Poll of the Day > Super Geek Odyssey

(+) Yeah! (+)

Oh, I finally got the chance to watch the Wolverine anime recently (well, had the thing for a while, just hadn't a reason to get around to it). It was... worse than expected. I had caught some fight scene clips on Youtube between Logan and Omega Red which, to be blunt, were probably the best fight scenes in the series.

While it incorporated some characters from Wolverine's history (Mariko, Shingen, Omega Red, etc), it also pointlessly added others. Granted, I had expected some major reveal where the assassin Kikyo or whatever would turn out to be Wolverine's son Daken which would have redeemed the character. Plus it incorporated a lot of superficial anime tropes like superjumping, the double-hit stagger, which... I guess I can't get too mad about.

The story is kinda lousy with some silly twists. The only plus is that the pacing was *mostly* good (albeit the road up Madripoor felt like filler and it was a full story arc.
---

To be fair, as ridiculous as your first spoiler character is, that one has always been underutilized because...reasons.

Secondly, if I'm not mistaken, your second spoiler character is also Lady Deathstroke and that was a mess, even in the comics.

I have little input on Dakken because that was well after my time so to speak, but I was disappointed that The Old Man Logan movie credited the obvious Dakken role as X-24 or some such nonsense when it was obviously not. I'm guessing that was a rights issue.

I long for the day when Marvel gets all it's properties back for the MCU so this bullshit can end.
---

WhiskeyDisk posted...

To be fair, as ridiculous as your first spoiler character is, that one has always been underutilized because...reasons.

I wouldn't say that his usage was ridiculous since, within the confines of the story, it made sense because he was relying on AIM scientists to stabilize his condition who, in turn, were working with Shingen and was personally motivated to go after Wolverine for stealing the C-synthesizer

In general, he's a tough character to work with given his backstory and how he can be credibly portrayed to still look like a powerhouse. However, since being introduced in the 90s, he's had a good number of appearances in supporting material -- cartoons and games -- thanks to his interesting character design

WhiskeyDisk posted...

your second spoiler character

No, it's a guy.

WhiskeyDisk posted...

I'm guessing that was a rights issue.

They should have the rights to that particular character.
---

Zeus posted...

Wolverine anime

Ugh. I couldn't even get past the art-style.

WhiskeyDisk posted...

The Old Man Logan movie credited the obvious Dakken role as X-24 or some such nonsense when it was obviously not. I'm guessing that was a rights issue.

Well I wouldn't be surprised if it was originally intended to be Dakken, but it clearly was just a younger, more aggressive Wolverine. Which was disappointing, but meh. Movie was still pretty great over all, certainly better than the previous Wolverine movies.
---

Looks like Voltron season 3 is up on Netflix so I know what I'm watching this weekend.
---

My stepdad has prostate cancer. They caught it early and are in the care of presumably good doctors in the Washington area.

I have said this many times over the past couple decades, but cancer sucks. I hope he beats the damn thing.
---

Recently picked up Pokemon Ultra-Violet, which I'm playing through. The most notable immediate change is more starter variety and, after failing to catch a Dratini, I opted to start with a Houndour. If anything, it helps me appreciate the design of starter Pokemon since Houndour's early moveset (and probably later as well) isn't terribly well-rounded for a campaign.

WhiskeyDisk posted...

Looks like Voltron season 3 is up on Netflix so I know what I'm watching this weekend.

Eh, I still need to binge some NFI. I got midway through season 3 of From Dawn Till Dusk which I keep meaning to complete. I also still need to watch Doctor Strange and Strange Things. Plus there are a ton of horror films I keep wanting to get around to.

Entity13 posted...

My stepdad has prostate cancer. They caught it early and are in the care of presumably good doctors in the Washington area.

I have said this many times over the past couple decades, but cancer sucks. I hope he beats the damn thing.

Sorry to hear that.
---

I'm sorry Entity. Cancer does suck. I hope he and everyone with cancer kicks its ass.

