Board 8 > Nook's FF Topic [FF16 hype] [Series Ranking]

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trdl23
04/23/23 2:52:12 PM
#101:


There's a great (and very long) video documenting why FF15 was such a flop. tl;dr fuck Nomura, don't ever let him out of the art room.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8lvAq_yp_w

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trdl23
04/23/23 2:52:52 PM
#102:


TomNook7 posted...
btw, are there any ff14 fans in here? Should i rank the expansions individually, or wait till i finish endwalker first and then rank ff14 as a whole?
The latter imo for the reasons Kanz and Luis said

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KanzarisKelshen
04/23/23 3:03:40 PM
#103:


trdl23 posted...
There's a great (and very long) video documenting why FF15 was such a flop. tl;dr fuck Nomura, don't ever let him out of the art room.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8lvAq_yp_w

That wasn't Nomura tho. The reason XV is what it is is Hajime Tabata. Game has much more in common with Type 0 than with Stranger of Paradise, just to name a recent game Nomura made that is an action rpg.

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MacArrowny
04/23/23 3:21:18 PM
#104:


XV probably would've been much better if Nomura had actually made it

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Xiahou_Shake
04/23/23 3:22:32 PM
#105:


The only recent ARPG Nomura has made is Kingdom Hearts 3 - he had comparatively little to do with Stranger of Paradise, development of which wasn't even led by Squeenix but by Team Ninja.

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MacArrowny
04/23/23 3:30:33 PM
#106:


Xiahou_Shake posted...
The only recent ARPG Nomura has made is Kingdom Hearts 3 - he had comparatively little to do with Stranger of Paradise, development of which wasn't even led by Squeenix but by Team Ninja.
FF7 Remake 1 is Nomura.

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KamikazePotato
04/23/23 3:33:50 PM
#107:


The final state of FF15 can't be laid at any one person's feet. The fact of the matter is that Square as a whole botched it from start to finish.

Nomura earned some points when I learned that he was the one pushing against the weird plot choices in FF7 Remake. Not enough points to offset KH3 though.

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Xiahou_Shake
04/23/23 3:45:48 PM
#108:


MacArrowny posted...
FF7 Remake 1 is Nomura.
True, FF7R is partly Nomura but he was joined by other directors and just based on what we know it's difficult to draw the lines of where influence starts and stops. If anything I'd suspect Naoki Hamaguchi had the most to do with it since he's helming the rest of the Remake series and Nomura was in full development of KH3 at the time.

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trdl23
04/23/23 4:29:06 PM
#109:


KanzarisKelshen posted...
That wasn't Nomura tho. The reason XV is what it is is Hajime Tabata. Game has much more in common with Type 0 than with Stranger of Paradise, just to name a recent game Nomura made that is an action rpg.
My dude, watch the video when you get a chance, Nomura deserves a LOT of the flak here

(Edited since I accidentally submitted halfway through my sentence lol)

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KamikazePotato
04/23/23 4:29:49 PM
#110:


trdl23 posted...
My dude, watch the video
It's 52 minutes long. I've watched it too but if you want the points to be expressed, you should probably summarize it.

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KanzarisKelshen
04/23/23 4:43:09 PM
#111:


trdl23 posted...
My dude, watch the video when you get a chance, Nomura deserves a LOT of the flak here

(Edited since I accidentally submitted halfway through my sentence lol)

I watched it a long time ago and some points just don't align with the facts is the thing. A lot of the 'Nomura blame' comes down to the fact that the tech team designing Luminous Engine/Crystal Tools did a terrible job, so Versus XIII was being developed alongside an engine that was A) not complete, and B) not built to actually handle it. Historical record shows Tetsuya Nomura delivers games consistently and on time, for the most part. The problems came from elsewhere in large part.

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KamikazePotato
04/23/23 4:44:42 PM
#112:


It's incredible how Luminous Engines ruined Square development cycles for like, two console generations. Imagine an alternative timeline where they bite the bullet and learn Unreal Engine early on.

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trdl23
04/23/23 4:44:47 PM
#113:


KamikazePotato posted...
It's 52 minutes long. I've watched it too but if you want the points to be expressed, you should probably summarize it.
Yeah you right, I just woke up so my brain scrambled. My bad.

For more detail go to 41 minutes into said video.

