Board 8 > so, Metroid: Samus Returns

(+) Yeah! (+)

I just tried AM2R for about an hour and holy shit it's amazing. I'm not too jazzed about the metroid hunting structure with the hard gating but that's not their fault. All the modern improvements like the morph button and sucking in pickups with charge beam and particle effects and such are awesome. It doesn't feel like Nintendo at all, but it feels totally Metroid.

I was even able to sequence break already, getting the spider ball before bombs. It's inconsequential, but that kinda stuff is what makes 2D Metroid completely incomparable to other games in the genre.
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Played Samus Returns and completed the first area. I'm at the same point in both Samus Returns and AM2R. Thoughts.

Samus Returns is the better Metroid 2 remake. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the better game, but it's definitely the better Metroid 2 remake. Both games are incredibly deferential to the source material, but as for maintaining the haunting atmosphere, clausterphobic feel, and intense notion that one slip up could lead to instant death-- that's where Samus Returns really shines.

I'm impressed by both games, but AM2R feels too much like Zero Mission in regards to physics and general mechanics. A big part of Metroid 2 beyond the atmosphere was that it didn't play like other Metroids. Normal enemies were annoying and tedious to fight, fights against Metroids were frustrating and often involved cheesing them into a position where they were inert because otherwise you would die instantly. Aiming at anything was meticulous and challenging. Despite all that combat was exciting. For as far as I got in AM2R (I will finish it) this, along with the feeling of dread and clausterohobia, was lacking. Samus Returns changed up the combat to emphasize these points while updating the gameplay.

I look forward to beating both games. Gonna finish Samus Returns first. It'll be interesting to see how the map layouts begin to deviate from the source material and how they work in new powerups. So far I'm highly pleased.
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listening to the 8-4 podcast and they call it the best controlling metroid game in the series

so it probably really does just come down to how you feel about the circle pad
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I'll agree that Samus Returns has the better atmosphere. Fusion's better than Zero Mission there too though and Zero Mission is way better. then again, Zero Mission is my game. the fact that AM2R is largely ripping off Zero Mission is a good thing for me, not a drawback.

it's interesting that you view Metroid 2 through the lens of a survival game more than through a playable Metroid game. I guess you can make that argument - I wouldn't, but I have in other games like Limbo. Metroid is about traversal above all other things for me though and the fact that getting around isn't as friendly as other games makes it a struggle. I'm getting better at it though. I just fundamentally don't like the idea of sitting still and waiting for things to come to you.

AM2R's single button morph is so fun. I like jumping from a high place and repeatedly morphing to mess with the physics and clear more vertical space. so fun.
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You can tap the screen to morph immediately. It can be a little awkward, but it's still pretty effective.

But yeah, so far AM2R is just a better game.
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I've used it for spidering on the ceiling a few times. it's awkward but lets me go slightly out of sequence.

high jump and spring ball have helped a lot though. more time to react in the air is awfully helpful.
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Games great
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I think you have to take into consideration that there isn't really a Metroid formula yet there exists an expectation to mimic Super Metroid. Think of it this way-- the original Metroid, as soon as you got the bombs and ice beam, you can go anywhere on the map besides Tourian. There is no upgrades gating or anything. Metroid 2 followed a similar pattern with an open ended world but introduced gating in the form of lava amd a greater emphasis on upgrade utility and combat. It was a pretty linear, clausterphobic game, that felt vast but really wasn't once you realize how the gating works and non-necessity of backtracking.

I'll skip Super Metroid since that's well understood. Fusion is more or less a survival horror game packaged as a Metroid with yet another gating mechanic that deviates from Super Metroid. Though you were guided along a set path it still felt like you were exploring because you were only ever given a small fraction of the map. Zero Mission set out to mimic Super Metroid and largely succeed- even then though it still bypasses a lot of the upgrade gating with the developer intended 'sequence breaks' which harken back to the open endedness of the original.

For the 2d Metroid games I would argue there isn't really a set formula. They all have stuff in common but do things very differently. I think, in many ways, it's good to not constantly ape Super Metroid. There are enough games that already do that.
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yo I'm actually really liking this game

I'm enjoying the combat pretty darn well, although obviously I'll always wish for more freedom back in Metroid via controls... *cough* wall jump. On the plus side at least the walljumping they have is incredibly easy to pull off, and I've still managed some things with bomb jumping. I'm not really having any problems with the controls, free-aiming with a wave beam is pretty great stuff.

