Board 8 > Rate the Ace Attorney case: Turnabout Succession (4-4)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Rules:

1. Rate each case on a scale from 1 to 10 with 1 being the lowest and 10 being the highest. Anything above 10 gets rounded down to a 10, and anything below a 1 gets rounded up to a 1.
2. Anything beyond one decimal point will be rounded accordingly: .04 and below will be rounded down, .05 and up will be rounded up.
3. You may grade on any criteria you like.
4. You can rate cases from previous topics if you miss a topic.

Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PiEuURt1qf19VoYzcFCU1EFa8uqs2teJiVcip7JmjDw/edit?usp=sharing

Previous Results:

Bridge to the Turnabout (3-5) - 9.8 (37 votes)
Farewell, My Turnabout (2-4) - 9.7 (30 votes)
Turnabout Goodbyes (1-4) - 9.2 (32 votes)
Turnabout Beginnings (3-4) - 8.4 (26 votes)
Rise from the Ashes (1-5) - 8.2 (28 votes)
The Stolen Turnabout (3-2) - 8.2 (24 votes)
Turnabout Samurai (1-3) - 7.4 (29 votes)
Turnabout Memories (3-1) - 7.4 (30 votes)
Turnabout Trump (4-1) - 6.9 (25 votes)
Recipe for Turnabout (3-3) - 6.6 (27 votes)
Reunion, and Turnabout (2-2) - 6.5 (25 votes)
Turnabout Sisters (1-2) - 5.7 (25 votes)
The First Turnabout (1-1) - 4.9 (25 votes)
Turnabout Corner (4-2) - 4.0 (25 votes)
Turnabout Big Top (2-3) - 3.7 (25 votes)
The Lost Turnabout (2-1) - 3.3 (27 votes)
Turnabout Serenade (4-3) - 2.7 (24 votes)

There were a few defenders here, but most people did not like this case at all. We got a new bottom case. We'll see how long it'll be there.

Summary:

Past and present collide in AJ's final case, as Apollo tries to save a young artist from a secret of seven years ago--and takes on the court system itself to do it. Phoenix's legacy is passed on in this surreal, hair-raising finale.

Main Characters: Apollo Justice, Trucy Wright, Phoenix Wright, Ema Skye, Klavier Gavin, The Judge, Dick Gumshoe, Kristoph Gavin
Other Characters: Vera Misham, Spark Brushel, Drew Misham, Valant Gramarye, Zak Gramarye, Magnifi Gramarye, Thalassa Gramarye, Olga Orly, Mike Meekins, Lamiroir

My Rating: 1/10. There's a lot I like about this case. The Mason System is easily the most interesting part of AJ. Kristoph is a fantastic culprit and the murder here is really neat. I even like some parts of 4-0 (the flashback case), like confronting Valant. But man, there is so much I hate. Usually my 1/10s are cases that bored me or cases I dislike. If you take out the stuff I hate, I'd probably give this more like a 6/10. But man, when it sucks, it suuuuuucks. Just to go over a few things I hate: Everyone in 4-0 is written poorly and out-of-character with Phoenix and Gumshoe getting the worst of it, Apollo's barely involved in the case, Trial 2 is basically a long cutscene where you do nothing but point out Kristoph's demon hand, Klavier/Kristoph should be interesting but is not interesting in the slightest, literally everything about Zak and Magnifi, and the Lamiroir twist feels pointless and has still yet to pay off. Oh, and Brushel's armpit perceive.

6

Another 1/10 for me. I do prefer it to 4-3 but there's some awful character moments here I just can't really overlook. Time traveling evidence also makes no sense.

1

6.5

It's fine!

1.

Fuck this case. If I could give it any lower I would just because Zak is that awful. Hell, so is Magnifi.

For the record, even if the rest of the case was brilliant (it is not), the 4-0 segment is like a -99/10 modifier.

1/10

I thought about giving it an extra point for some good characters or some interesting attempts at doing a mystery but naaaaah fuck it. This case nearly killed the franchise for me and still at best set the franchise back. It sucks so bad. I don't even feel like going over how bad the writing and plot is, it's been done.

5/10

Probably the toughest case in the series to rate for me. I really like the Mason System, and the first trial day is quite good (yes, I like Brushel and his one sweaty armpit). The Mishams are interesting characters, and Valant is good.

4-0, however, is an utter abomination. It's a slap in the face of the fanbase, and Phoenix's downfall is totally unearned. The last trial day is easily the worst climax to an epic case in the series. It's totally unremarkable aside from Kristoph's devil hand and breakdown, and Phoenix rigging the jury. Apollo might as well not even be there.

