Board 8 > Madame Web reviews: "It is the Cats: The Movie of superhero movies"

(+) Yeah! (+)

kevwaffles posted...

Why wouldn't we be talking general public recognition when it comes to picking a superhero for a movie?

Edit: And even then, the Marvel characters who probably had the biggest disparity between "nerd" and "general" recognition in the past would be more like Punisher, Cable, and Deadpool.

Because you have people in this topic who argue that the general public doesn't know anybody before they're in a movie and I don't really want to keep dealing with that

Leonhart4 posted...

Because you have people in this topic who argue that the general public doesn't know anybody before they're in a movie and I don't really want to keep dealing with that

I guess in my view "general recognition" is more like the percentage of people who would say "Oh I've heard of them" or "Oh I've seen that guy before".

Also F4 was and arguably still is in a weird place where everyone instantly recognizes them but very few can name any of them, real or hero name, except maybe The Invisible Woman by accident. Like you'd think Mr. Fantastic would be a freebie but it's not.

i'm talking "really casual nerd" general public territory and using myself (someone who's never read an issue of a marvel comic front to back) as a proxy, circa around 2000 - just before the x-men and spider-man movies, but long after batman and superman movies had become an institution. iron man was about the very periphery of my awareness at that point, while proximity to spider-man/batman/superman generally meant more recognition to me.

Spider-Man
Wolverine
Captain America
Cyclops
Iron Man

Iron Man is fifth

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Spider-Man
Wolverine
Captain America
Cyclops
Iron Man

Iron Man is fifth

Hulk

I'd say people would get The Thing first out of the Fantastic Four because he's kinda similar to The Hulk.

Also some of you don't really appreciate how much more recognizable DC characters in general were over Marvel before the MCU.

Leonhart4 posted...

I'd say people would get The Thing first out of the Fantastic Four because he's kinda similar to The Hulk.

Visually he's the most recognizable of the F4 by far, but then many would blank on an actual name.

kevwaffles posted...

Hulk

Hulk is 12.

Leonhart4 posted...

I'd say people would get The Thing first out of the Fantastic Four because he's kinda similar to The Hulk.

Thing is 10!

Next F4 would be Mr. Fantastic... at 17.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Hulk is 12.

Pre-MCU Hulk is 2 or 3 and it's not even close. Even before the 2000s movie people referenced the Lou Ferrigno Hulk for decades.

kevwaffles posted...

Pre-MCU Hulk is 2 or 3 and it's not even close. Even before the 2000s movie people referenced the Lou Ferrigno Hulk for decades.

There is absolutely no world in which Hulk was 2. You're high as bananas.

Hulk wasn't 2 (Wolverine definitely has him beat. Maybe Cap, too), but he was top 5.

This is also where I'll point out I was using the incredibly scientific method of ordering by total comic appearances.

But yeah, Hulk never beats Wolverine like jeez

Also Captain America was probably a little more well known than people think simply because he was AMERICA the superhero

like my dad was not a comic book nerd but he owned a Captain America t-shirt

kevwaffles posted...

Also some of you don't really appreciate how much more recognizable DC characters in general were over Marvel before the MCU.

This is true and important (Spiderman exempted)

I think there's a genuine argument for having an S tier of recognition for Superman, Batman and Spidey because those three completely dominate any other comic characters in recognizability. Set those aside and I think 'who's an A-lister comics character?' makes a lot more sense. At that point your A-list is like, Flash, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Hulk, etc. and Iron Man is a tier below those.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

This is also where I'll point out I was using the incredibly scientific method of ordering by total comic appearances.

But yeah, Hulk never beats Wolverine like jeez

I figured you were doing something like that after you whipped out 17th.

But also definitely not never. Wolverine debuted in a Hulk comic, so it's safe to say it was a little while before he could have overtaken him.

Edit: Having said that, the fact he is 2nd in comic appearances when he is considerably newer than all the other characters you mentioned does go to show how insane his popularity with comic readers truly is.

Reminder that this is the point people are arguing against when they say Iron Man isn't that obscure:
Waluigi1 posted...

