Poll of the Day > So people prefer less complex storied games?

(+) Yeah! (+)

On todays poll I was asked "How complex do you like your stories in games". Most people picked that they like them complex but not to complex. I'm kind of bummed out about that and find this to be true for alot of reasons. I have noticed hardly anyone discusses anything pertaining to Detroit Become Human, 25th Ward: The Silver Case, and any of the Nonary games. Those so far in the last few years I've played have been the most complex stories I've gotten out of games.

I kind of find that interesting that hardly anyone really plays any deep thought oriented game.
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voice acting has dumbed down video game plots

I love complex stories, but only when theyre done right and you go in to the game knowing itll be a great story if the writers are good. If I know the writers arent experienced with complex stories, thats fine, just so long as they know this and dont try to ham up the games story as complex.

Otherwise, Im perfectly happy with great gameplay.

If the story isnt enjoyable and the gameplay sucks, then its a wash. Ill probally still play it, though.

NaclynE posted...

On todays poll I was asked "How complex do you like your stories in games". Most people picked that they like them complex but not to complex. I'm kind of bummed out about that and find this to be true for alot of reasons. I have noticed hardly anyone discusses anything pertaining to Detroit Become Human, 25th Ward: The Silver Case, and any of the Nonary games. Those so far in the last few years I've played have been the most complex stories I've gotten out of games.

I kind of find that interesting that hardly anyone really plays any deep thought oriented game.

I like Detroit: Become Human and the Nonary games. And Danganronpa. And Phoenix Wright. But I also don't want the stories to complex. I would like to be able to follow them. And a game is suppose to be fun. Not work. If the story is too complex, it might not be fun. Those games are usually more like puzzles, though. The Nonary games are very complex. It hard to even explain the story to people. Harder to do so without spoilers... Anyway, it's all about how much fun people want to have...
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i don't want a convoluted story where you have to play multiple times, or research just to find out the plot.
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Some people, sure

Im playing Detroit right now and really digging it, its better than most movies honestly
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WastelandCowboy posted...

I love complex stories, but only when theyre done right and you go in to the game knowing itll be a great story if the writers are good.

More or less my stance. In terms of well written and maybe complex story, Planescape Torment is the first to mind for me.
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LinkPizza posted...

NaclynE posted...

On todays poll I was asked "How complex do you like your stories in games". Most people picked that they like them complex but not to complex. I'm kind of bummed out about that and find this to be true for alot of reasons. I have noticed hardly anyone discusses anything pertaining to Detroit Become Human, 25th Ward: The Silver Case, and any of the Nonary games. Those so far in the last few years I've played have been the most complex stories I've gotten out of games.

I kind of find that interesting that hardly anyone really plays any deep thought oriented game.

I like Detroit: Become Human and the Nonary games. And Danganronpa. And Phoenix Wright. But I also don't want the stories to complex. I would like to be able to follow them. And a game is suppose to be fun. Not work. If the story is too complex, it might not be fun. Those games are usually more like puzzles, though. The Nonary games are very complex. It hard to even explain the story to people. Harder to do so without spoilers... Anyway, it's all about how much fun people want to have...

Valid points and good examples since yeah those games do have complex stories. But yeah I understand where your're coming from with peoples opinions.
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I like Mario

FinalFantasyVII posted...

voice acting has dumbed down video game plots

Lol.
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MICHALECOLE posted...

I like Mario

thats pretty complex.
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Krazy_Kirby posted...

i don't want a convoluted story where you have to play multiple times, or research just to find out the plot.

This
You can have a meaningful plot without it being complex
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Ogurisama posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

i don't want a convoluted story where you have to play multiple times, or research just to find out the plot.

This
You can have a meaningful plot without it being complex

To some degree the Nier games being structured like this is kinda discouraging me from giving them a try.
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I want an engaging story, not a philosophical lecture. The story is there to lead the game forward and mindfuckery distinctly detach story from gameplay.
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InfestedAdam posted...

Ogurisama posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

i don't want a convoluted story where you have to play multiple times, or research just to find out the plot.