Basically:

  • Nomura wanted darker and edgelord-ified Final Fantasy for "Versus 13"
  • Communications went dark over the course of 7 years, over which he was still ostensibly the director
  • Tabata came in after the rebrand to 15 was announced and was met with a staff at the end of its rope, overworked and constantly having to redo what they'd already done
  • Nomura, in classic Nomura fashion, couldn't decide on his own story, changing it significantly a few times each year, at one point demanding to turn 15 into a musical after he saw Les Miserables.
  • Nomura got to fuck off to KH3 later and leave Tabata with a steaming pile of shit -- and as the public face for the game doomed to mediocrity as a result.


Seriously, Nomura is a blight on the damn company, and Tabata couldn't pull off the miracle Yoshida did.

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pjbasis
04/23/23 4:59:20 PM
#114:


FFXV falls at the bottom of my rankings, at least for main numbered games. It's weird to say its outright worse than an NES game, but I guess taking into account what they tried to pull off for their time, XV is just a big fail.

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BetrayedTangy
04/23/23 5:02:40 PM
#115:


To me it seems like Square wanted XV to be this huge AAA release, whereas Nomura just wanted to make a passion project. This was a recipe for disaster as soon as they turned Versus XIII into the next mainline entry.

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_stingers_
04/23/23 5:03:20 PM
#116:


Tag

I agree that 15 is worse than 13 which is worse than 12. Which should leave me disinterested in 16 but 7R went a long way to restore my faith in the franchise so I'm holding out some hope

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KamikazePotato
04/23/23 5:09:51 PM
#117:


I'm gonna be really sad when FF16 comes out, is great, and sells poorly because of FF15's reputation and being locked on an underperforming console.

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trdl23
04/23/23 5:13:21 PM
#118:


KamikazePotato posted...
I'm gonna be really sad when FF16 comes out, is great, and sells poorly because of FF15's reputation and being locked on an underperforming console.
God I hope this doesn't happen. I'm hoping its gameplay becoming more spectacle-fighter style might differentiate it enough

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KanzarisKelshen
04/23/23 5:45:34 PM
#119:




Basically:

Nomura wanted darker and edgelord-ified Final Fantasy for "Versus 13"
Communications went dark over the course of 7 years, over which he was still ostensibly the director
Tabata came in after the rebrand to 15 was announced and was met with a staff at the end of its rope, overworked and constantly having to redo what they'd already done
Nomura, in classic Nomura fashion, couldn't decide on his own story, changing it significantly a few times each year, at one point demanding to turn 15 into a musical after he saw Les Miserables.
Nomura got to fuck off to KH3 later and leave Tabata with a steaming pile of shit -- and as the public face for the game doomed to mediocrity as a result.

Seriously, Nomura is a blight on the damn company, and Tabata couldn't pull off the miracle Yoshida did.

That's not what more trustworthy accounts of the development say, is the thing. So...yeah I don't take it seriously. By all reckonings, the staff didn't have a direction, but it was because there were countermanded orders coming from on high, above Nomura. Nomura consistently insisted it was going to be the tale of two rival noble families, which is why that plot is going to be told in KH4, still. You don't like Nomura, but you're actually, factually wrong about his responsibility in XV's failure. He didn't get the initial version finished, but it was due to a lot of issues elsewhere.

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MacArrowny
04/23/23 6:16:08 PM
#120:


If you want a bad Nomura game, there's always 3rd Birthday as a shining example of trash.

KamikazePotato posted...
I'm gonna be really sad when FF16 comes out, is great, and sells poorly because of FF15's reputation and being locked on an underperforming console.
Underperforming how? Did you miss the news that PS5 surpassed PS4's launch-aligned sales in March?

KamikazePotato posted...
It's incredible how Luminous Engines ruined Square development cycles for like, two console generations. Imagine an alternative timeline where they bite the bullet and learn Unreal Engine early on.
Worth noting that part of the reason it took so long for Japanese devs to start using Unreal Engine is that there was no Japanese documentation for it. It's too bad it took so long for Epic to work on that aspect, too.

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KanzarisKelshen
04/23/23 6:17:33 PM
#121:


If you want a bad Nomura game, there's always 3rd Birthday as a shining example of trash.

Third Birthday wasn't Nomura! He was completely uninvolved in it! That game was made by...wait for it...Hajime Tabata! The same guy who did the finalized version of XV!

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KamikazePotato
04/23/23 6:25:08 PM
#122:


https://twitter.com/VGChartz/status/1630968231945961475

Although this is actually better than I thought considering all the shortages. Still, the install base for the PS5 is currently lower than the PS4's was when FF15 released. 15 was also multiplatform, including the PC. Actually it's pretty nuts that a PC version of FF16 doesn't seem to be in the dev pipeline at all. That cuts a lot of people out of getting it - myself included.