Again just to reiterate, I'm talking about general audiences, regular people. Most people would probably have named 100 other super heroes before they got to him.

I think the Hulk is about as well-known as Spiderman. Maybe not the details of what he is or anything, but I think if you showed a picture of him to a rando on the street, they'd easily recognize him.

Most people couldn't have named more than 5 superheroes before the MCU. Outside of Supes/Batman/Spiderman, nothing is (relatively) guaranteed.

I would argue Storm on the same level as Beast in the 80s and 90s. She was one of the first black superheroes, possibly the first but definitely most prominent superheroine of color, she was as present in the X-Men as Wolverine throughout the Claremont run (the only two who didn't retire or go to another book since Giant Size), as much a part of the cartoon as Beast, had the mohawk outfit, and was Amalgamated with Wonder Woman. She was comparable to DC's #3 in their triumvirate as Marvel's best/most popular superheroine. Add in Marvel vs Capcom presence and Halle Berry and actually, y'know what, she's higher than Beast. Same tier, but higher up.

Always been curious what tier lists would look like by the decade, maybe even year if possible.

I'd guess Iron Man was A or B list in the 60s and 70s and 80s through Demon in a Bottle, Secret Wars, and Armor Wars before falling to B or C with most other Avenger types in the 90s. I agree that New Avengers & the Ultimate line brought him back to a solid B.

The 90s A-listers were a different breed. Wolverine, Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Spawn, Punisher, Venom, Hulk, Gambit, Rogue, Cyclops, Storm, Robin, maybe Wonder Woman, Captain America, Catwoman, and Thing.

Civil War (the comic storyline, not the movie) pushed Iron Man's notoriety a lot. Although perhaps not for the best reasons...

KamikazePotato posted...

Civil War (the comic storyline, not the movie) pushed Iron Man's notoriety a lot. Although perhaps not for the best reasons...

TRUTH. Yeah, he and Cap were DEFINITELY back up to A-List with comics readers by then, but outside of comics he had minimal presence.

The Avengers were the B-Tier when the MCU started because Marvel didn't have the X-Men, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, or even Hulk rights (and still kind of sort of don't at least as a headliner). Iron Man, Cap, Thor? They were firmly B-Tier by virtue of other studios not purchasing their rights in the nineties.

Germane to really nothing, but here's an interesting popularity list from 2007 on one of the comic websites with the most traffic at the time: https://www.cbr.com/top-100-dc-and-marvel-characters-master-list/

While it comes from comic fans alone, it's fascinating to see where Iron Man stacks in terms of popularity for Marvel comic readers as a subset - still at #11 at the time, in the year before Iron Man comes out.

I think the list definitely seems very par-for-the-course by Civil War era standards. Spider-Man and Captain America make sense as the top two, Daredevil as a character for comics readers has always been a real critical darling, and Doctor Doom is easily the most popular perennial villain in the company. The Thing and the Hulk were longtime brand ambassadors, sure. In comics, the X-Men were starting down a real tailspin by this point. After Grant Morrison, a succession of weak runs probably put the highest-rated mutant at #7. Not to mention vote-splitting meaning that X-Men fans would have to divvy up their votes over a large ensemble which hurts each of their chances.

Hawkeye had just died, so this was a huge anti-Bendis vote, I would imagine.

Anyways, it's really kind of cool to see what the popularity of these characters was within the community. Not a particularly penetrating insight for the wider popularity of the characters, but it's pretty cool to look back and see just where the readership base was in 2007, right before the MCU is about to explode on the scene.

scarletspeed7 posted...

Germane to really nothing, but here's an interesting popularity list from 2007 on one of the comic websites with the most traffic at the time: https://www.cbr.com/top-100-dc-and-marvel-characters-master-list/

While it comes from comic fans alone, it's interesting to see where Iron Man stacks in terms of popularity for Marvel comic readers as a subset - still at #11 at the time, in the year before Iron Man comes out.

