count. If you're not counting Ulti's vote that's kind of silly - saving some typing by saying CC for all 3 is not the same as not listening to all the songs.
It's pretty obvious Ulti didn't listen to the songs
At the very least, it wasn't a clean sweep, Girl Who Stole the Stars won with or without Ulti. Anyway, since I know nothing is going to change:
Mechanical Maze Still in the Dark Bloodstained Lineage
First match pretty easily, and the other two even more easily. EXEC_SPHILIA isn't even bad, Still in the Dark is just that good. Rustling Throb is awful, though. And Awe of She, while not terrible, is definitely the worst of the 7 GG songs.
Xuxon posted... At the very least, it wasn't a clean sweep, Girl Who Stole the Stars won with or without Ulti.
This was definitely weighing heavily on my mind when I saw how close the matches were. Ulti's vote would have tied two of the matches, but the fact that the first pairing was a greater margin of victory at least let me take solace in it not mattering.
FYI, total percentage of votes for GGX yesterday: 51.7% -- and that's with winning all three pairings. That should say something about how close yesterday was.
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Oh, a big machine with flashy lights. A big machine like that has me written all over it. Well, okay, it doesn't. But give me time... and a crayon --11th Doctor
Oh geez I didn't even know this tournament existed so I'm not going to start voting now but it's nice to see AT doing well. I seem to recall it doing rather not-well Bellis's contest!
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I think someone is being way, way too sensitive. Do we have to stop saying "You got owned" in order to not offend black people due to slavery? - wg64Z
That second match was sick. With two soundtracks that don't particularly interest me, Still In The Dark and EXEC_SPHILIA just blow away all the other songs from GGX and AT2. Very hard to pick here.
I suppose it's not too shocking that I'm voting all AT2 here.
Awe of She has some parts I really like, but their total combined playtime is... not very long. Meanwhile, I like all of Mechanical Maze, so that settles that match.
Still in the Dark is my favorite of the Guilty Gear X songs in the contest, and that I've heard in general, however it's up against EXEC_SPHILIA. Which is my favorite VG song period. AT2 or otherwise. So this isn't even close.
Bloodstained Lineage kind of impressed me in that I guess I expected the Alt song to compare unfavorably to the rest of the list, and that was not the case. ...Of course, right after saying that I'm now going to say that Rustling Throb ~Cloche~ is personally my second favorite song on the AT2 list - and one of my favorites out of the whole OST - and it was only at Alt because I wasn't sure how the board would receive it! Which, again, is more bad luck on GGX's part in terms of my vote.
-- xp1337: Don't you wish there was a spell-checker that told you when you a word out? GotD (219/384) Melee v FFX
Only problem with this finale is that we've already seen this match, so unless something changes in the voter-base or GGX can take the first two matches, this should be anticlimactic.
First match...definitely among the best songs of the day. Mechanical Maze and Awe of She are both really good. It's unfortunate that I can't just pick my favorite three out of the six, because I'd pick both of these and one other.
Second match...I thought Board 8 hated songs with lyrics! I specifically took the fact that Board 8 hates songs with lyrics into account when drawing up lists for my potential nominees for Best OST Contest 2! And now I find out that the Winner's Bracket winner managed to get there with songs that have lyrics. Bah...this contest sucks.
Final match...and here, I believe we have the third that I'd pick...maybe. Or maybe it just seems that way because this is the only one where I clearly favor one song over the other. Actually, having relistened to the songs in part as I type this up, I'm not even sure I'd take the song I'm choosing in this match over the song from the same soundtrack in the previous match...which isn't one I'm taking. Eh, listening to them again, I think it's one of those weird cases where I'd take A over B, B over C, and C over A--which really doesn't make sense in a music contest. Must be SFF, or rSFF, at work.
The song that is definitely the worst of the day: Rustling Throb ~Cloche~. Bloodstained Lineage gets my vote for match 3.
And as good as Mechanical Maze is, Awe of She is just a little better, and gets my vote for match 1.
But if you were able to understand everything I said before, you'd recognize that even though I wouldn't pick it against Bloodstained Lineage and would pick its opponent against Bloodstained Lineage, my pick for match 2 is EXEC_SPHILIA. See? That's why I said this contest sucks when wrapping up the second match. After all of the complaining about how well Ar Tonelico was doing, I find myself actually voting for it in one of the three matches. This is only slightly less humbling than having to vote against one of my own nominations, the one I expected to be the best of all, because it really had drawn a monster with probably the weakest of the songs on its own list up at bat.
I'm just hoping nominations for VGMC6 start soon.