I haven't watched Voltron or Stranger Things yet. They are on my list.

I liked Doctor Strange, but I feel the animated movie was much better. Still a good watch though.
---

WhiskeyDisk posted...

Looks like Voltron season 3 is up on Netflix so I know what I'm watching this weekend.

It's only 7 fucking episodes :(

The Wave Master posted...

I liked Doctor Strange, but I feel the animated movie was much better.

Well, having seen the toon film, that's about as damning a review as you can give.
---

knivesX2004 posted...

WhiskeyDisk posted...

Looks like Voltron season 3 is up on Netflix so I know what I'm watching this weekend.

It's only 7 fucking episodes :(

Please, last month everyone was fawning over the Castlevania series and that was only 4 episodes and THAT was a first season.
---

WhiskeyDisk posted...

knivesX2004 posted...

WhiskeyDisk posted...

Looks like Voltron season 3 is up on Netflix so I know what I'm watching this weekend.

It's only 7 fucking episodes :(

Please, last month everyone was fawning over the Castlevania series and that was only 4 episodes and THAT was a first season.

My only retort to that is they knew Voltron is popular, they were "taking a chance" on Castlevania.
Although I was reading somewhere that Voltron S4 is coming out later this year so I guess it's like a split season?

The Wave Master posted...

I liked Doctor Strange, but I feel the animated movie was much better.

Can't agree with that. Though that animated movie was one of the only really good Marvel animated films.

They haven't released anything near that level of quality since Hulk vs.
---

Metalsonic66 posted...

The Wave Master posted...

I liked Doctor Strange, but I feel the animated movie was much better.

Can't agree with that. Though that animated movie was one of the only really good Marvel animated films.

They haven't released anything near that level of quality since Hulk vs.

Arrrrggghhh.... You're killing me here, guys. First you're calling the animated Doctor Strange good and MetalSonic is saying Hulk Vs was good? *Maybe* Hulk vs Thor was okay, but Hulk vs Wolverine was all kinds of awful. More importantly, right after Hulk Vs was Planet Hulk which was probably the only outstanding film in the Marvel Features library.
---

Hey what are opinions?
---

A miserable pile of secrets. No, wait, that's man.
---

Watching Simpsons s29x19 "Looking for Mr. Goodbart" which has been such a cringefest. In general, it's weird that the show can go from an absolutely incredible episode tackling major social issues in a hilarious way to.... well, this. Even the B-Story about Homer playing a Pokemon Go knockoff has mostly been awful.

EDIT: Yep, that was pretty mediocre. Right near the end they gave some meaning to the Bart story and then tied in the B-story. The only big upside was hearing a Simpsons rendition of the Pokemon theme song.
---

I have said this many times already, but The Simpsons has gone downhill since Phil Hartman died. It's possible that the show could still have hit a noticeable decline if he was still around, but that's something we will never truly know.

Now, The Simpsons just goes on and on when it really, truly shouldn't.
---

I'm talking about the show going from a high to a low from one episode to the next, though >_> In general, the last few seasons have been great barring the occasional bad egg.

As for Hartman, I'm not sure how much involvement he had in creative. I always assumed he was just a talented actor.
---

GoT is heating up, pun intended.

Can we talk about how much Bronn rules?
---

CyborgSage00x0 posted...

GoT is heating up, pun intended.

Can we talk about how much Bronn rules?

Believe it or not, my favorite scene in that episode was Brienne and Ayra's sparring scene. The look on Brienne's face was priceless.
---

It was pretty good, albeit impractical.
---

CyborgSage00x0 posted...

Can we talk about how much Bronn rules?

Everything Bronn does is great. That argument with the money was hilarious.

WhiskeyDisk posted...

CyborgSage00x0 posted...

GoT is heating up, pun intended.

Can we talk about how much Bronn rules?

Believe it or not, my favorite scene in that episode was Brienne and Ayra's sparring scene. The look on Brienne's face was priceless.

