Board 8 > Nook's FF Topic [FF16 hype] [Series Ranking]

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pjbasis
05/29/23 10:06:46 AM
#403:


That's a good point, the game is very heavy handed with its design so that you basically just have to "match the colors/shapes" for most battles, really deincentivizing creativity in the first place. Which is basically like FFIV, the game gives you dungeons with gimmicks that are suited for the current party you have. It's not bad design, but it's definitely the less interesting approach to me.

Still curious how the expert grid plays out though.

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KanzarisKelshen
05/29/23 10:27:52 AM
#404:


The exception to that is that Tidus can steal Wakka's niche with a bit of Luck + Acc grinding

But then again, crossmixing Tidus and Wakka is just, easy and common sense because it makes both of them just way more powerful, so no reason not to do it given they will be your damage dealers in endgame anyways.

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MZero
05/29/23 10:36:13 AM
#405:


TomNook7 posted...
To add to the sphere grid convo - even if you could move characters from one grid to the next early on, is there even any incentive to do it? Like why turn Tidus into a black mage when now all of a sudden you cant hit wolves? Youd just be losing a valuable tool for the sake of having two black mages.

One of my favorites is sending Yuna down Wakka/Auron's path to get tons of Strength, which gives the Aeon's tons of Strength in turn. Bahamut starts with Break Damage Limit and a move that hits all enemies, so you can one shot most battles

pjbasis posted...
That's a good point, the game is very heavy handed with its design so that you basically just have to "match the colors/shapes" for most battles, really deincentivizing creativity in the first place. Which is basically like FFIV, the game gives you dungeons with gimmicks that are suited for the current party you have. It's not bad design, but it's definitely the less interesting approach to me.

Still curious how the expert grid plays out though.

You don't really have to, you can beat them game only using one character and sticking to theie own grid.

Like, of course there's an optimal way to play, that's always going to be the case. But FFX has tons of room for creativity thanks to the Sphere Grid, weapon and armor customization, steal and use, etc. Sure you can kill a Water Elemental using Thunder with Lulu like the game tells you, or you can summon Ixion, use a weapon with Lihhtningstrike, throw a Lightning gem at it, hit it with a stonestrike weapon, etc. and once you get Rikku and Mix there's a whole new set of possibilities

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Mr_Crispy
05/29/23 10:39:42 AM
#406:


FFT isn't as bad about overpowered characters as Aedis Eclipse, where near the start on all the routes it gives you with minimum effort multiple secret characters with ridiculous stats and equipment that can practically solo the rest of the game by spamming their special attacks (only really struggling with oversized boss units, which go down fairly easily to one of the other secret characters who has units with ranged attacks, provided that you attack the boss at night because they're undead). One of these has an accessory that gives him double movement range... which you can unequip after he's done moving and put on another unit. There's several mid-late game maps where you can just walk over and capture the enemy base on the first turn because you have the extra movement range.

Hilariously, the secret characters who join later in the game are so much weaker than the ones who join early I never even bothered using them.

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redrocket
05/29/23 10:40:50 AM
#407:


KanzarisKelshen posted...
Largely because a ton of classes are straight up nonfunctional. Imagine thinking 'oh I should get a few ranged attackers, I know! I'll train archers and black mages! :D' and then your team is just trash for a very long time

Archers and Black Mages are not nonfunctional they just require more finesse than team McMonk. Which yes, new players may lack, but thats a matter of simple experience much more than having a masters level understanding of battle mechanics.

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TomNook7
05/29/23 10:41:51 AM
#408:


MZero posted...
One of my favorites is sending Yuna down Wakka/Auron's path to get tons of Strength, which gives the Aeon's tons of Strength in turn. Bahamut starts with Break Damage Limit and a move that hits all enemies, so you can one shot most battles

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/2/3/AAK53VAAEhT_.jpg

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Isquen
05/29/23 10:45:30 AM
#409:


Swole Yuna is just a joy to be around, but some of the most fun I had in that game was swerving Lulu into Auron after the -ra spells and turning her into a dodge tank with decently hard-hitting dolls.