Main problem though... hidden secrets feel like such a gimmie so far.
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OliviaTremor posted...

A big part of Metroid 2 beyond the atmosphere was that it didn't play like other Metroids.

It plays a lot like Metroid 1 (except with added linearity and less difficulty). Well...Metroid 1 had its own quirks, like you couldn't even crouch, so had to kill things on the ground with bombs; M2 let you both crouch and also jump and aim down simultaneously giving you two ways to kill ground enemies.

The bosses are an improvement on Metroid 1, which says more about how bad Metroid 1 bosses were. (M2 Omega Metroids seem like a clear inspiration for Ridley's fight in Super Metroid--not as well designed, but better than the joke that was Ridley in Metroid 1).
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ninkendo posted...

listening to the 8-4 podcast and they call it the best controlling metroid game in the series

so it probably really does just come down to how you feel about the circle pad

Aren't they owned by Nintendo?
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If they were Nintendo probably wouldn't be too happy that they did the localizations for nier automata and undertale
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OliviaTremor posted...

there isn't really a Metroid formula

You're missing the point. You're right that there is just an expectation to copy Super Metroid, which is what people want when they say "metroidvania", but that's why that term is dumb and useless.

There IS a clear and strong 2D Metroid formula though, and it is in the feel and movement. It's the super snappy platforming and uninterrupting combat which makes simply moving around the world and trying to find secrets and exploits super fun and addictive. It's not a chore at all to run across the whole map. Castlevania doesn't have that (I guess SOTN kinda came close, but not enough to be part of the "metroidvania" name). Even Fusion which was super gated and intentionally gimped wall and bomb jumping still had that feel. That's why Ori and Strider immediately feel like 2D Metroid, but Axiom Verge doesn't really (although I heard it gets way better after the beginning).
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I don't get why the d-pad just doesn't automatically activate/deactivate your aeon powers. There doesn't seem to be a need to complicate it by using A while selecting one. All it does is slow down pacing when you need to use the armor or beam upgrades. I haven't gotten the fourth power yet, so maybe it justifies this? I mean, then you have the A button freed up to switch between beams instead of needing to move your thumb onto the touchpad (Or a dedicated morphball button, but I've gotten pretty used to tapping so it's no big deal).

I dunno, the game still feels sluggish and I'm in Area 4...
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I agree with foolmo on this. I think Ori feels more like "2d metroid" than Samus Returns does. (I don't think Strider belongs in the conversation but that's fine.) Fusion too, despite the gating. there's just a flow to the movement. Samus Returns feels more like Shadow Complex which likely relates to the 2.5dness of it.

CelesMyUserName posted...

yo I'm actually really liking this game

I'm enjoying the combat pretty darn well, although obviously I'll always wish for more freedom back in Metroid via controls... *cough* wall jump. On the plus side at least the walljumping they have is incredibly easy to pull off, and I've still managed some things with bomb jumping. I'm not really having any problems with the controls, free-aiming with a wave beam is pretty great stuff.

Main problem though... hidden secrets feel like such a gimmie so far.

good! I'm glad people are liking it. maybe my extreme negativity made it seem better than expected!

I agree that hidden secrets are a gimme with this map system but I don't think that's really a bad thing. I think Metroid 2's biggest flaw (really it's intentional so it's not really a flaw, but eh) is that you get stuck in an area and have to hunt to find every Metroid which can be a pain. the navigation stuff eases that a little bit by pointing you to everything. showing you exactly where the items are is a little extreme and counter to the Metroid philosophy but this game doesn't really feel like one of those so I'm okay with it. I don't really find myself enjoying this all that much when I'm stuck trying to find that last Metroid. it does better at presenting threats when they're in sight as opposed to somewhere across the vast world.
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Honestly Super Metroid itself feels kinda clunky to me. I prefer the control in the GBA games (and outright prefer Zero Mission).

As for Other M, it's enjoyable but pretty forgettable by the end of the day. When I replayed Prime I year later I kept reflecting back on MOM's bad stuff.
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transience posted...

I don't think Strider belongs in the conversation but that's fine.