I liked the fight, but I mostly enjoyed Little Finger's reaction when Bran says, "Chaos is a ladder." That was such an "oh shit" moment.

It was also great for marking the first real battle between Dany's and Cersei's forces, while demonstrating that the dragons can be hurt.
---

WhiskeyDisk posted...

Believe it or not, my favorite scene in that episode was Brienne and Ayra's sparring scene. The look on Brienne's face was priceless.

Agreed. I wasn't expecting there to be a huge battle as well, and that was definitely an epic scene, but I think it would have been a good episode regardless.
---

knivesX2004 posted...

My only retort to that is they knew Voltron is popular, they were "taking a chance" on Castlevania.

Considering that there have been Voltron remakes that have completely tanked before, they were arguably taking a chance on Voltron as well.

Hell, even the original Voltron only worked in the US as the 1st/Lion one. No one gave a shit about vehicle Voltron, and most people don't even KNOW about the third one.



Entity13 posted...

I have said this many times already, but The Simpsons has gone downhill since Phil Hartman died.

He apparently voiced up to Season 10, and the show had already started to slide before that.

There will still good episodes in later seasons, but I'd say the cracks started to show as early as Season 7. Even counting me as an outlier, a lot of people would agree that Season 8 or 9 was the turning point. But even people who push the turning point to the later end of the curve tend to agree that you started noticing weaker episodes popping up even in the earlier seasons.

I think the real problem is that most TV shows tire out after a certain point (and doubly so sitcoms), but animation is the only medium where you can pretty much keep those actors there forever. Live-action sitcoms arguably almost always peak somewhere between seasons 3-5 and then progressively trail off until they're eventually mercy-killed.


---

I think that newer Simpsons isn't as great as it used to be, but IMO it's still one of the better "adult" animated shows right now. Definitely a step above any of the McFarlane shows.
---

Metalsonic66 posted...

I think that newer Simpsons isn't as great as it used to be, but IMO it's still one of the better "adult" animated shows right now. Definitely a step above any of the McFarlane shows.

idk, "The Caper Chase" and "Halloween of Horror" are probably two of my favorite Simpsons episodes and both are recent eps. (My all-time fave is probably still "The Cartridge Family" with maybe "Terror Lake" coming in second)
---

Simpsons is crap like 90% of what's on TV and I wouldn't it be surprised if it lasts until Fox shuts down its network in 10-20 years.

Zeus posted...

idk, "The Caper Chase" and "Halloween of Horror" are probably two of my favorite Simpsons episodes and both are recent eps. (My all-time fave is probably still "The Cartridge Family" with maybe "Terror Lake" coming in second)

Like I said, I do think it's still a good show, even if the high points aren't quite as high as they used to be. There are too many people online who can't have a "reasonable" opinion and have to jump to the absolute extreme of "OMG NEW SIMPSONS SUX LOLOL"
---

Metalsonic66 posted...

I think that newer Simpsons isn't as great as it used to be, but IMO it's still one of the better "adult" animated shows right now. Definitely a step above any of the McFarlane shows.

That's not really saying much, though, because most of the MacFarlane shows fall into exactly the same category as The Simpsons - ie, shows that were good once but which have run too long and thus burned out/run out of ideas.

I'd easily take the first five seasons or so of Family Guy over the last 20 seasons of The Simpsons without hesitation.

South Park sort of falls into this as well - it's another show that has kind of fallen off in later years, going from a must-watch show to a show which was mostly strong, to a show that has a lot of bland episodes but still manages to push out a couple brilliant episodes per season.

And there are definitely better shows (or at least shows that were worthwhile early on as well, that might be weaker now *cough*Archer*cough*). There really hasn't been a time when The Simpsons was the pinnacle of "adult" animation for more than 20 years now.


---

Indeed, I'm not denying the occasional good episode of The Simpsons, or any other show that's gone honestly longer than it should have, but overall the quality of the show not is nowhere near what it was before the tenth or so season.