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pjbasis
05/29/23 11:02:14 AM
#410:


MZero posted...
Like, of course there's an optimal way to play, that's always going to be the case.

In the games I'm talking about I don't think that's actually true. FF7 doesn't give you materia that "just works" against all enemies. You're already making a decision based on trading magic vs physical stats, or you're actively choosing which materia to put ap into (since you only have so many spaces, and this creates a sense of commitment). It does take a while before you get enough materia to actually put together creative combos, but even small early choices are nice to make.

I'm not saying there isn't any creativity possibility, which does differentiate itself from FFIV, but it's really buried compared to most entries in the series. Like an open world game that technically has freedom, but if you follow the big arrow on the screen, not only will you be fine, but you will never even feel like you missed out on anything. I think most FF games you will start to feel the strain of not paying attention to the things you can do by the end. Maybe FFX is just too easy?

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TomNook7
05/29/23 11:15:07 AM
#411:


I definitely wouldnt call FFX easy lol. Some of those mobs/bosses can curb stomp you if you arent paying attention

I think a game can still have a lot of strategic depth without giving in to 100% player freedom. Like, I love the massive amount of characters in FF6, but sometimes its nice to have FF4 place limitations on my party, and for me to have to figure out how to work through those limitations. I dont really think theres a right or wrong answer on this, and really it all comes down to preference

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Not_an_Owl
05/29/23 11:38:04 AM
#412:


redrocket posted...
Archers and Black Mages are not nonfunctional they just require more finesse than team McMonk. Which yes, new players may lack, but thats a matter of simple experience much more than having a masters level understanding of battle mechanics.
Not only that, you can make both jobs quite powerful using nothing but abilities from their own skillsets! All a Black Mage needs is the level 2 spells and Magic Attack Up, maybe Flare if you're feeling spicy, and you have a walking nuke that is viable all the way to endgame (so long as they have halfway decent Faith). Meanwhile, Archers are quite happy with Concentrate and the lower level Charges. They're a bit dependent on equipment, but the game practically throws Ultimus Bows at you by the time you're at end of third chapter levels, and even if you don't get one the Gastrafitis is a very powerful option available from shops soon after that.

Really, the fact that a job is less powerful than Orlandu, or a min/maxed Ninja, or a freaking Calculator is not a sign that the job is nonfunctional - it's just not as good as the truly broken shit in the game, which is hardly an indictment. Not everything can be the best.

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KanzarisKelshen
05/29/23 1:01:51 PM
#413:


redrocket posted...
Largely because a ton of classes are straight up nonfunctional. Imagine thinking 'oh I should get a few ranged attackers, I know! I'll train archers and black mages! :D' and then your team is just trash for a very long time

Archers and Black Mages are not nonfunctional they just require more finesse than team McMonk. Which yes, new players may lack, but thats a matter of simple experience much more than having a masters level understanding of battle mechanics.

Archers have a totally nonfunctional skill kit. Tell me Charge X is good with a straight face. Or that Black Mage doesn't legitimately just get weaker over time as you unlock rank 3 and 4 spells thinking they'll be good when they end up being terrible.

Like...can these be made to work? Absolutely. But not in any way that a newbie player would think to try, is the thing (like how Owl was talking about sticking with rank 2s and then subbing them out for only Flare. That's...not how a new player is going to think about things at all). They're highly unintuitive classes that will just make your team weaker if you try to use them 'as intended'.

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Not_an_Owl
05/29/23 1:40:04 PM
#414:


KanzarisKelshen posted...
Archers have a totally nonfunctional skill kit. Tell me Charge X is good with a straight face. Or that Black Mage doesn't legitimately just get weaker over time as you unlock rank 3 and 4 spells thinking they'll be good when they end up being terrible.
Charge is not fantastic; I probably wouldn't stick it on another job. In the context of Archer, however, it's fine. Your Archer is most likely just attacking on the majority of their turns anyway, you might as well cram a little extra damage in wherever you can. Also you're completely discounting R/S/M skills - Speed Save is fantastic, and Concentrate is situational but very nice to have available. As far as Black Magic goes, level 3 and 4 spells are actually fairly functional until mid-chapter 4 and can be extended past that if you're willing to invest in Short Charge.