2.3/10

There's a lot of intrigue to various aspects of the case, but they ultimately end up going nowhere and/or resolving themselves in an extremely unsatisfying way. Most of the cast is just despicable, and the mystery behind Magnifi's death sucks ass.

Hot take 1: I like Brushel. But everyone else that ever shows up at any point in 4-4 is awful. Hot take 2: Yeah, that includes Vera. I don't like Vera as a character. Even Phoenix is at his absolute worst. Everything he does goes against everything else the series stands for.

Spark Brushel shouldn't be the best character in a case. That's just criminal.

7.5/10. Its enjoyable. It should be a lot bigger as a final case and feels a bit unfinished, but there are some great moments throughout and a strong mystery. The first day is as good as any in the series.

7/10

The ending was disappointing and kinda ruined everything my first time playing this game. When I replayed it, though, I was able to put more weight into the rest of the case, which I thought was pretty good!

7/10

I generally liked the characters here.

7

First of all, Brushel's design and mannerisms makes me think he should be the subject of one of those WarioWare minigames where you have to tickle some guy's nose 20 times in two seconds to get him to sneeze. He makes me feel so uncomfortable and I love it.

I waffled a bit on what verdict to give this trial. I think it suffers from a game named after Apollo Justice. Phoenix and Klavier practically remove the titular character from the game, as they have more stakes in the trial. I'm kind of able to ignore this in hindsight, but I remember it being disappointed when this was the latest entry in the franchise.

In addition to Brushel, I like the new characters/the new developments to past characters. Vera is a character I can relate to. Social situations make me uncomfortable, but its easier for me to express myself through my special interests and artwork. Kristoph continues to be great/awful. Those black psyche-locks were positively chilling and so was his breakdown. I didn't really like the Perceive section of his final testimony, but besides that ... I even like the Gramayres with all their drama. Is this kind of derivative of Turnabout Big Top? Maybe, but idc. Speaking of, when Phoenix has PTSD over Valiant's "bust" I laughed probably the hardest during this game.

But when it comes to the bad - I don't like most of 4-0 all too much. Gumshoe was especially mean (like why bro you literally risked your life for Phoenix and/or Maya like four times at this point....) and it kind of .... bugs me how quick it almost seemed to go by? Phoenix's acceptance of the forged evidence just seems so wild after all we've been through.

The Mason system is cool from a gameplay standpoint, but it really requires suspension of disbelief to really grasp it in universe. Imagine carrying a piece of evidence for seven years in your pocket.... Imagine presenting a piece of evidence from the modern day to a character in the past .... But whatever, I managed to overlook a lot of stupid things because this series is a little stupid!

I also find the Apollo backstory/plot twist unnecessary. It almost feels like they forgot to make him relevant and then tried to course correct last minute ... Phoenix saying in the ending that he will do his best to raise both Apollo and Trucy almost .... almost makes up for it.

I think because I'm able to think on the bright side even with stuff I don't like is why I'm able to rank this so high. Thank you Wesley Stickler for not showing up for this one.

4/10

thematically interesting and tonally unnerving but pretty bad

3

This would have also gotten a 1 from me if there were not a few individual moments or concepts that I enjoyed or was intrigued by respectively. Apollo feeling so irrelevant in his own game, especially in this final case, and being effectively used as a pawn throughout sucks. Thank goodness DD and SOJ existed to give him something. People have already mentioned the issues with the writing for certain characters so I won't regurgitate it, and the MASON system feels like a chore to play through. I don't hate Spark Brushel as much as I used to, but I hated his Perceive tell. There are a lot of characters that could have been (or WERE) cool heading into this case, yet Zak, Kristoph and even Klavier might have become some of my least favorite characters in the series that weren't bit characters for one case. Oh, and Hobonix rigging the trial to get his desired result. There's a reason this franchise almost died and that some people never played past this point in the series, and this game is one of two big reasons for it.

I will admit that the jurist system reveal to Kristoph and his breakdown on its own is awesome and his breakdown is one of my favorites in the entire series.

2 - the mason section is unbelievably good, but i have a strong visceral dislike for the case nonetheless.

1/10

It's 4-0 in particular that really seals up the minimum ranking for me. It's fucking baffling that they have to straight up just have Klavier say you can't present the non-forged evidence and that's that. Phoenix can't even be like, "So here's this evidence that some little girl just gave me out of nowhere. Please put it under the highest forensic scrutiny possible." He just goes along with it as if he obtained that evidence completely normally.

