Current Events > Time Magazine: Biden support from Arab Americans plummets

(+) Yeah! (+)

hockeybub89 posted...

Israel is being run by an evil government. They are the bad guys. Should we give every despotic government billions in aid because it's our duty to keep things peaceful? What is the difference between funding Israel and funding Russia?

Well I mean considering Russia is funding Hamas I'd consider those two things to be complete opposites.

It's more like what's the difference between Not Funding Ukraine vs Not Funding Israel. To which the answer is obvious, Ukraine is fighting off occupying forces and that's all, meanwhile in Israel the situation is you've got two opposing sides both openly stating their intent to genocide each other and simply washing our hands of it is neither ethical or effective.

Instead of yelling at Muslim voters about how bad Trump could be, Democrats should be reaching out to them giving them reasons why they should vote blue instead. This whole topic has been talking about how scary it would be to vote for Trump without actually giving any perks for voting for Biden.

Put yourself in a Muslim's shoes. Simply not voting Trump isn't a vote for Biden, it only empowers Trump. If Muslims don't want to vote Democrat/Biden because pro-Israel, Democrats need to make them want to vote for Democrats, and to do that, they need to convince those voters that Biden is the right one for them specifically.

For Muslims, "vote blue no matter who" and "Trump is worse" offers no incentives for them specifically. They'd just not vote at all.

I don't think it makes much sense to vote for the GOP because you didn't like Biden's response to the Israel/Hamas thing. Like, does anyone actually think the GOP is going to approach the issue with more nuance than Biden did?

https://youtu.be/B6gIrDO165Q?si=B4U6ojrTmp4ARpvI

VFalcone posted...

Instead of yelling at Muslim voters about how bad Trump could be, Democrats should be reaching out to them giving them reasons why they should vote blue instead. This whole topic has been talking about how scary it would be to vote for Trump without actually giving any perks for voting for Biden.

Put yourself in a Muslim's shoes. Simply not voting Trump isn't a vote for Biden, it only empowers Trump. If Muslims don't want to vote Democrat/Biden because pro-Israel, Democrats need to make them want to vote for Democrats, and to do that, they need to convince those voters that Biden is the right one for them specifically.

For Muslims, "vote blue no matter who" and "Trump is worse" offers no incentives for them specifically. They'd just not vote at all.

Id think the incentive would be to not have a President whos on-record wanting to deport you.

Itd kinda be like black people not voting when the alternative is David Duke.

VFalcone posted...

Instead of yelling at Muslim voters about how bad Trump could be, Democrats should be reaching out to them giving them reasons why they should vote blue instead. This whole topic has been talking about how scary it would be to vote for Trump without actually giving any perks for voting for Biden.

The people ITT think minorities should ask for nothing and be grateful Democrats aren't as openly racist as Republicans. The idea that voicing disapproval with the Dems now could encourage Dems to alter their platform before their election makes no sense to them. Either because they view that as ungrateful/irrational, or take it for granted that the Dems will never change, therefore Arab Americans are just making them look bad by disapproving.

One wonders how minorities ever won any rights in the history of the United States

VFalcone posted...

For Muslims, "vote blue no matter who" and "Trump is worse" offers no incentives for them specifically. They'd just not vote at all.

The argument isn't "Trump is worse" as much as it is "Trump will literally deport you or put you in an internment camp"

VFalcone posted...

Instead of yelling at Muslim voters about how bad Trump could be, Democrats should be reaching out to them giving them reasons why they should vote blue instead. This whole topic has been talking about how scary it would be to vote for Trump without actually giving any perks for voting for Biden.

Put yourself in a Muslim's shoes. Simply not voting Trump isn't a vote for Biden, it only empowers Trump. If Muslims don't want to vote Democrat/Biden because pro-Israel, Democrats need to make them want to vote for Democrats, and to do that, they need to convince those voters that Biden is the right one for them specifically.

For Muslims, "vote blue no matter who" and "Trump is worse" offers no incentives for them specifically. They'd just not vote at all.

I don't think Biden is doing enough for anyone. I don't think he is doing enough to protect LGBTQ people. But the alternative is Trump and a Republican takeover, so I am obligated to vote for Biden and I would tell any other LGBTQ person that they have to do the same.