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notdave
05/29/23 2:00:37 PM
#415:


KanzarisKelshen posted...
What FF5 was once upon a time, Crystal Project is now for a new generation.

wait what is this and is it good

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Fiop
05/29/23 2:14:04 PM
#416:


Black mages are really powerful in FFT, as long as you have a high faith unit, and ideally a female for better MA multiplier. I believe that class has the highest MA in the game, aside from maybe special classes. Level 1/2 spells can do a lot of damage. It's true that level 3's and 4's aren't as good, but if you're checking the CT to time things, it's perfectly serviceable to use a level 3. And once you learn one level 3 and find out it isn't that great, you'll just go back to lower level spells and save JP for Flare. (this is something like what I did my first playthrough, not knowing at all what I was doing)

I think it is a flaw that the more powerful, slower spells and abilities just aren't that good later in the game, when you finally can learn them, due to the fact that the charge time doesn't scale with the user's speed, and everyone's speed value gets higher as you progress. Though, the lower level spells still get enough of a damage boost to be okay. Maybe not the best for taking down those late game bosses, but you have Orlandu and others for that.

Granted, I could see someone not understanding how the system works, and the game doesn't always help with this. Like, understanding faith, and when buying equipment, not using "best fit" all the time, since, for armor, this only takes into account HP and not the often times more important stat boosts you can get (PA, MA, MP, speed).

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KanzarisKelshen
05/30/23 3:08:45 AM
#417:


notdave posted...
wait what is this and is it good

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1637730/Crystal_Project/

tl;dr: FF5 meets Dark Souls type storytelling (ie exploratory and environmental and oblique). It has a lot of exploration, an extremely versatile job system with very distinct classes and tricks you can pull off, and it launched mod support like, last week and people are already salivating at the prospect of making their own classes. I have a friend who's in gamedev who wouldn't stop raving about it and when I tried it I was not let down. It's not a 100% perfect game but it is a true blue successor to FF5 in all the ways that really count.

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pjbasis
05/30/23 4:07:32 AM
#418:


That looks cool

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TomNook7
05/30/23 6:21:12 AM
#419:


#2. Final Fantasy VI

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/3/8/AAK53VAAEhfK.png

FF6 is a masterclass of 16 bit gaming. It's amazing that those machines could make something that looks and plays this good. FF6 is up there with Chrono Trigger, Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Earthbound, Super Mario World, etc. Games that look and play just as good as some of the best modern day indie games. These games aged like fine wine.

I said this earlier in the topic when talking about FF7R: FF6 is fully realized as is. It was never hindered by aging technology, and can stand on it's own without a remake. FF7 is stuck on Ps1 where it's showing it's age, and considering FF7R is more of a spinoff than a remake, it's probably only gonna get worse for FF7 as times goes on. That said... let's face it - FF6 is probably the best game in the series.

A whopping 14 party members, one of the best villains in gaming history, an entire opera scene sung entirely in 16 bit, and oh yeah - you can straight up fucking break this game

So yeah, I'm the odd man out who actually likes Gau. He was my main protagonist, and man, learning enemy moves on the Veldt was insane. I believe the one that really broke the game was called Nightshade? They can confuse the enemy and make them attack themselves. Well guess what - it works on most bosses. If I recall correctly, it even worked on the final boss.

It's been a long time, so it's hard for me to remember exactly - but I believe I also had Celes and Terra having some crazy setup that let them cast Ultima like four times a turn for free. And of course fourth slot went to Edgar who would chainsaw anything left standing.

Man I forgot about the chainsaw and hockey mask until just now. This game had everything. Ya know what, I'm just gonna start listing stuff: Sabin using Street Fighter inputs to suplex a ghost train, Cyan's town getting it's water supply poisoned, Shadow and Interceptor, ULTROS, the villain wins and the entire world gets destroyed, an Esper system that lets you customize your dudes... the list is endless.