I kinda agree since it's so linear but I think that just makes it more like Fusion
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yeah I kinda got stuck looking for the last metroid in Area 3 for a while until I realized that the hand-in spot points the missing ones out for you after handing them in
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this game is really diversifying. I'll say this - it's more creative than am2r. I fought one metroid that I'm pretty sure I wasn't supposed to yet and another that played hide and seek in an unusually large space. I'm enjoying it. the boss fights are painful though thanks to the aiming. I die a lot.
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I'm not really a fan of the charging enemies + countering mechanic

The game's growing on me a bit, though.
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The pace picks up a lot when you get the spazer beam
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okay, I guess this is now a playthrough topic?

I finished area 3. had zero problems finding all the metroids - didn't even have to go back to the machine to locate one. I did in area 2 because there are a lot of different powerups and it once gave me a spot I couldn't even get to because I hadn't gotten like 3 other powerups yet. that was dumb since there were 3 other metroids I could have gotten to that it didn't mark on my map. anyway, there's only one powerup in area 3 (that I found anyway) so I was able to pretty much get wherever.

I got to area 4, which is 1 metroid, and I always loved that aspect of the game. it ratchets up the pressure when it's just one. I zipped back to collect items from old areas and saved for the day. I've got 4 etanks and a hundred or so missiles.
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I finished it with 60% completion in just under 10 hours.

I dunno, I have really mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, it did a lot of things poorly. On the other hand, it was still a lot of fun. I might share my full thoughts later. In short though, good action game, bad Metroid game.

Biggest issue was how long it was, god damn
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66%, 11 hours

final boss fight soooo good an omg final "power" is the best thing in Metroid ever

I played another 45 minutes or so. spazer beam is a good add - weird how it opens doors, but I'm glad to have more options to go now. one issue I've had with this game is there's so many different blocks and doors and I have a hard time keeping them straight. I got stuck at one set of blocks for like five minutes because I thought they were screw attack blocks when they were actually just regular missile blocks. oh well, not a huge deal.

the three-room metroid was a cool idea once but they've played that card four times now and I'm real tired of it. I expected a 1 metroid area to be a unique boss but it's just that guy yet again. the next area after that is a weird chase scene that really falls flat. it seemed real cool up front until the last area becomes a trial and error/memory section. it would have been a lot better if you had a little bit of breathing room in the last section.

at least you get space jump. space jump feels good in this game, way better than super metroid and a lot like zero mission. some fun traversal leads to super missiles and the first omega metroid. I'd been dreading this since those guys are notorious and I'm dying on bosses a lot, but this was actually pretty easy! shooting him in the chest is a straight shot instead of trying to aim and that makes a world of difference here. I got him on the first try. two more metroids to go in this section.
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Oh god the flying chozo mech boss in am2r is incredible, hope they kept that in the 3ds one
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that fight is great. am2r is amazing basically from that point forward.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Oh god the flying chozo mech boss in am2r is incredible, hope they kept that in the 3ds one

It's a fine highlight of AM2R, yes.
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that fight is a cruel reminder of what could have been with metroid 2. you could have had interesting individual bosses but instead it's the same 3 things over and over.

though it seems like samus returns cuts it from 100 to 40?
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If only Samus Returns was as inspired or imaginative as AM2R. Oh well.
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Yeah the mole thing and that fight were both great. Metroid fights in all forms are total nonsense. Definitely a shame.
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wow, area 5 in samus returns is legitimately great. it's so open and it lets you just fly everywhere. it's exactly what I want out of a metroid.

one thing I'll say in this game's favor - it does a great job of making you feel powerless to super powerful. usually it's not so extreme - this game sucks to play at first but gets great as you get more and more. the game gets easier and the flow improves drastically. at this point I feel like a god and just fly everywhere without any care for the bad guys. the game even gives me these enemies that drop the equivalent of 2 etanks worth of health and they're in like every room. it's a little excessive but still great.

I think I have every powerup at this point except one. maybe I'll finish it tomorrow.
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transience posted...

one thing I'll say in this game's favor - it does a great job of making you feel powerless to super powerful. usually it's not so extreme - this game sucks to play at first but gets great as you get more and more. the game gets easier and the flow improves drastically. at this point I feel like a god and just fly everywhere without any care for the bad guys. the game even gives me these enemies that drop the equivalent of 2 etanks worth of health and they're in like every room. it's a little excessive but still great.