It might be argued that the decline was sooner than that, but I like to argue that the creators simply ran into a snag as to what newer ideas did or didn't work. However, most, if not all, of the early season charm was still there.

That's why I argue that Phil Hartman was such a big part of that. He was meant to have a one-off appearance nearly halfway into season 2, but was loved so much by the the show's creative staff that they wrote more and more for him, even having him replace the actor on a pre-existing character. Then, when he was gone after episode of season 10, it took a lot out of the show. Plans they had for him still? Gone. His charismatic charm or delivery of every joke given to him? Now in the past. He didn't write for the show, but at times the show wrote for him even though he didn't play a main character (rather than a recurring one or two).

Again, the show might have had its moments--it's scenes or occasional good episode--but it lost something so vital to its success in the early seasons when the man was taken before his time.

But hey, you know; opinions.
---

Entity13 posted...

Then, when he was gone after episode of season 10, it took a lot out of the show.

Yeah, but the problem there is, if the show was already starting to stumble before that, it's hard to point to him being gone as the cause of the problems, as opposed to a catalyst that merely helped accelerate problems which already existed and were eventually going to become an issue whether he was there or not.

I loved Phil Hartman (he was like 90% of the reason I used to watch NewsRadio), but I don't think even he could have salvaged more than an extra good season or two out of the show even if they went all-in on him (which they probably weren't going to do). And I can't even point to his death as the point the show started going downhill, because I was already complaining about the show feeling like it was starting to nosedive while he was still alive.


---

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Entity13 posted...

Then, when he was gone after episode of season 10, it took a lot out of the show.

Yeah, but the problem there is, if the show was already starting to stumble before that, it's hard to point to him being gone as the cause of the problems, as opposed to a catalyst that merely helped accelerate problems which already existed and were eventually going to become an issue whether he was there or not.

I loved Phil Hartman (he was like 90% of the reason I used to watch NewsRadio), but I don't think even he could have salvaged more than an extra good season or two out of the show even if they went all-in on him (which they probably weren't going to do). And I can't even point to his death as the point the show started going downhill, because I was already complaining about the show feeling like it was starting to nosedive while he was still alive.

See, there's the difference in our opinions. You see there being problems before that, and I see only a recoverable issue beforehand. It's possible what I've been saying all this time can be construed as "His loss is THE cause," but it's more like what I'm trying to say is seasons 8 and 9 were a young bicycling athlete getting hit by a car and still being able to recover with ease, Summer of '98 being when that bicyclist lost a leg to another incident (and we don't see their last race's recording until a few months later), and what we have now is that athlete trying to stay relevant with a prosthetic leg that isn't anywhere as effective for riding as the original leg used to be.

Whatever minor issues The Simpsons had before that point were just that: minor. The creators could have addressed them and moved on for a few more really strong years in the show's teens, instead of what we got.

Imagine having something small come along that needs to be addressed, but it requires an optimal frame of mind. Then imagine something else, something major coming along and completely removing you from the capacity to address that little bump. Then, when you finally do get around to that once-minuscule thing, it's now grown to seemingly unfair proportions.

That's more in line with how I'm seeing it.
---

If only Venture Bros wasn't plagued by such delays.
---

Entity13 posted...

Whatever minor issues The Simpsons had before that point were just that: minor. The creators could have addressed them and moved on for a few more really strong years in the show's teens, instead of what we got.

But the minor issues before that were minor symptoms of the underlying causes, and the underlying causes weren't themselves minor. And there's absolutely no evidence that the creators had any ability to right ANY of them, with or without Hartman's death as a factor.

To modify your metaphor, it's as if the young bicycling athlete got hit by a car in the first place because his bike chain was starting to wear out, and was skipping out of gear more and more frequently as he rode. And even if he hadn't later lost a limb, that chain was still going to keep getting worse and worse and popping out of place until the whole bike locked up.