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Okay, time to start the preparations for the next contest. Gotta be almost time for VGMC6, right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KloeGqCPszo
xp1337 posted... My own counts, without Ulti, are:
13-16 in favor of Blue Water Blue Sky 15-14 in favor of The Girl Who Stole the Stars 14-15 in favor of Writhe in Pain
So, yeah, assuming I'm correct, CC was not swept regardless of Ulti's votes.
Been away all day, but fine, I'll recheck. Maybe I put somebody's vote in the wrong column. If Ulti's vote *had* counted, then the waters would be murky indeed, with a 1-1 split of matching votals. Or maybe I was just a retard and match the wrong number to the wrong song. Unfortunately I didn't save that spreadsheet page. Will report back in a few...
Sigh, another votecount fail. *hangs head in shame*
If this contest was going to continue past today (and maybe tomorrow,) I would turn over my counting duties to somebody else, anybody else. xp seems like he's on top of things. At the very least, I'm hoping someone will confirm my vote count tomorrow before make a donkey of myself.
So anyway, yes, Chrono did win the second match. Somehow a vote got reversed.
TsunamiXXVIII posted... Only problem with this finale is that we've already seen this match, so unless something changes in the voter-base or GGX can take the first two matches, this should be anticlimactic.
You do realize the track 6's aren't battling, right? We're using the alternates because these games already used their track 6's against one another? So this isn't as anticlimactic as you're putting it.
From: azuarc | #026 Sigh, another votecount fail. *hangs head in shame*
If this contest was going to continue past today (and maybe tomorrow,) I would turn over my counting duties to somebody else, anybody else. xp seems like he's on top of things. At the very least, I'm hoping someone will confirm my vote count tomorrow before make a donkey of myself.
So anyway, yes, Chrono did win the second match. Somehow a vote got reversed.
TsunamiXXVIII posted... Only problem with this finale is that we've already seen this match, so unless something changes in the voter-base or GGX can take the first two matches, this should be anticlimactic.
You do realize the track 6's aren't battling, right? We're using the alternates because these games already used their track 6's against one another? So this isn't as anticlimactic as you're putting it.
So basically if GGX wins...it's because you're handing it a win. I don't have to explain how this is a terrible decision, yes? The alternates shouldn't have been used like this.
And for reference, I'm probably voting for GGX if I do, but this is absolutely dispiriting. Rules shouldn't be the thing that determines who wins any sort of final match. It's already bad when a swing happens in, say, the sitewide contests in Round 1 or 2, but any contest where the final rounds would go drastically differently if the rules made sense ends up looking disgraceful.
KanzarisKelshen posted... So basically if GGX wins...it's because you're handing it a win. I don't have to explain how this is a terrible decision, yes? The alternates shouldn't have been used like this.
How am I handing GGX a win, exactly? I'm taking away a rematch in favor of one of four other possibilities. It was stated long ago that if any rematches occurred as a result of the loser's bracket, the appropriate song would be replaced with the alternate. I specifically highlighted this would be most likely to happen in one of the final few matches where games are going to have a harder time missing their former opponents. If we repeat the 6 vs 6 match, and AT2 wins because of it, what was even the point of having a loser's bracket?
All I'm doing is taking away an automatic for AT2. It's being replaced by a match-up that Ar Tonelico can still win. If it weren't bad form to post running vote counts, I would do so to further illustrate my point.
As the person who nominated AT2 and probably wants it to win the contest more than most people, I'm not exactly seeing the problem here. Sure, if AT2 goes on to lose in two days in a situation where it goes 1-2 today, with one of the losses being the Alt match, sure I might be a bit frustrated that AT2 would have won had The Second Tower been there and it only wasn't because it already defeated this very opponent, but this wasn't a surprise or anything.
...The rules have been enforced consistently and while I can understand people not necessarily agreeing with them, I don't see how they're anything egregious enough to claim GGX is being handed a win.
Chrono Cross got unlucky. AT2, if it loses, depending on how it loses might be unlucky. ...But I haven't seen anything that calls for claiming GGX was given a win.
-- xp1337: Don't you wish there was a spell-checker that told you when you a word out? GotD (219/384) Melee v FFX
From: KanzarisKelshen | #028 And for reference, I'm probably voting for GGX if I do, but this is absolutely dispiriting. Rules shouldn't be the thing that determines who wins any sort of final match. It's already bad when a swing happens in, say, the sitewide contests in Round 1 or 2, but any contest where the final rounds would go drastically differently if the rules made sense ends up looking disgraceful.