Also both AAI games take place before 4-0 so canonically this is the last time we have seen Gumshoe. What a fucking waste.

As for the rest of 4-4 I don't have much to add that hasn't been said. It would probably be more like a 4 for me though.

Also it's time to post this in case anyone hasn't seen it, but parody aside it really does put into perspective how bafflingly batshit Zak really is:

Edit: It's multiple panels and the embed is terrible, so best to actually open it in a new tab.

https://imgur.com/a/8QVtO

For anyone who gives Athena a hard time for struggling through 6-4 despite being thrown into it knowing nothing about the case, just tell them that when that happened to Phoenix, he lost his badge.

2/10

Not very good.

Remember how in AA1 von Karma presented false evidence, and he got away with a single penalty that didn't affect his case in the slightest?

Legendary defense attorney Phoenix Wright does it once and gets disbarred immediately without recourse.

The way Dual Destinies handles this plot point is hilarious. They basically have to tiptoe around it because it sounds dumber the longer you think, and because Apollo Justice put Phoenix in a role without considering the world it had built up until that point. Edgeworth shows up and goes 'eeey sorry I couldn't help you out back then', and it's like, why Edgeworth? Why couldn't you or anyone else help Phoenix out back then? Why couldn't Phoenix help Phoenix out back then?

KamikazePotato posted...

Remember how in AA1 von Karma presented false evidence, and he got away with a single penalty that didn't affect his case in the slightest?

And still won the case! Zak was going to get instantly declared guilty because the only conclusion for why a defense attorney would use forged evidence is because his client is guilty.

KamikazePotato posted...

The way Dual Destinies handles this plot point is hilarious. They basically have to tiptoe around it because it sounds dumber the longer you think, and because Apollo Justice put Phoenix in a role without considering the world it had built up until that point. Edgeworth shows up and goes 'eeey sorry I couldn't help you out back then', and it's like, why Edgeworth? Why couldn't you or anyone else help Phoenix out back then? Why couldn't Phoenix help Phoenix out back then?

Yeah, it's just wild how it happens. They make Maya go away with absolutely zero explanation despite showing her and Phoenix together merely days before 4-0 in AAI1 and AAI2. Like, did she take off for Khura'in the day before 4-0? It's weird how everyone, including Phoenix, just kinda resigns themselves to "well there's nothing we can do" for seven years.

KamikazePotato posted...

Edgeworth shows up and goes 'eeey sorry I couldn't help you out back then', and it's like, why Edgeworth? Why couldn't you or anyone else help Phoenix out back then?

"I'm sorry Phoenix but it was a really crazy couple of weeks before that happened and I needed a good 7 years to decompress."

Real talk though, the only reason for the massive time gap in this game is Trucy. Even though 7 years isn't enough time to fool us into thinking it's his biological daughter, they needed some time gap to give it an air of mystery and forge a believable bond between her and Phoenix.

It's crazy that, even by the end of Spirit of Justice, Phoenix Wright has spent his career disbarred longer than practicing.

it's amazing Edgeworth hasn't died from stress when he's busting international crime rings every week

LeonhartFour posted...

it's amazing Edgeworth hasn't died of stress when he's busting international crime rings every week

Has enough clout to change world politics.

Does not have enough clout to point out that banning an accomplished attorney for one accidental mistake is maybe a bit unreasonable.

1

I have to wonder if the writers / location designers knew just how much of a scumbag they had made Zak when they decided to put a portrait memorializing him in the Wright Anything Agency. I get that he's Trucy's father, but Trucy's family is awful

He comes across rather poorly in 4-1, but I don't know what impression they wanted us to have of him after 4-4.

Me neither, but it is very hard to forgive someone that wanted to ruin the career of the man that took his daughter in so badly that he assaulted his accomplice when the plan failed.

KamikazePotato posted...

Remember how in AA1 von Karma presented false evidence, and he got away with a single penalty that didn't affect his case in the slightest?

Well to be fair, it's not AS unbelievable as it could be considering Ace Attorney is basically like...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/1/157ac483.jpg

Interesting to read the comments here; every second rating is essentially "this case is mostly pretty good but I still hate it, 1/10". That's actually closer to my opinion than I would have expected - I guess I just don't hate it!

Everyone's points about the 4.0 backstory being ludicrously harsh on Phoenix is true, and that is a genuine black mark on the case. But I never really agreed that everyone is "out of character" there, especially given that what we see is based on one man's recollections seven years on.