This
You can have a meaningful plot without it being complex

To some degree the Nier games being structured like this is kinda discouraging me from giving them a try.

To me the Nier games are complex even though unlike the games I mentioned how they play is a bit more simplified where Nonary Games are like puzzle games and multi choice routes and as LinkPizza mentioned Dangiaroppa is a adventure lawyer puzzle game. The Neir games are hack n slash action games that do have an equal deep plot as the titles as mentioned.
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I don't mind complex stories, but it drives me nuts when JPRGs make up a bunch of words, throw them out randomly, make up more words, only use these words in context of each other, and it's just a mess where you don't understand any of it.
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CarefreeDude posted...

I don't mind complex stories, but it drives me nuts when JPRGs make up a bunch of words, throw them out randomly, make up more words, only use these words in context of each other, and it's just a mess where you don't understand any of it.

I kind of agree with some games have to much ingame lore that it can be overkill. I'm fine with curency or whatever but year, this year a certain thing happened, 'blackrose day' etc I'm like "What is all that again?" (spends more time with in game lore reading than playing the game).
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CarefreeDude posted...

I don't mind complex stories, but it drives me nuts when JPRGs make up a bunch of words, throw them out randomly, make up more words, only use these words in context of each other, and it's just a mess where you don't understand any of it.

You mean like when any game has characters with names and references them relative to eachother? Because remembering your homeworld is Sylverant shouldn't be any more difficult than remembering your character is called Joel.
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CarefreeDude posted...

I don't mind complex stories, but it drives me nuts when JPRGs make up a bunch of words, throw them out randomly, make up more words, only use these words in context of each other, and it's just a mess where you don't understand any of it.

Literally every single fantasy thing ever makes up words.
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Love complex stories. The more complex the better. BUT all of that must be contained in the game and nothing important should be missable if you don't meet really specific criteria (unless that is a requirement to actually beat the game). The only exception is BlazBlue because that shit hooked me up hard enough for me to overlook the need to search for side material to just barely get what's happening.

VixYW posted...

Love complex stories. The more complex the better. BUT all of that must be contained in the game and nothing important should be missable if you don't meet really specific criteria (unless that is a requirement to actually beat the game).

Well in some old school Commadore 64 adventure type games you would need to know the ingame lore from reading the instruction book or the lore manual included with the game but not in the game itself to progress certain points like a guy asks you what ProjectXdelta9 is. Answer wrong your character gets jailed and it's game over.

I admit that's annoying. I like finding clues in game not in real life some times. Lol.
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For me the more complex a story is, usually, the better. Still, there's games like Chrono Cross which are genuinely convoluted.
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None of David Cage's games are 'complex'. They're stupid and ridiculous. There's a difference.
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Complex stories are fine, I've never had a problem following complex stories, but it's not the deciding factor to if a story is good.

What determines if a story is good is if the characters are well written.

You can get away with a basic plot if the characters are well written.

No matter how "amazingly written" your plot is, it will still be terrible if the characters are all poorly written.
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Complexity in a story can be fun, but not if it gets in the way of the actual game, which is always a risk. In particular, if you need to break the immersion of the gameplay in order to tell the story, it's probably too complex. That said, I'm perfectly fine with things like Warcraft that have loads of extra-game lore to peruse and flesh out the universe, so long as it isn't necessary to enjoy the story as presented in-game.

Complex is fine. Convoluted - not so much. That's part of why Final Fantasy VII is probably my least favourite of the FF series (yes, I know, unpopular opinion, I'm not posting it for flamebait, JMO).
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Revelation34 posted...

FinalFantasyVII posted...

voice acting has dumbed down video game plots

Lol.

To be honest, that's true.

You need to make a 20+ hour game with, say 5 hours of actual talking plot where cut scenes happen and characters actually exist.