You know, unless you're prepared to flee the country or fight back when the party you let win does what they promised to do.

This is the unfortunate reality. It doesn't matter who we want to vote for or not vote for. Wishing we could enthusiastically vote for someone we like isn't going to will it into existence by 2024.

McMarbles posted...

Id think the incentive would be to not have a President whos on-record wanting to deport you.

Itd kinda be like black people not voting when the alternative is David Duke.

It's really a selfish thing to do, since it'll make things worse for other groups besides their own. Like, the GOP getting control of the presidency and senate would be really really bad for LGBT people, especially trans people right now. So Muslim Americans would be throwing them under the bus just to prove a point that we already understand and have no power over personally.

This is exactly what the GOP wants to happen.

So they want the orange idiot to win? They do realize what he said he will do if he becomes president right? I still dont get people who think not voting or voting third party is good. With how lockstep the republican party votes, splintering any votes for democrats means a repbulican win. We need to get small victories and take small steps. There is no way in hell to get rid of the 2 party system as it is, getting rid of the republican party? Doable. Then we can make real changes.

Single issue voters are a cancer.

Doe posted...

The people ITT think minorities should ask for nothing and be grateful Democrats aren't as openly racist as Republicans. The idea that voicing disapproval with the Dems now could encourage Dems to alter their platform before their election makes no sense to them. Either because they view that as ungrateful/irrational, or take it for granted that the Dems will never change, therefore Arab Americans are just making them look bad by disapproving.

One wonders how minorities ever won any rights in the history of the United States

Trump wins and we're all fucked, but destroying everyone's life forever is worth teaching Joe Biden a lesson! Surely the white supremacists who cheer on Israel winning to trigger the end times will be better for Muslim Americans!

Plumeofdusk posted...

This is exactly what the GOP wants to happen.

I know, it's a damn shame Biden and the Democrats have made so many unforced errors over Isreal.

Doe posted...

The people ITT think minorities should ask for nothing and be grateful Democrats aren't as openly racist as Republicans. The idea that voicing disapproval with the Dems now could encourage Dems to alter their platform before their election makes no sense to them. Either because they view that as ungrateful/irrational, or take it for granted that the Dems will never change, therefore Arab Americans are just making them look bad by disapproving.

One wonders how minorities ever won any rights in the history of the United States

And allowing the openly racist and worse party to win will improve your life more... how?

hockeybub89 posted...

Trump wins and we're all fucked, but destroying everyone's life forever is worth teaching Joe Biden a lesson! Surely the white supremacists who cheer on Israel winning to trigger the end times will be better for Muslim Americans!

Doe posted...

The idea that voicing disapproval with the Dems now could encourage Dems to alter their platform before their election makes no sense to them

Case in point.

Plumeofdusk posted...

I don't think it makes much sense to vote for the GOP because you didn't like Biden's response to the Israel/Hamas thing. Like, does anyone actually think the GOP is going to approach the issue with more nuance than Biden did?

McMarbles posted...

Id think the incentive would be to not have a President whos on-record wanting to deport you.

Itd kinda be like black people not voting when the alternative is David Duke.

Tyranthraxus posted...

The argument isn't "Trump is worse" as much as it is "Trump will literally deport you or put you in an internment camp"

hockeybub89 posted...

But the alternative is Trump and a Republican takeover, so I am obligated to vote for Biden and I would tell any other LGBTQ person that they have to do the same.

All of you just proved my point in record time though. If I were a Muslim who has explicitly decided I don't want to vote for Biden right now because he essentially supports the murder of thousands of my fellow Muslims (keep in mind that I already refuse to vote Trump), no one has given me any reason to actually forgive Biden and VOTE for him instead of just not voting at all.

VFalcone posted...

All of you just proved my point in record time though. If I were a Muslim who has explicitly decided I don't want to vote for Biden right now because he essentially supports the murder of thousands of my fellow Muslims (keep in mind that I already refuse to vote Trump), no one has given me any reason to actually forgive Biden and VOTE for him instead of just not voting at all.

They genuinely believe Arab Americans owe Biden a vote, no matter what, as long as Trump is as bad or worse. That there is no onus or expectation of the Democratic party to do right by them.