So yeah, if this game ain't a 10, then I don't know what is.

The ranking so far
#2. FF6 - 10
#3. FFT - 10
#4. FFX - 9.5
#5. FF4 - 9.4
#6. FF9 - 9.3
#7. FF5 - 9.0
#8. FF14 HW - 9.0
#9. FF8 - 8.8
#10. FFX-2 - 8.5
#11. FF12 - 8.4
#12. FF14 ARR - 8.4
#13. FF11 - 8.4
#14. FF1 - 8.3
#15. FF7R - 8.2
#16. FF15 - 8.0
#17. DoC FF7 - 6.0
#18. FF2 - 5.0
#19. FF13 - 3.0

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colliding
05/30/23 11:06:17 AM
#420:


Yeah FFVI is a perfect game to me.

Nice to see FFXII: Radiant Wings got first place though!

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MartinFF7
05/30/23 11:57:06 AM
#421:


TomNook7 posted...
FF7 is stuck on Ps1 where it's showing it's age

I disagree!!! But looking forward to seeing the writeup for it regardless.

Actually I'm interested in seeing how it'll come across in Ever Crisis which has billed itself as being a more authentic retelling of the original game, but I feel like they're still going to take some serious liberties there...

TomNook7 posted...
FF6 is fully realized as is. It was never hindered by aging technology, and can stand on it's own without a remake.

Also agree with this but still, a FF6 remake seems like a slam dunk decision, either 2-parter with the obvious split point or 3-parter if there's enough World of Balance content to sustain two full games, I can't recall; or alternatively if they do some 7R stretching of some segment(s). Maybe not a money-printer move like 7R was but it would be pretty awesome. Maybe someday!
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TomNook7
05/30/23 1:04:58 PM
#422:


who says FF7 is #1?

colliding posted...
Nice to see FFXII: Radiant Wings got first place though!


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redrocket
05/30/23 1:31:36 PM
#423:


Final Fantasy Mystic Quest your time has finally come.

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MartinFF7
05/30/23 1:38:38 PM
#424:


Lightning Returns putting 13 trilogy as worst & first
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TomNook
05/30/23 3:35:56 PM
#425:


Any username with a 7 stands for Final Fantasy 7.

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WhiteLens
05/30/23 4:01:19 PM
#426:


Must be Final Fantasy VII The First Soldier since he's just that much of a fan Battle Royales and is super sad it shutdown early this year.

He's also looking at ways to free Yuji Naka from prison.

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TomNook7
05/30/23 4:01:37 PM
#427:


TomNook posted...
Any username with a 7 stands for Final Fantasy 7.

Can you just fight me in Smash for your account now please

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TomNook7
05/31/23 7:50:23 PM
#428:


So yeah. Just like the final act of any good FF game, this is the part where everything becomes nonsense, and we all collectively suspend our disbelief:

#1. Final Fantasy VII

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/9/1/1/AAK53VAAEhxf.jpg

I mentioned earlier that FF6 is basically a perfect game, and it's aged better than FF7, and therefor is probably the best game in the series.

But this is my list, and FF7 is my Citizen Kane rosebud. This is what happens when Anton Ego eats ratatouille. The OG FF7 is my comfort food. It was my first JRPG, and to this day Im still playing old skool JRPGs trying to chase that high.

Even so much as just hearing the music instantly takes me back to that point in time. I actually make it a point not to listen to this games soundtrack too often, ya know - just to savor it.

But heres the thing - Ill be the first to admit FF7 isnt a 10 anymore. Back then, sure. But by todays standards? Maybe like a low 9, high 8? It leaned heavily on Rule of Cool, but what's cool changes over a few decades and isnt timeless. Dialogue was notably bad in some areas, even for the time, but only worse now with better standards. Characters, combat, pacing, worldbuilding and most of the story are still pretty solid with various minor issues here and there.

