Board 8 > It's making sounds inside. It's going to hatch soon. Oh?

(+) Yeah! (+)

"Treat others how you want to be treated" does not, in fact, mean "project all of your baggage onto other people." Maybe 'congratulations' doesn't mean anything to you, but maybe it does to other people.

I'm not going to continue to engage in this a whole lot more, because I think you're beyond the point where I can help you, and I don't think turning this into a big argument is going to help Bolo, and dwelling on any of it certainly isn't going to help me. But I'm going to have to repudiate your attempts to define everyone's trans experience in the language of misery at least this one time. It doesn't have to be that way for everyone; please don't spend your efforts making it that way.

MariaTaylor posted...

Why? You think you're capable of hurting my feelings or something?

Nah, just decided my initial response wasn't the direction I wanted the topic to go. There has been and probably will again be plenty of time to be dark.

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Congrats, Bolo! So happy for you, wishing you the best.

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I'm not projecting anything. I said "in my experience" and then shared my own experiences.

I really hate to tell you this but if you can't handle someone saying "This was my experience, and it sucked," then I've got some bad news for you. Other people are going to say and do much worse things. And it's not going to come from a place of sympathy. And there's a good chance you will have to live through many of the negative experiences I have talked about. Not just read about someone else going through them.

You seriously cannot sit here and act like it's MY efforts that are making thing this way for everyone. This is how things ARE. I'm just describing it.


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For the record Maria's post was kinda the long form of why I said "it sounds scary to feel the need to when you hadn't before" since I do see that as a very possible path, and not one I would like to risk going down unless I was darn sure I was that uncomfortable with the gender I currently was.

I mean maybe it's projecting emotional baggage but I don't think it's something that shouldn't be said either. On a personal level I know some young teenage girls who are deciding they're men now (despite being way more "girly" than a lot of women I've known in my life) and like I'm not sure they're really thinking this through or are just reading too much social media and being trendy. Like I don't think I had a strong sense of self even when I was 19 to be honest-- it's a big decision to make, and just being super accepting all the time isn't always the answer either. It should be an informed decision that properly weighs everything, and even possible causes for the perceived need that aren't related to an inherent disconnect with gender identity, not a decision that is merely accepted no matter what.

Now all that being said is Bolo is a grown ass woman so I doubt we're the first group she's brought this to or the first time she's thought about the cost and whatnot of this choice, so I mean, it perhaps doesn't have a place here since presumably Bolo doesn't spend 4 hours a day on Instagram wanting to make a gender reveal as an excuse to make a Pokemon post to all her friends online, but yeah.

Point is I don't really think what Maria said was that out of line. The heart was in the right place at least. But then again you know me I'm a ray of sunshine, way more positive than this place.

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Are people in here familiar with tombolos? They're a fun part of nature, and a fun word to say.

Congratulations!
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MariaTaylor posted...

some shit

Lopen posted...

some other shit

reconsider

Nah. I'm not being negative at all. If you take what I'm saying as negative then you are really being too sensitive about this.

Me and Bolo have been cool for many years now. Well actually she probably hates me for abandoning 9000verse but you know. I'm not out to be a jerk about anything.

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Hey congratulations on your new car, I was involved in a really bad accident that wasnt my fault, so just be ready for some lunatic to drive into you at any time. Dont be happy about your car.

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I'm good. I've already said what I wanted to say, and I fully stand by everything that I said.

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Lopen posted...

she probably hates me for abandoning 9000verse

you were just ahead of your time!!

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Accusing the people who said 'congratulations' of inevitably turning on her is not a statement you should be standing by. Like, even if you think that cisgender people aren't truly accepting, you're also assuming everyone who said that is cis, which is demonstrably untrue.

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CasanovaZelos posted...

Accusing the people who said 'congratulations' of inevitably turning on her is not a statement you should be standing by.

Many of them will.

I know it. Para knows it. Many of the people who said "congratulations" know it. They'll go out of their way to avoid saying "she" or "her" in the future because it makes them uncomfortable. I've been using this account for 8 years, and "saveus_Maria" for several years before that. There are still people who refuse to call me Maria. But saying "Congratulations" right now is easy, and it lets them pretend for a moment that they really are accepting.

Deep down, you probably know it too.

CasanovaZelos posted...

Like, even if you think that cisgender people aren't truly accepting, you're also assuming everyone who said that is cis, which is demonstrably untrue.

This is just a desperate attempt to take my words out of context, assert that a handful of genuine individuals somehow refutes the existence of the people I'm actually talking about, and invalidate my experience. Because my experience isn't convenient for people who want to feel good about themselves.


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MariaTaylor posted...

I know it. Para knows it.

You don't know anything about me.

I don't know that you just said this two hours ago???

Paratroopa1 posted...