The odds of them being able to pull out of that particular nosedive and go back to producing episodes at the same level of quality (or a superior level of quality) are minuscule (it's worth noting here that almost NO long-running show that dips in quality EVER manages to recover from it), especially not long-term. While Hartman's death might have accelerated those problems, they were still problems regardless, they were never going to be solved, and they still would have resulted in the show getting weaker and weaker over time. At best, we might be talking about a parallel universe where Hartman lived and the point where most people agree the show went to shit was actually season 11 instead of season 9.

Also in that universe, Howard Dean is currently President of the North American Freestate. It's kind of a weird place.

Honestly, the only show I can think of that has ever really recovered from a major dip in quality in later seasons (ie, one caused more by burnout and changing creative teams rather than early growing pains or easily fixable network-related issues) is Doctor Who, but that's also an extremely unique case. The Simpsons really couldn't have Homer regenerate into someone else and take off for deep space to revitalize the show.

Granted, this may be a case where your rampant idealism thinks that they could have solved any problem if circumstances hadn't prevented them while my cynical eye thinks they were screwed regardless, but I don't see HOW they could have fixed (let alone reversed) most of the issues they were suffering from, and which ultimately led to the deterioration of the show, no matter what happened with Hartman.



Metalsonic66 posted...

If only Venture Bros wasn't plagued by such delays.

Even that's a show that feels like it's stayed past its welcome (and I say that as someone who loves the fuck out of that show).

A lot of people have theorized that's part of why it takes them so long to finish a season now - they don't have the passion for it that they used to, and they're not making a ton of money off it (a la The Simpsons), so they don't really have the motivation to push themselves to finish it, especially when Adult Swim's attitude seems to be to ignore them until they finish it, then show whatever episodes they eventually give them.

Adult Swim in general is a good example of how even animation can suffer from the "been on too long" curse. Aqua Teen Hunger Force definitely dropped off at a certain point, Sealab's last season was starting to suffer even before Harry Goz died, Harvey Birdman was brilliant but kind of lost focus after season 2, and so on. The best Adult Swim shows all burned out fairly quickly, while the worst were never worth watching in the first place.


---

ParanoidObsessive posted...

I'd easily take the first five seasons or so of Family Guy over the last 20 seasons of The Simpsons without hesitation.

I've never had greater cause to doubt your sanity.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

South Park sort of falls into this as well - it's another show that has kind of fallen off in later years, going from a must-watch show to a show which was mostly strong, to a show that has a lot of bland episodes but still manages to push out a couple brilliant episodes per season.

I'm not sure it was ever "must-watch" although the SJW season was pretty good and the first season where I actually stuck to following the show.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Yeah, but the problem there is, if the show was already starting to stumble before that, it's hard to point to him being gone as the cause of the problems, as opposed to a catalyst that merely helped accelerate problems which already existed and were eventually going to become an issue whether he was there or not.

Trading Lionel Hutz for Gil was an all-around low point, though.

Metalsonic66 posted...

If only Venture Bros wasn't plagued by such delays.

Never been a huge fan.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Also in that universe, Howard Dean is currently President of the North American Freestate. It's kind of a weird place.

I only have one thing to say to that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j6xm7e5bJo
---

ParanoidObsessive posted...

To modify your metaphor, it's as if the young bicycling athlete got hit by a car in the first place because his bike chain was starting to wear out, and was skipping out of gear more and more frequently as he rode. And even if he hadn't later lost a limb, that chain was still going to keep getting worse and worse and popping out of place until the whole bike locked up.

As a non-athletic bicyclist, and as a writer, I can tell you where this argument falls apart with more ease than peddling a bike in any decent condition. Someone who lets the chain go for so long isn't a great rider, because, as anyone with half a brain that rides a bike might be able to tell you, there gets to be a point when you can identify when a chain is no longer working as intended. Therefore, any experienced or developed cyclist could say "Hey, maybe I should clean and lube up the chain, or if that's not enough maybe I should replace the chain BEFORE it causes any major issues down the line."