VFalcone posted...

All of you just proved my point in record time though. If I were a Muslim who has explicitly decided I don't want to vote for Biden right now because he essentially supports the murder of thousands of my fellow Muslims (keep in mind that I already refuse to vote Trump), no one has given me any reason to actually forgive Biden and VOTE for him instead of just not voting at all.

Again, as I've already said, do whatever you want. It's a free country (for now). Just don't say I didn't warn you.

VFalcone posted...

All of you just proved my point in record time though. If I were a Muslim who has explicitly decided I don't want to vote for Biden right now because he essentially supports the murder of thousands of my fellow Muslims (keep in mind that I already refuse to vote Trump), no one has given me any reason to actually forgive Biden and VOTE for him instead of just not voting at all.

Which gives the win to republicans who would most likely send even more support for Israel. How the fuck do people still not realize republicans vote lock step no matter what and splintering the vote is going to be a win for them?

VFalcone posted...

All of you just proved my point in record time though. If I were a Muslim who has explicitly decided I don't want to vote for Biden right now because he essentially supports the murder of thousands of my fellow Muslims (keep in mind that I already refuse to vote Trump), no one has given me any reason to actually forgive Biden and VOTE for him instead of just not voting at all.

I'll give you a reason, the other guy is worse and will make things even worse for you and everyone else. :v Shouldn't be that complicated, just go vote. It takes like 10 minutes.

VFalcone posted...

All of you just proved my point in record time though. If I were a Muslim who has explicitly decided I don't want to vote for Biden right now because he essentially supports the murder of thousands of my fellow Muslims (keep in mind that I already refuse to vote Trump), no one has given me any reason to actually forgive Biden and VOTE for him instead of just not voting at all.

Because not voting for Biden is voting for Trump and that will make your life worse. I hate Biden too, but he has to win. I'm not burning down the country and ruining everyone's life just because I hate Biden.

It doesn't matter whether we like it or not, we have to vote for survival.

LightHawKnight posted...

How the fuck do people still not realize republicans vote lock step no matter what

Only when it comes to dicking over Democrats and Liberals.
On their own they go at each others' throats. You saw the whole speaker mess.

VFalcone posted...

All of you just proved my point in record time though. If I were a Muslim who has explicitly decided I don't want to vote for Biden right now because he essentially supports the murder of thousands of my fellow Muslims (keep in mind that I already refuse to vote Trump), no one has given me any reason to actually forgive Biden and VOTE for him instead of just not voting at all.

Ultimately, like in the UK with the tories, it is to keep the conservatives out.

Yeah, Democrats/Labour both suck something terrible and support genocide, but so do the conservative parties. And they also want to strip rights from minorities in our respective countries.

It's shit and I will be voting for labour while throwing up, but helping the worse party get in solves nothing and our political systems dont allow for third party votes.

Avirosb posted...

Only when it comes to dicking over Democrats and Liberals.
On their own they go at each others' throats. You saw the whole speaker mess.

They still voted for the crazy to get the role. Sure they fight and more so now that the orange idiot made it a thing. They are still all going to vote for him. If he wins we are fucked.

It's far easier to take decorum Democrats to task than the party that revels in mudslinging and shit-stirring.

Doe posted...

They genuinely believe Arab Americans owe Biden a vote, no matter what, as long as Trump is as bad or worse. That there is no onus or expectation of the Democratic party to do right by them.

You don't owe Biden or the Democrats a vote. You owe yourself and everyone else a fighting chance.

"Voting to get punched in the genitals is stupid and the genital-punching party isn't learning. Maybe I'll let the get-thrown-off-a-cliff party win. That'll will teach those genital punchers a lesson. Wait why is there a cliff? Ahhhhhhhhhh!"

What don't you people understand? Voting is an affirmative act. People have to have a reason to go out and do it. The vast majority of human beings only vote to protect or improve life for themselves or their loved ones. That doesn't seem to be on the table as both options will kill their loved ones. At that point, people lose interest, regardless of how bad the other option is.

I would've thought that people learned from 2016 that obligation politics doesn't work. The other guy is bad politics doesn't work if you are also bad enough for people. You have to offer a certain level of quality and "I'll kill your family regardless" is well below that level.