Maria, I'm sorry that was your experience, it's super shitty and I can relate in more ways than one.

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Maria is the personification of those animal cruelty commercials.

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As a general rule, having negative experiences and promising them for others isnt doing them a favour. Its taking your pain and rage and sending it at others. Who does that help?

Edit: I dont want to be harsh my point is I have yet to find any issue in life where promising someone misery just for existing has had a positive effect, even if it were accurate.

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Lopen posted...

Like I don't think I had a strong sense of self even when I was 19 to be honest

I'm way beyond 19 and I'm not fully there yet

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I thought the correct saying was treat people how they want to be treated

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HanOfTheNekos posted...

Maria is the personification of those animal cruelty commercials.

see, this is actually funny. I can totally see what you mean, and it makes sense. I can't remember the last time someone tried to throw a zinger at me in a topic like this and it was legitimately funny or relevant.

literally compare this to 'car accidents happen so you shouldn't buy a car????' and it's like shit vs gold.

Lightning Strikes posted...

As a general rule, having negative experiences and promising them for others isnt doing them a favour. Its taking your pain and rage and sending it at others. Who does that help?

Edit: I dont want to be harsh my point is I have yet to find any issue in life where promising someone misery just for existing has had a positive effect, even if it were accurate.

I'm not a good person.

GTM posted...

I thought the correct saying was treat people how they want to be treated

Some people would want me to suck their dick, but I'm not going to do it.

Some people want me to act cute and harmless, but if I know that I'm right and what I'm saying is the truth, I'm going to say it.

(Also it's definitely always been 'treat others how you would like to be treated.' But I have seen people recently saying it should be the other way.)


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Please just ignore Maria everyone. She's said what she wanted to say and the initial post probably is a relevant perspective, but continuing to engage in this argument isn't helping anyone.

Congrats Bolo. I don't think we've interacted much but I wish you the best.
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Seems like everyone I know is coming out as trans. Including myself.

Figures this is as good as anytime to mention I'm genderfluid. I didn't realize it at first because I went back to being a girl so I really never second guessed things. Even as a 6th grader I always thought that somehow I was a boy being raised as a girl (and then realized that I didn't want to be a boy, so I stopped those thoughts right away.) I did get more feminine as I got older then several people I know came out as trans so I started thinking about it myself. I flux between female and certain degrees of non-binary.

I'm still using this account because it turns out the character I got the name from (a Tamora Pierce novel) the character of Alanna is also genderfluid. (The author revealed it years later)

So do you want me to call you Tomina? Or are you going to be a tomboy now? (sorry for the bad pun)If you want to talk you can always private message me.

Edit: I still use She pronouns.

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Alanna82 posted...

I'm genderfluid

eyyyy

Alanna82 posted...

it turns out the character I got the name from (a Tamora Pierce novel) the character of Alanna is also genderfluid.

eyyyyy

Alanna82 posted...

Tomina

this amuses me, I'll allow it

I don't feel super compelled to jump in on any particular angle in the tussle- I've taken hard enough hits already that I don't really feel like I need to be warned about them, but I've also taken hard enough hits already that I'm not bothered by a little pessimism. Ain't been and ain't gonna be the most fun thing I've ever done, but it's better than where I was.

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Alanna82 posted...

Seems like everyone I know is coming out as trans. Including myself.

It's amazing how board 8's percentage of female users has shot up despite no new users

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pyresword posted...

Please just ignore Maria everyone.

I fully endorse this strategy btw. I almost never quote and respond to posts except for people who directly address me first.

People -- just stfu and leave me alone if you don't like what I'm saying. It's that easy.


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MZero posted...

It's amazing how board 8's percentage of female users has shot up despite no new users

the trans-genda will get you next!

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Congrats Tombolo!

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pyresword posted...

Please just ignore Maria everyone. She's said what she wanted to say and the initial post probably is a relevant perspective, but continuing to engage in this argument isn't helping anyone.

Congrats Bolo. I don't think we've interacted much but I wish you the best.

I'm not going to talk to her anymore, but it isn't about her, anyway. I just really don't like people trying to force-feed this blackpill stuff to others during moments like this where they're opening up to others - that kind of shit has been a big obstacle to me coming out and understanding myself for years and I really don't like to see it in a moment that should be positive and happy. Which it is! Fuck that! I love all you guys and gals.

MZero posted...

It's amazing how board 8's percentage of female users has shot up despite no new users

I guess I still count as a "female user" as sometimes I do identify as female. (Its weird how I never noticed that my gender was fluid until I started to pay attention. )

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I feel like I don't post enough to justify 'coming out' as agender here. Like, I've identified as such for several years in person, but I wouldn't expect people to remember that about me unless I had a bigger presence.

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Congrats, Bolo (and Alanna)!

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MetalmindStats posted...