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KanzarisKelshen
04/23/23 6:30:45 PM
#123:


Although this is actually better than I thought considering all the shortages. Still, the install base for the PS5 is currently lower than the PS4's was when FF15 released. 15 was also multiplatform, including the PC. Actually it's pretty nuts that a PC version of FF16 doesn't seem to be in the dev pipeline at all. That cuts a lot of people out of getting it - myself included.

It's confirmed to be in the works, YoshiP is just under contract to not say 'PC version inc bitches' because sony has an exclusivity deal with square for FF16 for some time. Prolly 6 to 12 months before it comes out after the PS5 version?

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FFDragon
04/23/23 6:30:55 PM
#124:


fuck all of you for making me remember 3rd birthday exists

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KanzarisKelshen
04/23/23 6:31:53 PM
#125:


FFDragon posted...
fuck all of you for making me remember 3rd birthday exists

This is the correctest take btw, there's a reason Tabata is in part of the unholy trinity of hack directors from squeenix alongside Motomu Toriyama and Hiromitchi Tanaka and Nomura isn't

He has yet to produce a game that is actively bad the way those hacks did

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MacArrowny
04/23/23 6:44:58 PM
#126:


KanzarisKelshen posted...
Third Birthday wasn't Nomura! He was completely uninvolved in it! That game was made by...wait for it...Hajime Tabata! The same guy who did the finalized version of XV!
...Wait, really? That's hilarious. Wonder why I thought it was Nomura.

KamikazePotato posted...
https://twitter.com/VGChartz/status/1630968231945961475

Although this is actually better than I thought considering all the shortages. Still, the install base for the PS5 is currently lower than the PS4's was when FF15 released. 15 was also multiplatform, including the PC. Actually it's pretty nuts that a PC version of FF16 doesn't seem to be in the dev pipeline at all. That cuts a lot of people out of getting it - myself included.
VGChartz numbers are mostly made up, though yeah, worldwide numbers aren't clear. PS5 surpassed launch-aligned PS4 in Japan a few months back and in North America in March. Also, the reason Sony bought exclusivity for it is for it to be a system seller. They want people to buy PS5s to play FFXVI.

KanzarisKelshen posted...
It's confirmed to be in the works, YoshiP is just under contract to not say 'PC version inc bitches' because sony has an exclusivity deal with square for FF16 for some time. Prolly 6 to 12 months before it comes out after the PS5 version?
12 months is likely, yeah.

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UshiromiyaEva
04/23/23 6:49:32 PM
#127:


The exact YoshiP statement was that the exclusivity deal is 6 months, bug that that doesn't mean the PC version will be out in 6 months.

It's something that needs to be said because 9 times out a 10 a console exclusivity deal is just the team holding a completed game back for marketing, and they don't want people claiming they "lied".

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trdl23
04/23/23 7:03:52 PM
#128:


KanzarisKelshen posted...
He has yet to produce a game that is actively bad the way those hacks did
Depends entirely on if you think all KH games fall outside of "actively bad"

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KanzarisKelshen
04/23/23 7:10:47 PM
#129:


trdl23 posted...
Depends entirely on if you think all KH games fall outside of "actively bad"

The metric for actively bad here is 'failed so badly they almost killed the company outright, poisoned the well for two significantly better sequels, or actively killed a beloved franchise'

Which is what Tanaka, Toriyama and Tabata did with their works, respectively

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UshiromiyaEva
04/23/23 7:12:41 PM
#130:


Nomura's games tend to suck more often than not nowadays, but I don't think he's made an outright failure in relation to budget.

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MacArrowny
04/23/23 7:19:17 PM
#131:


From what I can see, Nomura's directed every KH game, FF7R1, and nothing else.

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KanzarisKelshen
04/23/23 7:20:11 PM
#132:


UshiromiyaEva posted...
Nomura's games tend to suck more often than not nowadays, but I don't think he's made an outright failure in relation to budget.

IDK about that. His last five major games are:

-Theatrhythm Final Bar Line (widely beloved)
-Stranger of Paradise: Final Fantasy Origin (warmly received, meme fiesta)
-NEO TWEWY (sold poorly, but extremely well liked by its fanbase)
-KH Melody of Memory (kind of a meme game, reception was positive but not stellar)
-FF7 Remake (speaks for itself)

That's all hits of some stripe, and some of them massive hits either critically, financially or both. There's always this instinct to blame Nomura and treat him like a failure and idk where it comes from. The man is objectively the second most successful game director at Square, and like the third or fourth overall in Square-Enix after Yuji Naka, YoshiP and perhaps Yoko Taro. One can dislike his works without trying to paint him as a failure! He's never been the reason for Square having a tarnished reputation.

