Current Events > Has any RPG managed to solve the final boss difficulty problem?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Any game I can think of has this dilemma:

• You play the entire main campaign and skip most of the side content. The final boss is challenging
• You play all the side content and maybe even start some of the end game. The final boss is a joke

Basically these games always make you choose between "the finale will be awesome but you'll miss half the game" and "the finale will be a joke but at least you played the game properly"

SMT Nocturnes true final boss requires you to do pretty much all of the games content and still needs grinding and a good strategy to not get demolished by him.

So yeah, its been solved. I know Nocturne isnt the only one

That is level scaling.

So any game with level scaling, and possibly adding new boss mechanics at higher tiers, is what you're looking for.

Usually the solution is optional superbosses that can be found in the world for players that have done too much grinding.

optional bosses, ideally "post game". Sometimes it's even DLC, like in Dragon Dogma's Dark Arisen.

Or it's something like the FF7 weapons, FFX monster arena, FF12 hunts, Persona 4 Margaret, Octopath traveler's Daughter of a dark god, etc.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

SMT Nocturnes true final boss requires you to do pretty much all of the games content and still needs grinding and a good strategy to not get demolished by him.

So yeah, its been solved. I know Nocturne isnt the only one

That sounds brutal tbh.

ellis123 posted...

That is level scaling.

So any game with level scaling, and possibly adding new boss mechanics at higher tiers, is what you're looking for.

Level scaling has its own issues though, doesn't it?

Psychologically, it feels pretty cheap that an enemy scales to your level. It makes the entire process of levelling up feel kind of pointless.

I remember that in Oblivion. Guides would straight up tell you how to be careful not to level up in a specific way or you'd break the game.

Well you do just a bit if side content then

pinky0926 posted...

That sounds brutal tbh.

SMT in general has brutal final bosses, but usually that's because most games begin with "devils are attacking some place" and the "true" ending boils down to you personally killing lucifer (or something very close to it), and then you personally killing god (or something very close to it), and then telling both angels AND demons to piss off.

What game has the canon "final boss" actually the most challenging thing in the game. Even moreso than sidequests.

pinky0926 posted...

Level scaling has its own issues though, doesn't it?

Psychologically, it feels pretty cheap that an enemy scales to your level. It makes the entire process of levelling up feel kind of pointless.

I remember that in Oblivion. Guides would straight up tell you how to be careful not to level up in a specific way or you'd break the game.

Correct-ish. Level scaling is on the other side of the of the coin in that it makes it so encounters are never pointless, but as you say it can make you not feel overpowered when you get to the parts where non-level scaled games would normally make you OP. However, as with all things it comes down to implementation rather than actually being an inherent thing. There is sort of a reason that the same couple of examples always come up as they were either really bad implementations of it (TES) or were too hard for the people complaining to use (FFVIII). In some ways it still goes against the core philosophy of what an RPG should do, but as the entire concept of an RPG has long since been dropped in favor of "big numbers + big loot" that is no longer really something that can really be held over it.

luigi33 posted...

What game has the canon "final boss" actually the most challenging thing in the game. Even moreso than sidequests.

SMT Nocturne again. That game didnt pull any punches with its true final boss

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

SMT Nocturnes true final boss requires you to do pretty much all of the games content and still needs grinding and a good strategy to not get demolished by him.

So yeah, its been solved. I know Nocturne isnt the only one

i first-tried the boss, not putting pierce on any of my demons because i was too lazy

grinding is not necessary. if anything, grinding trivializes the boss due to how important of a stat level is. the boss is cool and a neat finale but it's not remotely close to a superboss in difficulty, but it is definitely the hardest fight in the game like it should be

Quite a few RPGs solve that by making a "true final boss."

Like in The Last Remnant, the final boss gets stronger the more quests you complete before reaching him. And if you do 100% of the side quests, you fight the true version of him. But that game is pretty challenging in general.

s0nicfan posted...

Usually the solution is optional superbosses that can be found in the world for players that have done too much grinding.

Yeah I guess so. I just got done with a replay of FFX and it's amazing how much of a jump there is between the final boss and the endgame bosses.

I found myself in the hilarious position where I was woefully underequipped to face the endgame superbosses and would need another 10+ hours of grinding, but I could beat the story final boss in literally 2 hits.