When you're in game development, things get cut and added all of the time (when you have to make it in two years or so, the quicker end of game development). So, you have a plot that goes A->B->C->D where everything makes sense and works. Buuuut, you get told to change C to E because the game devs learn that the level they were building for C just wasn't enjoyable and they wanted an E section instead. So you change the plot and characters around so E makes sense.
Then when you need to write and make the characters make sense for the story, but you need to do it with a whole bunch of time to spare because you need the voice actors can actually read the lines. Also then they need to be added to the game, lip sync with the game, and set everything up right. This takes up a whole bunch of time. So then when that time comes, you need to scrap part B because it wasn't working out, and you just need to produce the damn game.
So now it goes A->E->D, and it still works, it's just sort of shit and uninteresting.

But, if you didn't have voice acting, you could spend more time refining the story, and adding better word choice, and adding extra dialog options into it. You can just do straight up more story and make it more interesting and a reason why people actually like it.
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NaclynE posted...

I kind of find that interesting that hardly anyone really plays any deep thought oriented game.

One has to be made first.
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CarefreeDude posted...

I don't mind complex stories, but it drives me nuts when JPRGs make up a bunch of words, throw them out randomly, make up more words, only use these words in context of each other, and it's just a mess where you don't understand any of it.

This holy shit, one of the reasons I hate alot of JRPGs, that and the whole mostly talking instead of playing the game.

Complex doesn't automatically mean "Good", a story can be simple and fun, if you try to make it complex without direction you end up with something like the Metal Gear series.

Also LOL at calling David Cage games Complex, they're about as complex as pushing a button.
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shadowsword87 posted...

But, if you didn't have voice acting, you could spend more time refining the story, and adding better word choice, and adding extra dialog options into it. You can just do straight up more story and make it more interesting and a reason why people actually like it.

Pretty much. Rewriting a scene in a text-only game? An hour or two of writing and ten minutes to copy it into the code (and that's only for a major rewrite). Rewriting a scene in a game with VA? An hour or two of writing, then however long it takes to pin down the voice actors for several hours of recording each, then a few hours of editing, then several days of work to reanimate the scene (possibly needing to get some time with mocap actors) and get the lip syncing right, then some unknown amount of time to get the audio decompression working right to have the lines played at the appropriate time in game.

It's substantially more time (and therefore money) and substantially more people (and therefore money), which strongly promotes keeping stories simpler so rewrites won't be necessary.
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Kingdom Hearts is about as "complex" as I go.
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jsb0714 posted...

NaclynE posted...

I kind of find that interesting that hardly anyone really plays any deep thought oriented game.

One has to be made first.

Got me there. I suppose there has yet to be a game where people still question and share each other's theories on what happened in it.
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I don't like complex storied games because I can go without playing the same game for weeks at a time. Coming back without a fresh memory will put me off a game and lead me to not finishing it.
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If you want a good story just read a book. Games only have C writers. And stories in games should be some complementary to the gameplay not the other way around.

Few people like having to play through a game twice to get the story.
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I couldn't care less about story.
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One example of an overly complex plot with lots of words thrown around is anything Rita says in the final act of Tales of Vesperia
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Well people liked Skyrim more than Morrowind, so yeah. Morrowind has one hell of a story. Skyrim doesn't even bother explaining why all the dwarves disappeared. Morrowind explains it, though it takes a lot of effort to understand what it means.
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CarefreeDude posted...

One example of an overly complex plot with lots of words thrown around is anything Rita says in the final act of Tales of Vesperia

But that's the plot, not the story. As with my Morrowind example, you can have a fairly sane plot but still have a lot of story around that you have to go looking for.

If you become a Vampire in Morrowind and no longer wish to be, you'll have to go looking for the solution. No one tells you.
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wwinterj25 posted...

Kingdom Hearts is about as "complex" as I go.

Kingdom Hearts isn't "complex" it straight stopped making sense after Kingdom Hearts 1 when they started retconning the lore to justify introducing new characters, and making more games/prequels.
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waterdeepchu posted...

Well people liked Skyrim more than Morrowind, so yeah. Morrowind has one hell of a story. Skyrim doesn't even bother explaining why all the dwarves disappeared. Morrowind explains it, though it takes a lot of effort to understand what it means.

i think more people have played skyrim.
i would love to replay morrowind but it's so clunky and dated (control/animation, i can tolerate the graphics)
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TigerTycoon posted...