IMO the thing to complain about was last round - CC got none of its round 4-5-6 songs in the finals of the loser's bracket. The whole point of songs 4-5-6 were that they were supposed to be saved for the most important matches - but nope, didn't happen. There's no question CC is the most popular OST here and it got shafted.
See, I don't even agree with that. It's more understandable, IMO, but I still think it's a stretch.
If the argument is that CC is the most popular OST on the board (I'd probably agree this is the case [though just asking CC v Umineko might be a bit interesting], but I would also suggest there's more to it than that,) sure, but the contest's structure never approached this in that fashion. It'd be like saying if the contest had been single-elimination that Chrono Cross got shafted in the Shatter match because some other game had the audacity to beat it before it got to Dreams of the Shore and Scars of Time.
If the argument is that the LB Final should have been 4/5/6 v 4/5/6, I'd understand the want for that, but the LB Final still wasn't the decisive match for the contest. It was, in essence, a semifinal, with AT2 having "won" its semifinal some time ago. In that light, why use the top tier songs in what is effectively a semifinal match? I mean, sure, you could do that, but I don't think it's some kind of "obviously should have been done" matter. The 4/5/6 version is being run here because this really is a finals.
tl;dr: Yeah, I get why people might not be happy Chrono Cross went out without Dreams of the Shore and Scars of Time being on the front lines, but I don't agree that the LB Finals was a stage that demanded their presence. This match would have been that stage.
-- xp1337: Don't you wish there was a spell-checker that told you when you a word out? GotD (219/384) Melee v FFX
From: xp1337 | #030 As the person who nominated AT2 and probably wants it to win the contest more than most people, I'm not exactly seeing the problem here. Sure, if AT2 goes on to lose in two days in a situation where it goes 1-2 today, with one of the losses being the Alt match, sure I might be a bit frustrated that AT2 would have won had The Second Tower been there and it only wasn't because it already defeated this very opponent, but this wasn't a surprise or anything.
...The rules have been enforced consistently and while I can understand people not necessarily agreeing with them, I don't see how they're anything egregious enough to claim GGX is being handed a win.
Chrono Cross got unlucky. AT2, if it loses, depending on how it loses might be unlucky. ...But I haven't seen anything that calls for claiming GGX was given a win.
Let me put it this way. Would you be OK with GGX's Round 6 song facing off against AT2's Round 2 song?
From: xp1337 | #033 tl;dr: Yeah, I get why people might not be happy Chrono Cross went out without Dreams of the Shore and Scars of Time being on the front lines, but I don't agree that the LB Finals was a stage that demanded their presence. This match would have been that stage.
It had them (including Dreamwatch) for 6 rounds before that, but not in the finals? There's no way that makes even the slightest amount of sense to me.
Sorry if I seem upset, I'm really not. I'm not even that huge a fan of CC's OST (if I cared that much I would have voted for Life and CC would be here anwyay - I didn't even prefer Writhe in Pain by very much), I've enjoyed this contest, and I said from the beginning that I wasn't going to take the winner seriously with this whacked out format. I just think it could have been handled a bit better for the end.
Let me put it this way. Would you be OK with GGX's Round 6 song facing off against AT2's Round 2 song?
Not particularly. However, I'm not following your point here. ...That's not what's happening here. It's GGX's Alt v AT2's Alt, it's not a mismatch like that. I wouldn't be okay with AT2's Round 6 song facing off against GGX's Round 2 song either. It's not a matter of what I think wins that particular match-up. All I'm interested in is what I'd call "symmetry." By that I mean that you either have something like Song 1 v Song 1 OR since this is a two day format I could live with Day 1: GGX Song 6 v AT2 Song 1 if Day 2 was: GGX Song 1 v AT2 Song 6.
I've already admitted that, yes, I'd be a bit frustrated if AT2 loses this contest in a way where swapping the Alt v Alt match for the WB Final match (The Second Tower v Holy Orders, which was a blowout in AT2's favor) would have resulted in an AT2 win instead.
However, there's a difference between me being frustrated over it against me thinking some injustice occurred. It wasn't a secret that the alternates would be used if a rematch would occur. It just so happened that since this round is 4/5/6 v 4/5/6 and the 6v6 is a rematch. I can see the case for claiming that the finals should be immune from that, but understand that in that case that that is now the inconsistency. Is it a justifiable one? Maybe. I don't particularly care to get into that argument. I think you can make good points on both sides there.
-- xp1337: Don't you wish there was a spell-checker that told you when you a word out? GotD (219/384) Melee v FFX
It had them (including Dreamwatch) for 6 rounds before that, but not in the finals? There's no way that makes even the slightest amount of sense to me.