You and Biden are walking straight into a brick wall and then you're going to blame Muslims/Palestinians when you break your nose. However logical you think you're being, your logic is very limited if it can't account for this. Telling people that they're stupid, acting like they don't understand the alternatives, blaming them for the destruction of the Republic rather than asking Biden to be better.....we'll see how that works out.

Doe posted...

Case in point.

And maybe they will alter their platform. Still have to make sure the Democrats win regardless. You're not taking me down with you.

hockeybub89 posted...

You don't owe Biden or the Democrats a vote. You owe yourself and everyone else a fighting chance.

"Voting to get punched in the genitals is stupid and the genital-punching party isn't learning. Maybe I'll let the get-thrown-off-a-cliff party win. That'll will teach those genital punchers a lesson. Wait why is there a cliff? Ahhhhhhhhhh!"

But have you considered that being punched in the nuts is a worthy cause if it means the people I don't like also get nut punched???

legendary_zell posted...

What don't you people understand? Voting is an affirmative act. People have to have a reason to go out and do it. The vast majority of human beings only vote to protect or improve life for themselves or their loved ones. That doesn't seem to be on the table as both options will kill their loved ones. At that point, people lose interest, regardless of how bad the other option is.

I would've thought that people learned from 2016 that obligation politics doesn't work. The other guy is bad politics doesn't work if you are also bad enough for people. You have to offer a certain level of quality and "I'll kill your family regardless" is well below that level.

You and Biden are walking straight into a brick wall and then you're going to blame Muslims/Palestinians when you break your nose. However logical you think you're being, your logic is very limited if it can't account for this. Telling people that they're stupid, acting like they don't understand the alternatives, blaming them for the destruction of the Republic rather than asking Biden to be better.....we'll see how that works out.

So instead of voting for the party that does the absolute bare minimum and actually did things to help us the people. The party that can actually govern. People are going to not vote so the party of NO POLICY. That does NOTHING but cut taxes for the rich and allow people to be bigots to win is better for the people somehow?

legendary_zell posted...

I would've thought that people learned from 2016 that obligation politics doesn't work. The other guy is bad politics doesn't work if you are also bad enough for people. You have to offer a certain level of quality and "I'll kill your family regardless" is well below that level.

Ah, is this both-sideism?

legendary_zell posted...

What don't you people understand? Voting is an affirmative act. People have to have a reason to go out and do it. The vast majority of human beings only vote to protect or improve life for themselves or their loved ones. That doesn't seem to be on the table as both options will kill their loved ones. At that point, people lose interest, regardless of how bad the other option is.

I would've thought that people learned from 2016 that obligation politics doesn't work. The other guy is bad politics doesn't work if you are also bad enough for people. You have to offer a certain level of quality and "I'll kill your family regardless" is well below that level.

You and Biden are walking straight into a brick wall and then you're going to blame Muslims/Palestinians when you break your nose. However logical you think you're being, your logic is very limited if it can't account for this. Telling people that they're stupid, acting like they don't understand the alternatives, blaming them for the destruction of the Republic rather than asking Biden to be better.....we'll see how that works out.

It's going to work out for them about as well as it did for those third party Jill Stein voters back in 2016. :v

"Hey check it out! I'm paying for an ethnic cleansing with your tax dollars."

"Dude, what the fuck? I'm not going to vote for you if you continue this."

"Oh wow, so you hate democracy huh? You do realize that if I lose then the other guys will send you to an internment camp, and my party of more than half the population won't lift a finger to stop them even though you're a US citizen, because we'll all have burned the constitution by then and sworn allegiance to a monarchy. You know that, right?"

"Well putting aside that questionable logic, don't you want to win too? And the more popular action across your voting bloc is to call for a ceasefire. The general election is a year away. So if we both want the same thing, why don't you earn my vote instead of continuing to support an electorally unpopular massacre of civilians while telling me to stop being uppity?"

[Joe Biden's head explodes. Everyone in the topic stands up clapping and DToast gives me twenty dollars]

legendary_zell posted...