And the case itself is great! There's a real ominous atmosphere to it that almost recalls 2-4, and the supporting cast (The Mishams and Valant particularly) is one of the best in the series. There are definitely flaws with the writing in this part too - that painting cliffhanger is very lamely resolved, Zak is famously ridiculous, and taking down Christoph is less impactful than it should be considering we caught him already (though this isn't intrinsically a bad idea - Dahlia in 3-5 is conceptually the same, and that's great).

But I have been mostly grading these cases on the way they make me feel, and those minor details don't hold this back much. Unless you hold the backstory against 4-4 (which clearly many of you do), I really don't see how this is significantly worse than the other main game final cases. For me, 4-4 is one of the most ambitious, atmospheric and straight up interesting cases in the series. It's a shame that they slightly botched the execution, but this doesn't feel out of place among the other epic cases for me, and that's a very high compliment.

8/10

I mean, 4-4 is ambitious, but I don't necessarily like what it's trying to achieve and its own messaging is either intentionally hypocritical (unlikely) or lacking self-awareness. Phoenix's logic for trying to install the Jurist System is essentially, "The system is rigged against us," while simultaneously rigging the jury in his favor.

although I do like your idea that 4-0 is so weirdly told because it's like Phoenix is telling the jurists what happened while doing the voices and flanderizing the characters himself

"and then Gumshoe was like 'hey pal I'm taking you down today!' LOL"

More thoughts, after rrading the thread closely: I had completely forgotten about Phoenix rigging the jury, that's a hilarious detail. He does way more crooked shit in this game than he does in 4-0! That's a legit criticism of the game/case, maybe I just take these games a bit less seriously than you guys!

I also kind of wish that they'd kept the jurist system going forward in the series, especially since GAA showed that sort of thing can work. I don't actually think AJ is all that good, but I also think DD essentially pretending it doesn't exist was pretty lame.

LeonhartFour posted...

although I do like your idea that 4-0 is so weirdly told because it's like Phoenix is telling the jurists what happened while doing the voices and flanderizing the characters himself

"and then Gumshoe was like 'hey pal I'm taking you down today!' LOL"

I mean, yeah, pretty much! Phoenix in this game is a shady dude who shouldn't be trusted to reliably narrate anything, and is clearly willing to do all manner of dodgy shit to get the jury on side. The game admittedly gets muddled with its messaging here - you're clearly supposed to think nailing Kristoph is a triumph, despite all this - but that's a separate problem with the game as a whole not being able to fully reconcile Hobonix from Phoenix's past.

4-0 feeling like a weird dream where everyone is an antagonistic cartoon has always made complete sense to me.

Giggsalot posted...

4-0 feeling like a weird dream where everyone is an antagonistic cartoon has always made complete sense to me.

I'm going to be honest and say this sounds like an excuse to explain bad writing. I've played games with intentionally misleading/flanderized flashbacks. 4-0 wasn't that.

Is this case ambitious? I honestly think it's aiming pretty low. Ambitious is never a word I would have used. 3-5 is ambitious.

1/10

The second court day is the most uninteresting court day in the series since 1-1, and 1-1 at least has being the first case in the series going for it, and Cinder Block.

And honestly the Lamiroir stuff is the actual worst part of this case regarding the entire Gramarye (and Wright) family, not the 4-0 stuff.

Paratroopa1 posted...

Is this case ambitious? I honestly think it's aiming pretty low. Ambitious is never a word I would have used. 3-5 is ambitious.

Theoretically it was aiming to change one of the status quos of the series (the judge is sole arbiter of the trial)

I suppose practically speaking, even if they had maintained the Jurist System, it wouldn't have changed that much unless you started doing the silly thing GAA did and have them all in the room arbitrarily casting votes whenever they feel like it

maybe Takumi wrote GAA because he wanted everyone to know what his vision for the Jurist System beyond AJ actually was

2

WarThaNemesis2 posted...

And honestly the Lamiroir stuff is the actual worst part of this case regarding the entire Gramarye (and Wright) family

Yep, they never explain how she ended up overseas. The only explanation I can think of is that Magnifi knew she survived but got rid of her to control Valant and Zak.

Alakazoooooomg!

Believe me, any comic relief I provide is entirely unintentional.

4

I'll let this one last an extra day.

So are you doing DD or AAI1 next?

1.5

Beyond awful. 0.5 because the Mishams and Brushel are fine, and Drew Studio is one of the soundtrack's best.

Leonhart4 posted...

So are you doing DD or AAI1 next?

I'll do US release date order with AAI2 being right after AAI1. So...

Investigations 1
Investigations 2
Dual Destinies
Layton vs Wright
Spirit of Justice
Great 1
Great 2

7

("Attorney Utterly Confused", end quote.)