It's a product of the format for the last few rounds. It's probably not what I would have done (don't ask me what I would have done, I'm not sure.) However, it seems consistent so far so I don't have a problem with it.
Sorry if I seem upset, I'm really not. I'm not even that huge a fan of CC's OST (if I cared that much I would have voted for Life and CC would be here anwyay - I didn't even prefer Writhe in Pain by very much), I've enjoyed this contest, and I said from the beginning that I wasn't going to take the winner seriously with this whacked out format. I just think it could have been handled a bit better for the end.
Oh, I didn't mean to imply you were upset. I was just remarking on how I could find it understandable that people would find Chrono Cross's exit in that fashion seems a bit anticlimactic, I don't disagree with that notion myself, honestly. I just didn't think it was something that would draw this much controversy.
...I think part of the issue was how we never knew the format for the last few matches until the very end. So it felt like it "came out of nowhere" and caught Chrono Cross in a really bad spot. I honestly think things would have seemed to follow more logically had we known what was going to happen from the beginning.
I mean, I never would have thought of a 1/2/3 v 1/2/3 followed by a 4/5/6 v 4/5/6 (followed by another potential 1/2/3 v 1/2/3) kind of format myself, however, once I saw it it made sense. Again, I don't know if it's what I would have done, but I don't think it's unfair any more than claiming the contest's core idea of having a list of songs could be considered unfair if you got caught in a bad match.
-- xp1337: Don't you wish there was a spell-checker that told you when you a word out? GotD (219/384) Melee v FFX
How exactly is 1/2/3 vs. 1/2/3 followed by 4/5/6 vs. 4/5/6 unfair? Sorry that Chrono Cross's frontline wasn't strong enough. Win that match to earn the right to play your best in the finale.
Also, there's nothing wrong with the Alts replacing 6v6 here. It's essentially a best-of-seven series now between AT2 and GGX, but the advantage is still in AT2's favor because it only has to win three due to being the WB Champion. Take two rounds today and you're the champ. GGX has to win at least four times. In the end, every song on the list could come into play, and what is wrong with that?
Xuxon posted... IMO the thing to complain about was last round - CC got none of its round 4-5-6 songs in the finals of the loser's bracket. The whole point of songs 4-5-6 were that they were supposed to be saved for the most important matches - but nope, didn't happen. There's no question CC is the most popular OST here and it got shafted.
This contest is to determine the best overall soundtrack, not the best two- or three-hit wonder. If that was our goal, we would have just said it's Chrono Cross and not held the tournament. The winner should be a game that is strong throughout its lineup. Maybe GGX is decidedly weaker in the 4-5-6 spots, but it has greater strength in the front half of its line-up. That's reason enough to advance it over CC.
And quite honestly, the aim was to put the big songs in play during day 1 of the finals. If today had been Dreamwatch, Dreams of Shore, and Scars today, would AT2 even be in this? Considering that was my goal, it only made sense to use the first three in the LB final. The game that makes it through the heap to get there just did so on the strength of its 5 and 6 tracks. Why shouldn't it now use its early tracks? Obviously it won with them (or at least 2 out of 3) if it got this far, so we can't dismiss them as weak. And if we could, the game has no right to be here, anyway.
Consider what would have happened if Barkley had beaten PoR. It would then be using johnathan taylor thomas for the next two rounds, which can beat most other track sixes. Maybe not Scars, no, but most. If we had had Barkley in the loser's bracket finals against GGX, would you be upset that it had to use Islam is the Party Religion and Falling down on day 1 and lost because it didn't get to play jtt? Not that Barkley is as terrible as some people make it out to be, but would it have any right to win "best OST" on the back of one awesome song and a bunch of so-so ones?
If you want to dispute that 1-2-3 and 4-5-6 was not the proper distribution, fine. It was a call I made 3 months ago, and I chose to not change it just to accommodate CC. Maybe I should have decided on 1-3-5 and 2-4-6. But I feel very strongly that the entire line-up should be involved at this point. If we had stuck to just a winner's bracket, there'd be little incentive, but for the build-up we've created, I feel it only appropriate for crowning a "best official soundtrack" and not a "best song that has a few ok support tracks."
If you want to dispute that I sprang this format on you, yes, you're quite right that I did. I wanted to leave some tension and guesswork ahead. If it could be counted on for CC to steamroll the loser's bracket, steamroll the LB finals, and then steamroll AT2, why would we even still be here other than to make it official? There were quite a few people bellyaching from the start of the LB that it didn't matter because CC was just going to win anyway. It would appear they have been proven wrong, and pleasantly so in the sense that it wasn't as predictable as they thought. Truthfully, I thought CC would still win that match. It didn't. Oh well, too bad.