What don't you people understand? Voting is an affirmative act. People have to have a reason to go out and do it. The vast majority of human beings only vote to protect or improve life for themselves or their loved ones. That doesn't seem to be on the table as both options will kill their loved ones. At that point, people lose interest, regardless of how bad the other option is.

I would've thought that people learned from 2016 that obligation politics doesn't work. The other guy is bad politics doesn't work if you are also bad enough for people. You have to offer a certain level of quality and "I'll kill your family regardless" is well below that level.

You and Biden are walking straight into a brick wall and then you're going to blame Muslims/Palestinians when you break your nose. However logical you think you're being, your logic is very limited if it can't account for this. Telling people that they're stupid, acting like they don't understand the alternatives, blaming them for the destruction of the Republic rather than asking Biden to be better.....we'll see how that works out.

You make some good points but I think this presents a false binary. I'm not sure anyone is making the argument that Biden is right because Trump is worse. They're just pointing out the gee, if you think Biden is a bad choice because of his weak stance on Israel, wait until the republicans get their hands on the situation and make him seem like a care bear.

In an ironic twist of the above, american politics is a binary, at least in any practical sense. Republicans bunker down and get tribal, democrats splinter while trying to be better. That's why republicans win.

I'm not sure how allowing republicans to win power because the democrats aren't as good as we want them to be is helpful.

legendary_zell posted...

What don't you people understand? Voting is an affirmative act. People have to have a reason to go out and do it. The vast majority of human beings only vote to protect or improve life for themselves or their loved ones. That doesn't seem to be on the table as both options will kill their loved ones. At that point, people lose interest, regardless of how bad the other option is.

I would've thought that people learned from 2016 that obligation politics doesn't work. The other guy is bad politics doesn't work if you are also bad enough for people. You have to offer a certain level of quality and "I'll kill your family regardless" is well below that level.

You and Biden are walking straight into a brick wall and then you're going to blame Muslims/Palestinians when you break your nose. However logical you think you're being, your logic is very limited if it can't account for this. Telling people that they're stupid, acting like they don't understand the alternatives, blaming them for the destruction of the Republic rather than asking Biden to be better.....we'll see how that works out.

Yep. This. Get the Republicans in office so that they start going ham on genocide so we can have a democratic president who promises to rollback the genocide instead of just not going ham on genocide in the first place. 100% then you'll have an affirmative reason to vote for Democrats. Assuming there's an election at all.

The proper way to punish Democrats isnt to give power to republicans. Its to give it to leftists.

legendary_zell posted...

You and Biden are walking straight into a brick wall and then you're going to blame Muslims/Palestinians when you break your nose. However logical you think you're being, your logic is very limited if it can't account for this. Telling people that they're stupid, acting like they don't understand the alternatives, blaming them for the destruction of the Republic rather than asking Biden to be better.....we'll see how that works out.

I'm sure those of my fellow queer people who take a stand on Biden not having their back will feel real smug when the party that thinks they are rapist pedophiles that need to disappear from society takes over instead. That will teach Biden and our two-party system!

Doe posted...

"Hey check it out! I'm paying for an ethnic cleansing with your tax dollars."

"Dude, what the fuck? I'm not going to vote for you if you continue this."

"Oh wow, so you hate democracy huh? You do realize that if I lose then the other guys will send you to an internment camp, and my party of more than half the population won't lift a finger to stop them even though you're a US citizen, because we'll all have burned the constitution by then and sworn allegiance to a monarchy. You know that, right?"

"Well putting aside that questionable logic, don't you want to win too? And the more popular action across your voting bloc is to call for a ceasefire. The general election is a year away. So if we both want the same thing, why don't you earn my vote instead of continuing to support an electorally unpopular massacre of civilians while telling me to stop being uppity?"

[Joe Biden's head explodes. Everyone in the topic stands up clapping and DToast gives me twenty dollars]

"And if you don't change, I'll just let the party that wants Israel to massacre harder win!"

We have to do our best with our shitty two party system in America. Again, Democrats and Biden suck hard, but the only other option we have is fascism. Those are the facts. Why is this so hard to understand?

SaikyoStyle posted...

The proper way to punish Democrats isnt to give power to republicans. Its to give it to leftists.