Any competent writer or developer should be able to spot when a problem arises and should be able to handle it as long as they're not working for a company demands a separate, more harmful approach to the thing you're making. See also: Blizzard and Warcrack ever since Activision acquired that company. Activision's WoW has been the real "WoW Killer," even though it's been a longer death than the last few Doctors combined.

Hell, on the flipside, look at Doctor Who. From Tom Baker's final years as Fourth, to the end of the classic series, the show took on many bad writers. Then from Eleventh's to Twelfth's runs, we had the showrunner from even the Valeyard's worst nightmares, who honestly COULD write well if writing underneath someone else's direction. As a showrunner, look at the damage done, which he refused to see as anything short of brilliant.

Back to The Simpsons, they had capable writers who spent the first season figuring the show out. They figured out what worked and what didn't, and they ran with a great thing for so many years until that great thing started getting tired and they went to try newer things. The newer things were hit and miss, but they were still trying. They were still utilizing what good assets they had.

Hartman was a huge asset to the quality of the show. While they sought out new things to run with, they lost him.

Mind you, the show changed writers and showrunners several times, even during the first ten years. Even from seasons two through eight no less than four times. The showrunners at the end of season eight feared they might break the show--remember, a bad cyclist cares nothing about a bad chain and does not seek to fix or replace it--so the new one from season nine to a few years later aimed to improve matters rather than break them. That was Scully, who is often blamed for the show's decline. A few years later, an older showrunner reclaimed the reins for a while, but had difficulty with fresh ideas for the show.

Idealism, PO? It's an understanding of how things can work, and often times why they don't. When you lose the competence to address an issue, or if you lose a major asset that cannot be replaced, then you have a real problem. When you hit a speed bump a little too hard? That's unfortunate, but it's not the death of you, typically.
---

Entity13 posted...

Someone who lets the chain go for so long isn't a great rider, because, as anyone with half a brain that rides a bike might be able to tell you, there gets to be a point when you can identify when a chain is no longer working as intended. Therefore, any experienced or developed cyclist could say "Hey, maybe I should clean and lube up the chain, or if that's not enough maybe I should replace the chain BEFORE it causes any major issues down the line."

While all of that is true, the problem remains that it assumes the cyclist is competent enough to fix the problem, or is capable of doing so.

To drop out of metaphor, one might even say that "Someone who lets behind the scenes problems continue to grow aren't a great show producer/writer/showrunner/etc, because there gets to be a point when you can identify when a show is no longer working as intended... therefore, any skilled show creator could say "Hey, maybe I should fix these issues BEFORE they cause any major issues down the line."

But the people working on The Simpsons DIDN'T do that... which would argue that they perhaps WEREN'T capable or skilled enough to notice that their metaphorical chain was becoming a problem.



Entity13 posted...

Hell, on the flipside, look at Doctor Who.

But like I already said, not only is that an extremely unusual example, and one that doesn't really translate all that well to other shows, it might actually be unique in its ability to transcend bad periods by essentially reinventing itself on every level.

It basically has a built-in mechanism that allows it to jettison the entirety of its staff and cast and go off in entirely different directions to "reset" and refresh itself. Almost no other show in the history of entertainment has that option.

The closest we really come is when dealing with a given franchise rebooting - so, say, Tim Burton's take on Batman doesn't prevent Nolan's alternate take on Batman, or the DCAU version of Batman, or the Arkham games version of Batman, and so on. But those don't exist within the confines of a single show.



Entity13 posted...

Back to The Simpsons, they had capable writers who spent the first season figuring the show out. They figured out what worked and what didn't, and they ran with a great thing for so many years until that great thing started getting tired and they went to try newer things.

But you've just described the beginnings of nearly every long-running show that was once good but later stumbled and fell, including all of the ones that were ultimately unable to right their own descent and merely continued on their downward course until eventual cancellation (or eternal purgatory of endless crapitude).