I tend to be very reluctant about my positions on matters that are called into question, but I stand behind my decision here. We ran an entire loser's bracket for what felt like the explicit purpose of giving Chrono Cross a second chance after faltering against Shatter, and it blew it.
JTT got trashed in the ToC. It wouldn't have had a prayer against The Second Tower, and if you swapped in Still in the Dark or Awe of She (which probably should be in the sixth spot for GG), they'd curbstomp it too, previous results indicate that. You picked a very weak example to make that argument.
And the problem is mostly that none of the OSTs that most people would argue as their favorite OSTs have strong 1-2-3 selections - that was the whole point of the way we did our setlists. We saved the best for last because not only would it have to face stronger competition, but because the songs that came into the final rounds were supposed to be the best the OST had to offer. That's how I went about it, at least. If you stick Umineko up against GGs lineup, it likely loses, too, because most of GGs songs are similarly well-received. It pretty much was just a terrible, terrible setup compared to a Magnificent Seven + Champion setup, or even the 1-3-5 | 2-4-6 style you mentioned. Hell, let me suggest something, Azuarc: run all seven nominations of AT2 and CC against each other while Umineko takes on GG, then pit the winner of those matches against each other. I'm willing to bet cash money that the results are wildly different, simply because the first three songs of Umineko and CC just aren't indicative of their strength, as they appealed more to the nominator than to universal tastes.
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You laugh at my Celtic Guardian, until I use my Scapegoat, and then United We Stand, Mage Power, and 3 Axe Of Despairs, with Gaia Power out. 11900/7800
KanzarisKelshen posted... And the problem is mostly that none of the OSTs that most people would argue as their favorite OSTs have strong 1-2-3 selections.... If you stick Umineko up against GGs lineup, it likely loses, too, because most of GGs songs are similarly well-received.
Thank you for proving my point. This isn't about which game has the strongest three songs. It's about which has a stronger extended line-up. Guilty Gear isn't exactly frontloading -- it's better songs are at the end as well. It just happens to (apparently) be more consistently well-received. I'm not singling out Guilty Gear as the game I want to win, but I have to admit that I was hoping the champion would meet that description. If (insert_game_here) can't win a majority of the face-offs up and down its line-up, then it isn't the best OST.
Hmm... my ideas for the finals setup were a little bit off from this. I would've supported this match running 2 days, but with the current results it doesn't look like it will happen. Therefore I came up with an alternative system to nearly force that to happen. What if the setup for all this was changed to be some sort of 4 out of 7 format, with the same matches planned for today and tomorrow, only with AT2's initial win from the Winner's bracket counted already.
It would almost guarantee a second day unless AT2 wins all three matches today (or if it wins 2 matches and draws the other, therefore getting to the maximum potential number of wins: 3), and it would also eliminate any (albeit very unlikely) possibility of a third day. Hypothetically, should a draw happen in the second day and the results of be 3 wins each, AT2's WB win would be discounted, leaving GGX with a win/loss ratio of 3:2, and the overall win. Any other circumstance would be dead easy to judge. What do you guys think?
The Grand Finale is a best-of-7 series with a twist. The Second Tower essentially gave AT2 two wins in this series. It only needs to win two more. Guilty Gear X has to win four. If it does more power to it. All 7 songs would have been used, so it's a true indication of the better soundtrack.
I will say that 1-3-5 followed by 2-4-6 would be better to use in the next OST contest as there's a nice balance of Weak/Intermediate/Strong facing each other, but the matchups are still even right now. You can't use frontloading as an argument because putting weak songs at the end would kill any chances of an OST making it here in the first place. and Kanz you're using Umineko as an argument of 1-2-3 not being indicative of it's strength even though it led with worldenddominator. And Chrono Cross led with Magical Dreamers.
azuarc said it perfectly: If (insert_game_here) can't win a majority of the face-offs up and down its line-up, then it isn't the best OST.
From: sonten1 | #048 Bad idea because of what I already stated.
The Grand Finale is a best-of-7 series with a twist. The Second Tower essentially gave AT2 two wins in this series. It only needs to win two more. Guilty Gear X has to win four. If it does more power to it. All 7 songs would have been used, so it's a true indication of the better soundtrack.
... So what part of my idea was bad exactly? Also, what do you mean about that two wins part. Apparently I seem to be missing something here :(