Kingdom Hearts isn't "complex" it straight stopped making sense after Kingdom Hearts 1 when they started retconning the lore to justify introducing new characters, and making more games/prequels.

I mean the quotations were around the word "complex" for a reason.
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I play video games to enjoy myself, not have a thought provoking introspection. As Warren Specktor once said: "[Games are] about you telling your story, not me telling mine. It's about you."
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shadowsword87 posted...

To be honest, that's true.

You need to make a 20+ hour game with, say 5 hours of actual talking plot where cut scenes happen and characters actually exist.

When you're in game development, things get cut and added all of the time (when you have to make it in two years or so, the quicker end of game development). So, you have a plot that goes A->B->C->D where everything makes sense and works. Buuuut, you get told to change C to E because the game devs learn that the level they were building for C just wasn't enjoyable and they wanted an E section instead. So you change the plot and characters around so E makes sense.
Then when you need to write and make the characters make sense for the story, but you need to do it with a whole bunch of time to spare because you need the voice actors can actually read the lines. Also then they need to be added to the game, lip sync with the game, and set everything up right. This takes up a whole bunch of time. So then when that time comes, you need to scrap part B because it wasn't working out, and you just need to produce the damn game.
So now it goes A->E->D, and it still works, it's just sort of shit and uninteresting.

But, if you didn't have voice acting, you could spend more time refining the story, and adding better word choice, and adding extra dialog options into it. You can just do straight up more story and make it more interesting and a reason why people actually like it.

None of it is true. What you stated also doesn't happen.
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waterdeepchu posted...

Well people liked Skyrim more than Morrowind, so yeah. Morrowind has one hell of a story. Skyrim doesn't even bother explaining why all the dwarves disappeared. Morrowind explains it, though it takes a lot of effort to understand what it means.

That makes sense. It's like if you just play Zero Escape 9 Doors 9 Hours 9 Persons I doubt you'll understand what happened. But if you play all three you'll understand the games more. Same goes for Morrowind, the game after that then Skyrim.
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David cage games never have a well written story.
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I enjoy a complex story, but the more complex the greater chance they have for turning into rubbish. I'm ok with things like cliches or obvious twists as long as they're done gracefully and make sense within the world the writer is building. For the record, I went with "Interesting" because I find those are far more likely to turn out well.

Stories aren't that dissimilar from other creations. Just an example, a writer uses a pen, a carpenter uses a hammer. Some are also better than others. Would you prefer a competently built, simple structure or a monstrosity which exceeds the builder's skill that could collapse at any moment? Not that there aren't a few truly beautiful examples of writing, and architecture, but not everything can or needs to be to fulfill its purpose.

Games also have a distinct advantage compared to a traditional story, most obviously, gameplay. A game with a mediocre story can still survive well enough. There's a chance it could hurt the overall experience, but then most people would probably be forgiving if the game is just that fun. Sometimes a game can even forgo a story entirely and still enjoy almost universal acclaim. Tetris, anyone?

@Red_Frog So true about Tetris, Klax, Blockout, Qix, whatever.
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waterdeepchu posted...

Well people liked Skyrim more than Morrowind, so yeah. Morrowind has one hell of a story. Skyrim doesn't even bother explaining why all the dwarves disappeared. Morrowind explains it, though it takes a lot of effort to understand what it means.

Skyrim seemed to explain it in some of the lore. Plus a lot of the problem with Skyrim's story is that you had the choice of campaigns between Stormcloaks and Imperials, which limited what could be done.

Plus the preference between Morrowind and Skyrim almost certainly comes down far more than just the story... The fact that you're trying to boil it down to that shows you don't understand the appeal.
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Revelation34 posted...

None of it is true. What you stated also doesn't happen.

Literally every single thing he said was true, and has happened multiple times over the last few years alone.

He's basically describing the exact reason why Destiny turned out to be hot liquid shit. And his comment about voice acting is basically the reason why Fallout 4 and pretty much every BioWare game post-Jade Empire/Dragon Age:Origins have overly simplified dialogue choices (and a narrative that suffers for it).


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