The materia system is amazing, and its cool you can turn off random encounters in the remaster, which I didnt know until just now. But also Im gonna come at chocobo breeding: shit was tedious and esoteric, which could be fine if it didn't lock out the best transport in the game that's required to access most cool late-game quests. So yeah, I think 8.9 is fair by modern standards. (We can't let it be exactly on par with FF8 now can we?)

But for my personal list, FF7 sits at the top. There's a reason why its so iconic, and why it got a gazillion spinoffs (they should really just call the remake FF7 Spinoff. Also I will never not be salty about this. If you like FF7R, then I'm sorry, and you deserve to be happy. Go live your life!)

So yeah, thanks for sitting through this list just to get to such a predictable outcome. Like yeah okay, FF6 and 7 are the best in the series, what else is new? Thanks grandpa.

The Final Ranking
#1. FF7 - 10
#2. FF6 - 10
#3. FFT - 10
#4. FFX - 9.5
#5. FF4 - 9.4
#6. FF9 - 9.3
#7. FF5 - 9.0
#8. FF14 HW - 9.0
#9. FF8 - 8.8
#10. FFX-2 - 8.5
#11. FF12 - 8.4
#12. FF14 ARR - 8.4
#13. FF11 - 8.4
#14. FF1 - 8.3
#15. FF7R - 8.2
#16. FF15 - 8.0
#17. DoC FF7 - 6.0
#18. FF2 - 5.0
#19. FF13 - 3.0

So yeah, this was actually pretty cathartic for me, getting all this into words. I haven't been enthusiastic about this series in a long time, but ya know, I might finally feel something again. I might actually be excited for FF16 now, who knows. Im always gonna miss the old skool menu-based combat, but I hear the Devil May Cry guy is working on 16, so well see. Just gonna try to stay optimistic and open minded.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/9/1/2/AAK53VAAEhxg.jpg

So far this year I've played through Heavensward, FFX-2, FF1 on NES, and FF5 Pixel Remaster, and every single one of those gave me a new perspective on the series in their own way. Like damn, this truly is a series grounded in history and appreciation for what came before. I wanted to play through FF3 as well, but I don't think Ill have time with Tears of the Kingdom happening right now and all.

Ill definitely return to this ranking someday, but for now, we can let this topic purge, and thanks for sticking around till it was done. I genuinely appreciated you guyss insights throughout this entire journey. And when I do eventually return to this series, you all will be the first to know.

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trdl23
05/31/23 8:52:57 PM
#429:


It's been a great read. Thanks for making it!

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MZero
05/31/23 9:07:51 PM
#430:


I always appreciate when someone can admit something they like isn't the best, but it's their favorite anyway despite it's flaws

Good read and thanks for doing this!

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pjbasis
06/01/23 3:07:54 AM
#431:


TomNook7 posted...
(We can't let it be exactly on par with FF8 now can we?)

Hearye hearye

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colliding
06/01/23 4:31:16 PM
#432:


I think FF7 is still the best of the PSX FF's. I know that's probably not a controversial opinion anywhere besides Board 8 but it just is.

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MacArrowny
06/01/23 7:27:15 PM
#433:


All the PS1 FFs rock. I love all the little magic systems.

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notdave
06/02/23 1:55:11 AM
#434:


KanzarisKelshen posted...
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1637730/Crystal_Project/

tl;dr: FF5 meets Dark Souls type storytelling (ie exploratory and environmental and oblique). It has a lot of exploration, an extremely versatile job system with very distinct classes and tricks you can pull off, and it launched mod support like, last week and people are already salivating at the prospect of making their own classes. I have a friend who's in gamedev who wouldn't stop raving about it and when I tried it I was not let down. It's not a 100% perfect game but it is a true blue successor to FF5 in all the ways that really count.

having a lot of fun with this, thanks!

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ND
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pjbasis
06/02/23 7:12:53 AM
#435:


Nothing wrong with ff7 being your favorite. It's still #2 to me, and I perfectly understand it's magnum opus reputation. 6 too, though I have less history and personal love for it.

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