I think the list definitely seems very par-for-the-course at the time. Spider-Man and Captain America make sense as the top two, Daredevil as a character for comics readers has always been a real critical darling, and Doctor Doom is easily the most popular perennial villain in the company. The Thing and the Hulk were longtime brand ambassadors, sure. In comics, the X-Men were starting down a real tailspin by this point. After Grant Morrison, a succession of weak runs probably put the highest-rated mutant at #7. Not to mention vote-splitting meaning that X-Men fans would have to divvy up their votes over a large ensemble which hurts each of their chances.

Hawkeye had just died, so this was a huge anti-Bendis vote, I would imagine.

Anyways, it's really kind of cool to see what the popularity of these characters was within the community. Not a particularly penetrating insight for the wider popularity of the characters, but it's pretty cool to look back and see just where the readership base was in 2007, right before the MCU is about to explode on the scene.

Wow. Yeah, definitely capturing the zeitgeist! When is that, right after 52 and Civil War? Green Lantern is going strong, too, with Hal, Kyle, and Guy all making top 25. Astonishing must've come out, too, with Cyclops, Wolverine, Beast, Kitty, Colossus, and Emma all there (with Nightcrawler, Magneto, Madrox, and Jean). Surprised to see Iron Fist so high with Cage down at 33. No John Stewart?

This would have been during full Johns and and Tomasi fever when they were the hottest thing since sliced bread, GL was dominating. A couple years later and even Larfleeze could have been in the top 25.

It's difficulty to convey for those who weren't all in at the time what a fucking movement that Johns GL run was. Blackest Night felt like the fucking Olympics for comic events.

KamikazePotato posted...

Most people couldn't have named more than 5 superheroes before the MCU. Outside of Supes/Batman/Spiderman, nothing is (relatively) guaranteed.

here's a fun question: what about superheroes who don't originate from Marvel or DC. I'm thinking, ignoring whether or not various Power Rangers or Kamen Riders or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or whatever count or not, the Incredibles all probably rank pretty highly

KamikazePotato posted...

Civil War (the comic storyline, not the movie) pushed Iron Man's notoriety a lot. Although perhaps not for the best reasons...

Civil War's popularity continues to astound me....I mean, ugh, I guess.....I get why it was popular. It was shocking.

It was also fucking terrible.

God I hate Mark Millar.

Just like One More Day, it's a good idea if you just change almost everything about it.

Mega_Mana posted...

Wow. Yeah, definitely capturing the zeitgeist! When is that, right after 52 and Civil War? Green Lantern is going strong, too, with Hal, Kyle, and Guy all making top 25. Astonishing must've come out, too, with Cyclops, Wolverine, Beast, Kitty, Colossus, and Emma all there (with Nightcrawler, Magneto, Madrox, and Jean). Surprised to see Iron Fist so high with Cage down at 33. No John Stewart?

Astonishing is a few years old at this point and Iron Fist just had the Immortal Iron Fist run come out - that thing was a real darling with critics and fans.

John Stewart's popularity has never translated to comics from fans of the DCAU; I couldn't begin to explain why, but he's just not a comic mover and always has been slotted as #5 even behind Alan when it comes to having an actual comic fanbase!

This is coming out during the tail-end of 52, for the DC fans out there, and in the aftermath of Civil War.

John Stewart has a comic coming out from one of the current best in the biz, PKJ. Don't know how it's selling though. Green Lantern as a brand has been a mess for years, they had no idea what to do after their Golden Goose moved on (though he was also starting to run out of ideas it seems).

UshiromiyaEva posted...

This would have been during full Johns and and Tomasi fever when they were the hottest thing since sliced bread, GL was dominating. A couple years later and even Larfleeze could have been in the top 25.

It's difficulty to convey for those who weren't all in at the time what a fucking movement that Johns GL run was. Blackest Night felt like the fucking Olympics for comic events.

Man, this was such a wonderful time. I loved it. I loved jumping into Green Lantern as Johns just made the whole thing so expansive and awesome.

There seems to be none of that hype left. It feels so hollow nowadays, even with the great books out. There's just nothing that feels special like that.

The GL books are all fine right now. Jeremy Adams is doing a good job.

But it's not as good as his Flash, and they never should have taken him off of Flash. Franky, this current Spurrier run Flash is pretty terrible. They really dropped the ball.