Having a skilled team capable of getting a good show off the ground to start with doesn't guarantee those same people (or their replacements) will be capable of maintaining that course, or more importantly, of finding a way to keep the boat afloat once it starts to sink.

There's nothing to suggest they could have salvaged things with Hartman still around, and plenty of reasons to assume they probably couldn't have.



Entity13 posted...

Hartman was a huge asset to the quality of the show. While they sought out new things to run with, they lost him.

Yeah, but there's no guarantee that they would have found anything for him to do that would somehow miraculously solve every problem and make every episode better regardless of whether or not they were trying to.

And arguably, he might not even have been that great an asset regardless, considering they were already considering spinning him off into a separate show.


---

Entity13 posted...

Idealism, PO? It's an understanding of how things can work, and often times why they don't.

Arguably, it's the exact opposite of that. Idealism tends to be a direct denial of the way things are in favor of the way people wish they were/think they should be.

Idealism is the person demanding that the world be fair, while the cynic is the person saying "Of COURSE the world isn't fair. It never was, and likely never will be."

Granted, we can all say that we need idealists around to push the envelope and try to make the world a better place, because even if they fail 999 times but succeed once that's still incremental advancement, but that doesn't really change the 999 times they crash and burn, or alter the fact that their ideals don't necessarily map to the current situation (or the actual historical one, if we're talking about past events).

In this scenario, I'm saying you're the idealist because you're the one saying "They absolutely SHOULD have been able to fix things, but didn't!", while I'm the one saying "Maybe no one could have fixed those things. Maybe some things can't be fixed, no matter how hard we try, or how hard we wish they could."

I've never seen any evidence that anyone involved was capable of righting the ship at the point when Hartman died (and it's entirely possible that showrunners or producers who COULD have fixed those problems if they'd caught them earlier were no longer involved with the show by that point), or that they were even really trying to do in any serious fashion at the point where his death closed a number of doors. As awesome as he was, and however great his characters might have been, they were never so integral to the show that simply switching the focus to him would suddenly have changed everything.

More likely, like most shows of this nature, it's much easier for us looking back in hindsight to point out what the problems were and where they started, but much harder for them, in the moment, to see them. And by the time they did realize the problems were there, they might have passed a point beyond which those problems could have been realistically addressed in any significant way even if they HAD managed to come up with the most brilliant solution imaginable.

Like it or not, at least part of the problem with The Simpsons was always going to be fatigue, and outgrowing the era in which it was born, which were factors they'd never really be able to change in any major way.


---

ParanoidObsessive posted...

But the people working on The Simpsons DIDN'T do that... which would argue that they perhaps WEREN'T capable or skilled enough to notice that their metaphorical chain was becoming a problem.

Except they did. re-read what I said.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

But you've just described the beginnings of nearly every long-running show

As a build-up to a point made later. Again, re-read what I said.

You'll notice the answer to both in the same paragraph.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

There's nothing to suggest they could have salvaged things with Hartman still around, and plenty of reasons to assume they probably couldn't have.

Examples, PO. Show me proof that they were so incompetent, because that sounds like a damning accusation against the writers and showrunners, whilst ignoring what I stated about them identifying an issue before it got too bad, and trying to fix it.

Sometimes, the best of us writers can only adjust so much or do so well when we lose something or someone so vital. Another example is when Nolan's Batman trilogy plummeted in quality after Heath Ledger died. Nolan had so many plans for his Joker for the third film, and instead had to inject a dozen other things. We all saw how that mess went.

Seasons ten and onward of The Simpsons were nowhere as much of a dip in quality as "Dark Knight Rises." The writers and showrunners did identify a small issue and try to address it. Their success was limited.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

And arguably, he might not even have been that great an asset regardless, considering they were already considering spinning him off into a separate show.