Yup, this is exactly how I felt. The game gets really damn good once you have all the power-ups, at least for a while imo.
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Just spent about an hour wandering around Area 2 in Samus Returns because of what I presume to be a glitch. Minor spoilers but there is a door on the bottom left of the Area 2 map, same room where you fight a Metroid, leading to a fire area. It wouldn't open for me. I would shoot it and it was one of those inactive ones. Just wouldn't open. So I did the rest of Area 2, came back to it, shot it, wouldn't open, went through every area of Area 2 again doing the Aon pulse or whatever, went back to that door, shot it again, wouldn't open, spider balled around the room bombing everything (because at this point the statue told me there was a Metroid behind the door) decided to shoot the door one more time and it opened. Super frustrating.
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played a bunch today but not a whole ton to say. I fought two new bosses - the omega metroid which is just a slightly beefier version of a previous boss, and then a Zelda-like boss that confounded the hell out of me. I beat the omega metroid after one death due to being at about half health when entering the room (I had the sound off so didn't notice the beeping) but I died a really unfortunate number of times against the other guy. every form confused me as to what I was trying to do. I spent probably 45 minutes on this guy until I finally understood how to damage each part and then it was just a matter of execution. the boss itself wasn't hard and I had some fights that went close to 7 minutes just because I was trying to figure out what to do. I'm an idiot.

with a full arsenal (is there no speed booster in this game?!, I started heading back to earlier areas to do some item cleanup. I have 3 metroids left.
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I hope they patch it to let you change the control scheme. My suggestions:

-Move with the dpad
-Free aim with the circle pad
-Cycle Aieon abilities with L
-Melee counter with R
-Fire missiles with X
-Fire beams with Y

Additionally:
-When you melee counter multiple enemies at once, stack the target locks & auto-charge shots. Like if you counter 3 enemies at once, you should be able to press Y, Y, Y and take them all out in sequence.
-Toggle Spider Ball with L, rather than hold L

Seriously though, the first time they had to double-tap down on the circle pad to go into morph ball should have told them they had to rethink their control scheme.
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Tag
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transience posted...

is there no speed booster in this game?!

No way... it's used sooooo often in AM2R. And it's easily one of the best feeling powers in general.

Anyways I did like a 3 hour session and got verrryyyyy close to the end of AM2R. The ZM gameplay really can't make up for how incredibly bland and bad the level design is... coming from Metroid 1 to this, I can really see why everyone hated it. I'm all for linearity, but you gotta do it well. This game (not sure if the original does too) just puts random bomb blocks in rooms that you have to guess for, because it doesn't have actual exploration. I hope M:SR tries to fix that at least.
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Just beat Samus Returns. It was really, really good. That said, and here comes a major spoiler

I thought the ending was way worse than Metroid 2. In Metroid 2, after you kill the Queen that's it. The baby hatches and absolutely, hauntingly beautiful music plays which is such a contrast to the rest of the eerie music in that game. There is no escape sequence, enemies or sudden surprises. It's just a beautiful scene that you play out as you return to the surface while the baby Metroid paves the way.

Samus Returns, though, decided to just fuck everything for lack of a better word. First and foremost, the Queen's lair is flat out bad compared to Metroid 2. In Metroid 2 the lair felt incredibly unique. It felt like Tourian in a game that had, up until the last two areas, been comprised of caverns. It felt like a final boss zone. In Samus Returns... I don't even know what it was supposed to be. Boring? Definitely lacked any feeling of being a final area or hell, even an area of significance. Queen battle was alright and I'm glad they kept the 'bomb the stomach trick'.

It's after the Queen that things get real dumb. While we do get the Metroid hatching and beautiful music, it's all kind of lost when there are enemies to kill and powerups to collect on your way out. Why the hell are there even powerups on the way out? It kills any surprise that there is one more boss coming, which is dumb in itself, but what's even dumber is that only your beam works on the upcoming boss meaning the powerups are useless.

Oh and the final boss is Ridley for some reason. It's an okay fight, but all his moves are predictable. I miss the Super Metroid Ridley where there was no windup for each attack and the attacks were random. Then again Ridley shouldn't be in this game. The baby Metroid attacking Ridley is alright and kind of fun, but it seemed like it was aping the finale of Super Metroid in that regard and again it kills the innocence of the Metroid. I really, really would have preferred if they stuck to the Metroid 2 ending which was always my favorite gameplay sequence in the entire series. Oh well.