They also fucked up taking PKJ of of Action Comics. I know this 3 issue run with Jason Aaron is only temporary, but it's painful. Another popular writer I just do not like.

The Morrison GL run was also really good; it was so wildly different from Johns' era but such a breath of fresh air and with such wonderful art.

Oh Morrison GL was fantasic. Didn't feel like it was the ongoing GL run though, due to the sporadic schedule. Felt more like an Elsworlds book, which is honestly a good thing.

https://twitter.com/Kojima_Hideo/status/1763817666283020330?s=20

oof

what is happening there, I don't speak symbols and google said it failed to translate

translate the symbols for me

It's just Kojima saying he watched it.

It's become a meme that Kojima simply tweeting that he watched a movie without any further commentary is the most damning review a film can get.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/7/770b0430.jpg

Twitter has a translate post button, just not on embeds. But Kojima's English account posted as well now.

https://twitter.com/HIDEO_KOJIMA_EN/status/1763913498382487913

Did you guys hear about Chris Stuckmann's "not review" of Madame Web?

LinkMarioSamus posted...

Did you guys hear about Chris Stuckmann's "not review" of Madame Web?

Tell us!

Mega_Mana posted...

I would argue Storm on the same level as Beast in the 80s and 90s. She was one of the first black superheroes, possibly the first but definitely most prominent superheroine of color, she was as present in the X-Men as Wolverine throughout the Claremont run (the only two who didn't retire or go to another book since Giant Size), as much a part of the cartoon as Beast, had the mohawk outfit, and was Amalgamated with Wonder Woman. She was comparable to DC's #3 in their triumvirate as Marvel's best/most popular superheroine. Add in Marvel vs Capcom presence and Halle Berry and actually, y'know what, she's higher than Beast. Same tier, but higher up.

Always been curious what tier lists would look like by the decade, maybe even year if possible.

I'd guess Iron Man was A or B list in the 60s and 70s and 80s through Demon in a Bottle, Secret Wars, and Armor Wars before falling to B or C with most other Avenger types in the 90s. I agree that New Avengers & the Ultimate line brought him back to a solid B.

The 90s A-listers were a different breed. Wolverine, Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Spawn, Punisher, Venom, Hulk, Gambit, Rogue, Cyclops, Storm, Robin, maybe Wonder Woman, Captain America, Catwoman, and Thing.

Storm is actually #3 of X-Men!

Wolverine
Cyclops
Storm

I think Beast is 4

My science is flawless

LinkMarioSamus posted...

Did you guys hear about Chris Stuckmann's "not review" of Madame Web?

You have to be self aware at this point...

He made a video about Madame Web decrying the perils of studio interference, citing Sony engaging in such for both Spider-Man 3 and The Amazing Spider-Man series and the mixed-at-best reception to the Sony Spider-Man Universe (the supposedly official term for the collective Spider-Man-adjacent movies), and I guess because he said he wasn't "reviewing" the movie, people were confused? And decided to call him out on not having the "courage" to rip into the movie even though he specifically said he was tired of that kind of content - and who could blame him?

It actually got a surprising amount of coverage from other YouTubers...although given it seems most of the board isn't attentive towards YT I should have probably clarified that yes.

LinkMarioSamus posted...

He made a video about Madame Web decrying the perils of studio interference, citing Sony engaging in such for both Spider-Man 3 and The Amazing Spider-Man series and the mixed-at-best reception to the Sony Spider-Man Universe (the supposedly official term for the collective Spider-Man-adjacent movies), and I guess because he said he wasn't "reviewing" the movie, people were confused? And decided to call him out on not having the "courage" to rip into the movie even though he specifically said he was tired of that kind of content - and who could blame him?

It actually got a surprising amount of coverage from other YouTubers...although given it seems most of the board isn't attentive towards YT I should have probably clarified that yes.

Tell me more!

I just remember seeing a small clip from the EFAP (Every Frame A Pause, MauLer's podcast where he and some like-minded other content creators riff on YT videos) where the Critical Drinker said something like "I think Sony would prefer a good Madame Web movie". While that is broadly speaking probably more true than not, it also seems like a ridiculously naive position to make considering a lot of horror stories about executive meddling, especially considering Sony has a history of it regarding the studio's Spider-Man movies. Doesn't help the final battle of the movie apparently involves a neon Pepsi sign, plus Johnson admitting she signed on to a different script than what was used. Not to mention the director seems to have all her prior credits in TV.