Congrats, Bolo (and Alanna)!

Thanks Metalmind ^_^

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congrats Bolo!

tbh I think being trans is an internal state, not something that depends on whether you're publicly "out" or female-presenting. like for Maria I think it's totally valid to say "attempting to pass as female is just too much work, I'm not going to bother" but it also doesn't disqualify you from being trans. you are who you are; everyone picks and chooses what aspects of themselves to show to the world.

also for whatever it's worth I've straight up thought of you as a girl ever since an Into the Dungeon episode where you were, like, squishing someone and referred to yourself with female pronouns. I was just like "oh that's how it is? ok sure"
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I remember, trust me. You are the only user on board 8 who has consistently used my preferred pronouns, and I always appreciated it.


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We love you Tom.

I want to believe that men and women can do everything, but being men and women is a part of everything. I know you'll succeed

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Oh well ok then.

Good vibes only bolo


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congrats tom!
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MariaTaylor posted...

I remember, trust me. You are the only user on board 8 who has consistently used my preferred pronouns, and I always appreciated it.

I'm sorry if I misgendered you in the past Maria. If I did it was because I didn't know your pronouns. When I first started posting a user named froq kept calling me a he. So I know what its like to be referred to with the wrong pronouns.

I use she/her because there is only one of me and I usually do feel at least part female.

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Alanna82 posted...

I use she/her because there is only one of me

I use they/them and there's only one of me. What does this mean?

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A lot of English majors used to take issue with the singular they. But I think since like 2019 it's been accepted by more institutions.

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English having no singular they is one of those things scholars made up a couple centuries back and everyone just went with it to sound proper. But there are examples of singular they that are older than examples of singular you - and I've never seen anyone give a legitimate reason why it's okay for 'you' to be both singular and plural but not 'they.'

And even if those old examples didn't exist, all languages evolve over time, and this is clearly a case where it has evolved.

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Things would be a lot easier if we could just use "it" like in some other languages, but unfortunately using the same pronouns for living things and objects became taboo at some point

Also I didn't know about the egg thing, so I learned something from this topic! Best of luck to you Bolo and I hope you are happier than you were before

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I definitely thought this was about having a kid, but congrats.

Contrary to some posts in this topic all I care about is that you're happy. I might in the future refer to you by the wrong gender but know it's out of a predisposition of the past 15 years and not an attack

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I'm sorry if I've ever messed up your pronouns Maria. I'm sure I probably have but know that it was never intentional.

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I think the egg metaphor has not gained widespread use outside of lgbt circles in the way that "coming out of the closet" has. I could be wrong, but the only way I knew about it was from browsing a particular lgbt subreddit, and I've never heard the term anywhere else.
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CasanovaZelos posted...

English having no singular they is one of those things scholars made up a couple centuries back and everyone just went with it to sound proper. But there are examples of singular they that are older than examples of singular you - and I've never seen anyone give a legitimate reason why it's okay for 'you' to be both singular and plural but not 'they.'

And even if those old examples didn't exist, all languages evolve over time, and this is clearly a case where it has evolved.

Sorry if I offended you Cassanova.
I've been accused of having multiple personality disorder in the past and the pronoun "they" gives me bad memories. Referring to myself as they brings me to a bad place. It took me so long to realize that everything was just different aspects of myself.

I'm not saying other people cannot use they. (and sorry if I called you something other than they before, I didn't know that was what you used.)

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Alanna82 posted...

Sorry if I offended you Cassanova.
I've been accused of having multiple personality disorder in the past and the pronoun "they" gives me bad memories. Referring to myself as they brings me to a bad place. It took me so long to realize that everything was just different aspects of myself.

I'm not saying other people cannot use they. (and sorry if I called you something other than they before, I didn't know that was what you used.)

No offense taken - I have just encountered other queer folk (usually older transgender people) who try to throw people who use non-standard pronouns under the bus. Your phrasing reminded me of that, but considering what you had already stated about your identity, that seemed unlikely and I wanted a better understanding. The comment you quoted was more specifically in response to FFDragon.

And I'm not sure how many people here know I use they/them pronouns? It's not something I bring up much, as I'm rarely in a position where people are talking about me. And as someone who specifically identifies as agender, I would rather people not acknowledge my gender at all. I think part of the reason I'm drawn to internet forums is that I can remain a faceless entity, where people can get a sense of my person without knowledge of my body.

Which, part of that is because presenting as agender in person is difficult. Practically everything in our culture is gendered one way or another, and it's not that I want to blur the line between feminine and masculine as much as I want to remove both altogether. I used to idolize Daft Punk growing up, and I realized over time this was largely due to their ability to present as nondescript while existing in the spotlight. They still presented as masculine robots, but they managed to emphasize the robot part in a way I have always wanted to emulate.

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