Illuminoius posted...

i first-tried the boss, not putting pierce on any of my demons because i was too lazy

grinding is not necessary. if anything, grinding trivializes the boss due to how important of a stat level is. the boss is cool and a neat finale but it's not remotely close to a superboss in difficulty, but it is definitely the hardest fight in the game like it should be

Yeah, hes not even close to the hardest boss in megaten. Hes just definitely the hardest fight in Nocturne, which is what the tc was looking for.

pinky0926 posted...

Yeah I guess so. I just got done with a replay of FFX and it's amazing how much of a jump there is between the final boss and the endgame bosses.

I found myself in the hilarious position where I was woefully underequipped to face the endgame superbosses and would need another 10+ hours of grinding, but I could beat the story final boss in literally 2 hits.

Its also because most games want the player to be able to at least finish the main story, so they usually cant get too crazy.

The kid gloves come off for post game content though, which is why theres usually such a big leap between the final boss and super bosses.

ellis123 posted...

Correct-ish. Level scaling is on the other side of the of the coin in that it makes it so encounters are never pointless, but as you say it can make you not feel overpowered when you get to the parts where non-level scaled games would normally make you OP. However, as with all things it comes down to implementation rather than actually being an inherent thing. There is sort of a reason that the same couple of examples always come up as they were either really bad implementations of it (TES) or were too hard for the people complaining to use (FFVIII). In some ways it still goes against the core philosophy of what an RPG should do, but as the entire concept of an RPG has long since been dropped in favor of "big numbers + big loot" that is no longer really something that can really be held over it.

Any games where only bosses have level scaling and regular enemies dont, so you can still feel overpowered but cant become too strong for the big fights?

ellis123 posted...

Correct-ish. Level scaling is on the other side of the of the coin in that it makes it so encounters are never pointless, but as you say it can make you not feel overpowered when you get to the parts where non-level scaled games would normally make you OP. However, as with all things it comes down to implementation rather than actually being an inherent thing. There is sort of a reason that the same couple of examples always come up as they were either really bad implementations of it (TES) or were too hard for the people complaining to use (FFVIII). In some ways it still goes against the core philosophy of what an RPG should do, but as the entire concept of an RPG has long since been dropped in favor of "big numbers + big loot" that is no longer really something that can really be held over it.

FFVIII has one of the best level scaling systems I've ever seen tbh. All enemies have a minimum and maximum level. So enemies scale to a point but eventually they'll stop getting stronger. Consequently if you're intentionally keeping your level down, the enemies minimum levels start kicking in and you'll find yourself needing to grind.

Unfortunately the junction system invalidates this system completely as you can walk out of balamb garden for the first time with everyone having 6000hp

Elden Ring didn't have this problem unless you absurdly over leveled. I assume other From games are the same.

I always thought it was funny that the FF7 devs also thought about this, if you got the Knights of the Round, then the final boss would have increased stats, but it didnt matter because Knights were so busted.

Seaman_Prime posted...

I always thought it was funny that the FF7 devs also thought about this, if you got the Knights of the Round, then the final boss would have increased stats, but it didnt matter because Knights were so busted.

Are there any other FF final bosses that have adaptive stats like that, or is it just Sephiroth?

uwnim posted...

Any games where only bosses have level scaling and regular enemies dont, so you can still feel overpowered but cant become too strong for the big fights?

No clue. I'm sure it exists somewhere, but none come to mind.

Tyranthraxus posted...

FFVIII has one of the best level scaling systems I've ever seen tbh. All enemies have a minimum and maximum level. So enemies scale to a point but eventually they'll stop getting stronger. Consequently if you're intentionally keeping your level down, the enemies minimum levels start kicking in and you'll find yourself needing to grind.

Unfortunately the junction system invalidates this system completely as you can walk out of balamb garden for the first time with everyone having 6000hp

Yerp, FFVIII absolutely has one of the best level scalings in the game. It's just that the Junction system can trivialize it on repeat plays when you recognize how to abuse it. I really wouldn't hold it against the game, though, as most of the FF's are extremely abusable if you want them to be and it's really just people's disdain for VIII that gives it a worse rap than, say, VI for letting you break the entire game right from the get-go.

I mean 15's final boss was more of a event then anything that took effort, and 16 was more of a action game.

Duke in Tales of Vesperia got a massive power up if you did some of the side quests.

FF8

a number of JRPGs solve this through a variety of means

Sekiro.

pinky0926 posted...