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UshiromiyaEva
04/23/23 7:25:45 PM
#133:


I guess KH3 just sticks out in my mind as being a particular disaster, but I'm certain it sold very well.

I don't really count stuff like rythmn games but that's just me being nitpicky.

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MacArrowny
04/23/23 7:35:01 PM
#134:


UshiromiyaEva posted...
I guess KH3 just sticks out in my mind as being a particular disaster, but I'm certain it sold very well.

I don't really count stuff like rythmn games but that's just me being nitpicky.
Not counting rhythm games would be as dumb as not counting MMOs.

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Xiahou_Shake
04/23/23 7:47:47 PM
#135:


KanzarisKelshen posted...
IDK about that. His last five major games are:

-Theatrhythm Final Bar Line (widely beloved)
-Stranger of Paradise: Final Fantasy Origin (warmly received, meme fiesta)
-NEO TWEWY (sold poorly, but extremely well liked by its fanbase)
-KH Melody of Memory (kind of a meme game, reception was positive but not stellar)
-FF7 Remake (speaks for itself)
I know Square Enix is mostly to blame for this because of the extremely liberal way they slap Nomura's name on things but it's still nuts to me how often folks attribute games to him where he had little to almost completely nothing to do with the game itself

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KanzarisKelshen
04/23/23 8:28:56 PM
#136:


UshiromiyaEva posted...
I guess KH3 just sticks out in my mind as being a particular disaster, but I'm certain it sold very well.

I don't really count stuff like rythmn games but that's just me being nitpicky.

KH3 is a phenomenal game post launch though. I can certainly believe launch KH3 wasn't that good but I played it after and it's unquestionably the tightest, most enjoyable, most fun Kingdom Hearts game. The story even ends well with the DLC, too.

Xiahou_Shake posted...
I know Square Enix is mostly to blame for this because of the extremely liberal way they slap Nomura's name on things but it's still nuts to me how often folks attribute games to him where he had little to almost completely nothing to do with the game itself

I need to research Theatrhythm but Nomura was absolutely heavily involved in Stranger of Paradise and NEO TWEWY. He was the guy pushing and pushing to the suits for NEO to get greenlit, he did the character designs for most of the characters and so on. Stranger of Paradise was flat out his story concept, too. He's spoken at length about how he had the story of 'an angry man' in the pocket since Dissidia Duodecim. Team Ninja did the gameplay, but the game concept was Nomura's brainchild and he's the one who got Kazushige Nojima to write the story treatment.

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TomNook7
04/23/23 9:02:39 PM
#137:


What do you guys think about Stranger of Paradise? I havent played it. Is it so bad its good, or what

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Xiahou_Shake
04/23/23 9:02:57 PM
#138:


KanzarisKelshen posted...
I need to research Theatrhythm but Nomura was absolutely heavily involved in Stranger of Paradise and NEO TWEWY. He was the guy pushing and pushing to the suits for NEO to get greenlit, he did the character designs for most of the characters and so on. Stranger of Paradise was flat out his story concept, too. He's spoken at length about how he had the story of 'an angry man' in the pocket since Dissidia Duodecim. Team Ninja did the gameplay, but the game concept was Nomura's brainchild and he's the one who got Kazushige Nojima to write the story treatment.
See, neither of those come close to crossing the border of "heavily involved" to me. Credit where credit is due, he definitely deserves to be recognized for pushing for a greenlight for NEO TWEWY and for his work on it as an artist. Stranger of Paradise yeah I'll recognize he had the loose concept of the story but if someone else actually wrote it and a completely different studio made, you know, the entire game, I'm not seeing how either of these examples result in these games being spoke of as "his games" like he directed them or even really had anything to do with their development as games. Yuji Himukai is a fucking incredible artist but I wouldn't say he should get directors credits on any of the Etrian Odyssey games!

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redrocket
04/23/23 9:13:45 PM
#139:


TomNook7 posted...
What do you guys think about Stranger of Paradise? I havent played it. Is it so bad its good, or what

It suffered from a weird marketing campaign that made it look like more of a meme fest than it actually is. Its got a solid story and character arc for Jack, and the gameplay is Team Ninjas usual great fare.