Also I'm increasingly beginning to think YT is an outlier at best and a hotbed for bigotry at worst (most of the reason this doesn't come to mind is because most of the YouTubers I follow the closest do not have far-right views). It feels like, for instance, there was a lot more skepticism towards the Barbie movie there than virtually anywhere else where the movie was heavily hyped, and I feel like I hear more bile spewed at both Captain Marvel movies there than on the rest of the Internet combined.

Speaking of which, since we derailed the conversation to the MCU earlier anyway, am I the only one who feels like there was overall too much skepticism surrounding The Marvels director Nia DaCosta pre-release, at least considering people acting like she was "inexperienced" and was hired for "diversity" reasons despite having as many prior directorial credits as Ryan Coogler did when Black Panther came out and it being just as charitable to assume Monica Rambeau's actress Teyonah Parris recommended her after they did Candyman together...then again I guess that would require people to keep track of what actors play who and who directed what. Also I guess I don't keep such a close eye on the race and gender of the people making and acting in movies, maybe because I'm not white myself? I feel like a bit of a weirdo since I watch mostly older movies and yet I tend to notice the relative lack of roles for women and POC in them more than the comparative abundance of them in newer movies.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if there was market research indicating that women prefer to see movies with female leads and people of color movies with non-white leads (especially their own ethnicity) while men don't have as strong a preference to see movies with male leads and ditto white people for movies with white leads. Considering how stupid Hollywood executives are, it would explain a lot of crap that has come out within the past decade or so.

bv d tn i

Aecioo posted...

Tell me more!

How dare u

foolm0r0n posted...

How dare u

LinkMarioSamus posted...

I just remember seeing a small clip from the EFAP (Every Frame A Pause, MauLer's podcast where he and some like-minded other content creators riff on YT videos) where the Critical Drinker said something like "I think Sony would prefer a good Madame Web movie". While that is broadly speaking probably more true than not, it also seems like a ridiculously naive position to make considering a lot of horror stories about executive meddling, especially considering Sony has a history of it regarding the studio's Spider-Man movies. Doesn't help the final battle of the movie apparently involves a neon Pepsi sign, plus Johnson admitting she signed on to a different script than what was used. Not to mention the director seems to have all her prior credits in TV.

Also I'm increasingly beginning to think YT is an outlier at best and a hotbed for bigotry at worst (most of the reason this doesn't come to mind is because most of the YouTubers I follow the closest do not have far-right views). It feels like, for instance, there was a lot more skepticism towards the Barbie movie there than virtually anywhere else where the movie was heavily hyped, and I feel like I hear more bile spewed at both Captain Marvel movies there than on the rest of the Internet combined.

Speaking of which, since we derailed the conversation to the MCU earlier anyway, am I the only one who feels like there was overall too much skepticism surrounding The Marvels director Nia DaCosta pre-release, at least considering people acting like she was "inexperienced" and was hired for "diversity" reasons despite having as many prior directorial credits as Ryan Coogler did when Black Panther came out and it being just as charitable to assume Monica Rambeau's actress Teyonah Parris recommended her after they did Candyman together...then again I guess that would require people to keep track of what actors play who and who directed what. Also I guess I don't keep such a close eye on the race and gender of the people making and acting in movies, maybe because I'm not white myself? I feel like a bit of a weirdo since I watch mostly older movies and yet I tend to notice the relative lack of roles for women and POC in them more than the comparative abundance of them in newer movies.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if there was market research indicating that women prefer to see movies with female leads and people of color movies with non-white leads (especially their own ethnicity) while men don't have as strong a preference to see movies with male leads and ditto white people for movies with white leads. Considering how stupid Hollywood executives are, it would explain a lot of crap that has come out within the past decade or so.

Tell me more!

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/4/4aad8f94.jpg

Man, The Marvel's does not deserve to be in a list with those others.