This too. That's why I said we need to make sure the Republican party is powerless first, then we can work on replacing centrist establishment types with actual leftists. That can't happen if Republicans take over the country.

lmao at people thinking they'll "punish" an establishment party when being oppo is the easier gig.

Southernfatman posted...

We have to do our best with our shitty two party system in America. Again, Democrats and Biden suck hard, but the only other option we have is fascism. Those are the facts. Why is this so hard to understand?

This too. That's why I said we need to make sure the Republican party is powerless first, then we can work on replacing centrist establishment types with actual leftists.

At this point, it has to be republicans pretending to be on the fence really. I really dont get how there are so many fence sitters left when republicans have been mask off facists for so long now.

Southernfatman posted...

We have to do our best with our shitty two party system in America. Again, Democrats and Biden suck hard, but the only other option we have is fascism. Those are the facts. Why is this so hard to understand?

This too. That's why I said we need to make sure the Republican party is powerless, then we can work on replacing centrist establishment types with actual leftists.

All this. I give this same argument to conservatives who 'say' they're disillusioned with the two party system. Republicans aren't competing for votes because they don't offer anything to people that aren't a fortune 500 company or a raving psychopath, so why vote for them if they don't materially give you anything?

The end goal is to make the dems & regressives past tense, so that the Dems become the only right leaning party while actual progressives & leftists are the current dem party.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Yep. This. Get the Republicans in office so that they start going ham on genocide so we can have a democratic president who promises to rollback the genocide instead of just not going ham on genocide in the first place. 100% then you'll have an affirmative reason to vote for Democrats. Assuming there's an election at all.

If anything, the Democrats would have to do even less to earn votes in that scenario. Or would Doe and VFalcone be like "Not being fascist dictators is just you being less bad. I don't owe you a vote for that!"

pinky0926 posted...

I'm not sure how allowing republicans to win power because the democrats aren't as good as we want them to be is helpful.

This.

I'm not sure how helping the party that wants to do the same to you in America/UK etc as Isrsel is doing helps improve anything.

It sucks, yes, and I dont fault any Muslim etc for despising Biden or Starmer but we can only work with the political system we have.

hockeybub89 posted...

I'm sure those of my fellow queer people who take a stand on Biden not having their back will feel real smug when the party that thinks they are rapist pedophiles that need to disappear from society takes over instead. That will teach Biden and our two-party system!

Is Biden himself killing you? Would you vote for Biden if he was killing LGBT people, but Trump wanted to do even worse?

LightHawKnight posted...

At this point, it has to be republicans pretending to be on the fence really. I really dont get how there are so many fence sitters left when republicans have been mask off facists for so long now.

I think that's a large part of it since they like to pose and "centrists", but I think there are many who just don't understand our political system or how dire things really are and how close we are to a fascist takeover.

LightHawKnight posted...

At this point, it has to be republicans pretending to be on the fence really. I really dont get how there are so many fence sitters left when republicans have been mask off facists for so long now.

There's definitely people who secretly endorse Muslim genocide and pose as disillusioned leftists online to convince others to not vote. Though most of them are from Russia.

legendary_zell posted...

Is Biden himself killing you? Would you vote for Biden if he was killing LGBT people, but Trump wanted to do even worse?

Look at it this way, if you're being chased by someone would you rather get chased by the guy with a knife or the guy with the chainsaw? :v Or would you rather lay down and let both of them get you?

This...is a really bad sign for the democrats. My jewish mom and her friends were somewhere in the middle and they're turning harder on the Democrats because they see them as anti-semitic and anti-Jewish in how they've responded to the situation in the middle East. Not Biden but the other members of the party, and the things that are going on at colleges etc. So if they lose support from both Israeli and Palestinian sympathizers this will really harm them. A lot in this circle see Israel as defending themself after a horrific terrorist attack and the anti-israel people and the anti-semitic people get lumped together.

The thing is, you're all minimizing what's actually happening here because you have to for your point to not seem callous and awful. Biden isn't "not being as good as they want" or "not being perfect" or "not having their back".

He's funding their unrestrained death, destruction, and ethnic cleansing. He's blocking any attempts to stop it. As much as anyone not in the IDF or the Knesset, he caused this many times over:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/31/world/palestinian-american-family-relatives-killed-gaza