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pjbasis
04/23/23 9:21:57 PM
#140:


KanzarisKelshen posted...
KH3 is a phenomenal game post launch though. I can certainly believe launch KH3 wasn't that good but I played it after and it's unquestionably the tightest, most enjoyable, most fun Kingdom Hearts game. The story even ends well with the DLC, too.

this pro-nomura narrative is starting to lose credibility

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KamikazePotato
04/23/23 9:24:08 PM
#141:


Stranger of Paradise had one of the worst marketing for a major (or semi-major) game I've seen in recent years. I only hesitate to say the worst because Forspoken exists. Not a great track record for Square!

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UshiromiyaEva
04/23/23 9:29:07 PM
#142:


pjbasis posted...
this pro-nomura narrative is starting to lose credibility

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/3/8/5/AAeolZAAEaUh.jpg

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trdl23
04/23/23 9:47:15 PM
#143:


TomNook7 posted...
What do you guys think about Stranger of Paradise? I havent played it. Is it so bad its good, or what
According to my friend who played it and enjoyed it thoroughly, its value is directly proportional to how big of an old-school Final Fantasy fan you are

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MacArrowny
04/23/23 10:06:43 PM
#144:


KamikazePotato posted...
Stranger of Paradise had one of the worst marketing for a major (or semi-major) game I've seen in recent years. I only hesitate to say the worst because Forspoken exists. Not a great track record for Square!
It's pretty weird how they spoiled one of the biggest twists in the game in the reveal trailer.

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KanzarisKelshen
04/23/23 10:25:17 PM
#145:


pjbasis posted...
this pro-nomura narrative is starting to lose credibility

No, I'm serious. Did you play the postgame? They added a ton of extra moves and a sick amount of excellent bosses to test them on. The front half of KH3 isn't super good, but the back half (things like Big Hero 6's playground city, the limitcut episode, a lot of little touches in the finale) are terrific. It's a weird game but it almost ruined KH2 for me because even though it's still such a good game, KH3 is even more fluid and rich.

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colliding
04/24/23 10:07:55 AM
#146:


KH3 is good but it's not the best in the series. Lukewarm take I know, but I have to push against the idea that it's the best one!

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UshiromiyaEva
04/24/23 10:13:37 AM
#147:


I could definitely see myself digging back into KH2 one day, but nobody could pay me enough money to touch any other game in that franchise again.

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Hades
04/24/23 11:17:29 AM
#148:


MacArrowny posted...
It's pretty weird how they spoiled one of the biggest twists in the game in the reveal trailer.

I think they eventually gave in on this simply because they knew they weren't kidding anyone by pretending Jack's identity was a mystery.
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TomNook7
04/24/23 5:07:39 PM
#149:


ITT:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/9/8/7/AAK53VAAEad7.jpg

#13. Final Fantasy

I just played through this on NES a week ago, and honestly... it was pretty refreshing going back to the basics. My four ORB bearers were Warrior / Black Belt / Red Mage / White Mage.

And I genuinely enjoyed learning all the quirks of the early game through trial and error - old skool NES / Fromsouls style. You kind of just have to figure out for yourself that enemies on land give better EXP, while enemies in the water drop more gil. Items and spell slots are a huge luxury, so every battle can be a struggle. When you get the ship, the world opens up quite a bit, and it's fun to get lost and explore. And don't forget the Peninsula of Power.

That all said, the game was hilariously bugged. Half the spells didn't work, and the other half worked TOO well. I printed out the game's manual to help me, but even that sucked because a bunch of the spell descriptions were mistranslated. Gaming in the late 80's / early 90's was just the wild wild west, man.

And I know there's way better versions of FF1, but I'm an insane person so 8.3

The ranking so far
#13. FF1 - 8.3
#14. FF15 - 8.0
#15. DoC FF7 - 6.0
#16. FF2 - 3.5
#17. FF13 - 3.0

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skullbone
04/24/23 5:26:17 PM
#150:


KanzarisKelshen posted...
No, I'm serious. Did you play the postgame? They added a ton of extra moves and a sick amount of excellent bosses to test them on. The front half of KH3 isn't super good, but the back half (things like Big Hero 6's playground city, the limitcut episode, a lot of little touches in the finale) are terrific. It's a weird game but it almost ruined KH2 for me because even though it's still such a good game, KH3 is even more fluid and rich.

The DLC fights are particularly good too. Each one is like a puzzle or a rhythm game finding out when you need to dodge, block, and attack during the boss pattern.

I mean they're all good except the super secret final fight, fuck that fight.

Some of those DLC fights took me an hour+ to get down which is longer than I spent on any fight in other difficult games like Elden Ring.

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