Any game I can think of has this dilemma:

* You play the entire main campaign and skip most of the side content. The final boss is challenging
* You play all the side content and maybe even start some of the end game. The final boss is a joke
Basically these games always make you choose between "the finale will be awesome but you'll miss half the game" and "the finale will be a joke but at least you played the game properly"

Star Ocean 2 will make the final boss harder if you do some specific side content.

BG3 did it pretty well just by having fewer levels.

Max out at 12 a little way into Act 3, then everything else is gear and tactics.

Or barrels of gunpowder.

pinky0926 posted...

Yeah I guess so. I just got done with a replay of FFX and it's amazing how much of a jump there is between the final boss and the endgame bosses.

I found myself in the hilarious position where I was woefully underequipped to face the endgame superbosses and would need another 10+ hours of grinding, but I could beat the story final boss in literally 2 hits.

Except by using Zanmato (the game's one hit kill against literally anything move) on his second form, it's impossible to kill him in less than 3 hits even at max stats due to his HP and the damage cap. ;)

Also pretty sure FF8 has final boss capped at level 65, and level doesn't matter anyway.

Trumble posted...

Except by using Zanmato (the game's one hit kill against literally anything move) on his second form, it's impossible to kill him in less than 3 hits even at max stats due to his HP and the damage cap. ;)

It was 3 hits, you're right.

It's been a very long time since I've played the games, but I think both Baten Kaitos games had challenging final bosses. At the very least, I'm pretty sure Origins' true final boss was.

Chrono Trigger

pinky0926 posted...

You play all the side content and maybe even start some of the end game. The final boss is a joke

pinky0926 posted...

Psychologically, it feels pretty cheap that an enemy scales to your level. It makes the entire process of levelling up feel kind of pointless.

You don't want a joke final boss, got that. But you don't want your levelup from beating side contents go to waste either? These two kinda contradict each other TC:d

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

SMT Nocturnes true final boss requires you to do pretty much all of the games content and still needs grinding and a good strategy to not get demolished by him.

So yeah, its been solved. I know Nocturne isnt the only one

This. Fuck level scaling.

I personally dont see this as a dilemma at all though. Its not like RPG bosses are historically at all challenging outside certain series like SMT, so I enjoy demolishing them.

I see someone already brought up tales of vesperia's final boss poweing up, but I feel most tales of games tend to do a good enough job of having a decent fight on the difficulty you are playing off. (Assuming you didn't absolutely grind kills with devil weapons, which to be honest most tales of players don't. At most the main character's devil weapon will be the strongest since these operate on how many enemies the character killed, and most people who play tales tend to stick to only controlling the MC).

Tales of graces f had a ok final boss, but it gives you the post-game bonus dungeon that will push your shit in for a bit. Like you will get worked by a goddamn butler npc, lmao.

Final Fantasy 7 made an effort by buffing Sephiroth HP if you were max level when you reached him and with Emerald Weapon punishing full materia setups.

But uh, successfully? Not really. Maybe The World Ends With You since you can scale down your level to increase drop rates, but that's still artificial.

Another series with a weird option around difficulty is Disgaea, where you can literally increase the difficulty level at any point which increases the enemy levels and abilities. It's mostly used to let the same grinding spots be effective up to level 9999, but it technically does mean if you want a challenge at any point you can just crank up the levels.

Apparently FF7 Rebirth Final Boss is giving people trouble, even those who did side content but I don't know if it's challenging or cheap

I feel like I've played games where clearing the toughest optional content powered up the final boss. You usually don't get to experience that until a second fight, though, since you typically have to actually beat the final boss once to unlock all the optional content.

For something more in the spirit of your question, my first thought was actually Undertale, although I think it's kind of a stretch to call that an RPG. Getting the "true" ending requires doing a bunch of optional side content and, importantly, not grinding, while going all in on grinding unlocks an entire alternate route with brutally hard bosses. So no matter which way you go, the final boss is still gonna be an appropriately difficult confrontation.

Vesperia sorta fits the bill. But honestly it's just 3 side quests

Whether you do the other sidequests or not, you will hover around Lv65-70, as a majority of quests dont involve enough fighting to skyrocket your levels, but;

The Giganto Monster quest provides levels, since each one is pretty much a boss
The Devil Arms Quest reveals the true final boss
The Early Post game dungeon visit provides plenty of levels, as well allows you to find the last two devil's arms

If you do the above, you will probably sit at Lv80+ vs the Lv85 True final boss.