Oh really, now? And where's your source on this? Also, that sounds like the opposite being not being a big asset if he was good enough to carry a spinoff or a separate show entirely (either way). That sounds to me like he was valued so greatly, that the idea crossed their minds, only for it to go nowhere when he was lost.
---

I started Viltron: Legendary Defender this week, and it's been pretty good.

I'm just enjoying the Saturday morning cartoon vibe of the show, and the fun they are having with the series.

I miss Saturday morning cartoons.

Cartoon Network during the day time isn't gettibg it done. It feels like 12 hours of Teen Titans Go. Which is fine for a few minutes, but not al day.

I guess I'm just old. Anyone else miss Saturday morning cartoons?
---

ParanoidObsessive posted...

n this scenario, I'm saying you're the idealist because you're the one saying "They absolutely SHOULD have been able to fix things, but didn't!", while I'm the one saying "Maybe no one could have fixed those things. Maybe some things can't be fixed, no matter how hard we try, or how hard we wish they could."

No, I'm saying they had the capacity to fix things to an extent, tried to do so, and were dealt a heavy blow that demolished their plans.
---

The Wave Master posted...

I started Viltron: Legendary Defender this week, and it's been pretty good.

I'm just enjoying the Saturday morning cartoon vibe of the show, and the fun they are having with the series.

I miss Saturday morning cartoons.

Cartoon Network during the day time isn't gettibg it done. It feels like 12 hours of Teen Titans Go. Which is fine for a few minutes, but not al day.

I guess I'm just old. Anyone else miss Saturday morning cartoons?

I love that the new Voltron series takes something of a fresh take on the original while still being true to the source material. Although I haven't finished season 3 yet, I've been quite happy with what I've seen up to now.
---

ParanoidObsessive posted...

It basically has a built-in mechanism that allows it to jettison the entirety of its staff and cast and go off in entirely different directions to "reset" and refresh itself. Almost no other show in the history of entertainment has that option.

The closest we really come is when dealing with a given franchise rebooting - so, say, Tim Burton's take on Batman doesn't prevent Nolan's alternate take on Batman, or the DCAU version of Batman, or the Arkham games version of Batman, and so on. But those don't exist within the confines of a single show.

American Horror Story is a good example, since each season is self-contained. Slasher will be the same. Granted, they might be more extreme examples since the surrounding continuity resets as well.
---

I'm getting very close to finishing Tales of Besperia. Maybe two three dungeons away.

I'm thinking of downloading Batman:The Telltale Series, but I don't know if it's any good.

I have Just Cause 3 free off psn, and I have Horizon Zero Dawn as well.

What should play next?
---

You know, I'm a little embarrassed to not realize everything Idina Menzel has been involved in given that, due to the green makeup in Wicked, I didn't connect her with her role on Glee. And, because I still haven't watched Frozen other than a very short clip here or there, I didn't realize she voiced Elsa.
---

She definitely wasn't in my favorite version of it, but ever since I discovered she did it my brain immediately connects her to this almost reflexively whenever she comes up in conversation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lddMjq_bgg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PHDVsIap18


---

I've actually finished up 4-5 Wii U games, and 2 DS (not even 3DS) games that have been lingering this year. I'm making a concentrated effort to try and clear my backlog before I indulge in new games...or I said to myself, before I went and bought Arms and Splatoon 2.

On Boyonetta 2 now, just did Citizens of Earth.
---

With great trepidation and horror, I realize that I've now missed my shot at a Zapdos in Pokemon Go. Meh, guess I could have joined Facebook groups and drove across all of creation for it, but...
---

I didn't even realize that a lot of people still played or cared about Pokemon Go. At least I didn't until the giant Pokemon Go meet up in Chicago that went horribly wrong.

I'm not sure what people were thinking. Of course it would be a disaster

A small area, thousands of phones, limited bandwidth, limited facilities, equals a recipe for disaster to me.

Sorry you missed the Legendary Pokemon.
---