Completed the game in 9:30 with 88%. I was going to do 100% but got kind of bored going back to different areas and collecting stuff so I decided to finish the game.
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Also I hate the random heated rooms and Norfair music. It makes no sense. Otherwise pretty good game.
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I posted a "review" for gamefaqs because it was 4 posts long. It's actually just a rant.

Glad there's no speed boost though,
since shinesparking on the circle pad would be a mess.
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Oh it apparently takes a while for those to post so here

https://pastebin.com/ejP54x2x

Spoilers tho
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I agree with nearly everything in your review, besides the emphasis of counters. I hardly used counters. The game became way more evenly paced once I stopped using the ice beam in area 2. That thing is useless beyond creating platforms and kills momentum.

You are absolutely right though regarding the three big concerns I had-- each area is a cave with a slightly different background, there are hardly any unique enemies, and the final section of the game is all kinds of wrong. What I find odd is that the first two things, lack of unique feeling areas and enemies, didn't bother me at all in Metroid 2. Maybe that's because each individual area was much smaller and tighter in terms of design? But hell, even as you get to the end of Metroid 2 the areas start to become more unique as you mention in your review. Samus Returns has the same problem that the DS Castlevania games would end up having-- copy paste rooms with different backgrounds to trick people into thinking they created unique rooms. Super Metroid will always be the pinnacle of the Metroidvania series because it truly had unique rooms. Each room in that game looked different than the last and felt different than the last. Samus Returns really drops the ball there, which is unfortunate because there are hints of something brilliant. Area 5 as Tranny mentioned is amazing, except it really isn't. It could have been amazing but at the end of the day it feels like a hodgepodge of random rooms, some with really cool fauna as background, some with water and Maridia music, but no real identifiers other than the backgrounds and no real flow between the rooms. Hence my major complaint with the random ass heated rooms with Norfair music.

I'm rambling. I don't feel like going through that and correcting grammar or making it more legible. I'm drained.
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I do agree on enemy variety and random room placement being a problem. the enemies feel like an early FF game - there's like 8 of them and they're all recolored. it lacks personality in that sense.

that stuff doesn't bother me that much though. I find that enemies are more annoying than threatening. they're just there to slow you down. that's why later parts of the game are better - you can just avoid them with space jump/screw attack/etc.

can we talk about how utterly useless the ice beam is? I haven't used it since I got wave beam. it feels like betrayal that you would just neglect one of Metroid's signature items completely.
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I thought it was great until I got the wave beam. Freeze an enemy then missile it for a quick kill. Also, I heard you can use the powered ice shots on Metroids but for whatever reason I never tried that.

One thing I really wish in retrospect would be for the music to be a tad louder. There are some great pieces in there but due to enemies always charging you it gets drownes out. Almost more than backgrounds music defines areas in Metroid games.
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I rarely used counter at all

..... but whaaa I loved the Samus Returns ending sequence, yeah the Queen Metroid's lair itself was oddly bare, but the fight was great. Loved when you have to use the power bomb to spider ball up to the ceiling when the right wall is inflamed during one attack. Post game having the infant metroid by your side sapping things though is the best thing ever, and it's not really an escape sequence so much as it is just... the game is over, go back to your ship and leave, or stick around and explore more with your metroid baby. Ridley was the best Ridley fight, it fits plenty fine what with Ridley being after the infant Metroid at the start of Super. Yeah M2 had a good ending as it was but I don't think the remake needed to stick with it, people are always going to want extras.


Eh? Useless in platforming absolutely, but definitely useful as a weapon. Fighting Metroids as always, but ice + missile took care of anything and everything. Whenever there's enemies around that a single charge beam won't beat I go to ice + missile.
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Ice beam is literally just a Metroid killing weapon. I think there's only one point where you have to use it to reach a different section.
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CelesMyUserName posted...

Loved when you have to use the power bomb to spider ball up to the ceiling when the right wall is inflamed during one attack

Huh, didn't even think to do that.
I just morphed and went underneath her head...
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Better than me

I just prayed that I was far enough left on the screen when that attack started but otherwise just accepted it was the only move I would take damage on. Love that they included the powerbomb in the stomach being an option, and I really loved the perspective shift as you morph into the stomach.

Also, the first time I did a powerbomb jump was amazing and kind of blew my mind.

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