Board 8 > Just beat Hollow Knight... 8 Good/Bad Takeaways

(+) Yeah! (+)

Without question a Top 4 Metroidvania in my book. I need to let it sink in before I decide whether it's better than SotN, Super, and Dread, but Hollow Knight was incredible and edges out Blasphemous as my favorite indie.

1. HK has the best exploration of any Metroidvania I've played. Whereas most games in the genre encourage you to "beat" an area then return later for bonuses/powerups, HK sends you through areas you're not equipped to explore (the jellyfish section) or not equipped to complete (City of Tears) and creates this "setup/payoff" style of exploration. I love it.
2. I did encounter pacing issues because of not having the slightest hint where the next necessary powerup might be. There were times I went 2+ hours trying to find something hidden in an obscure section of the map that I overlooked. That said, when I did finally discover where I needed to go, it was intensely rewarding.
3. I'm amazed that a Metroidvania map of this size never felt bloated or like it was trying too hard. I beat the game (and some side content) in 27 hours. That's double the length of most long Metroidvanias, yet HK never felt like a slog. Impressive.
4. That said, more Stag Stations/warp points would've been nice.
5. I'm not a fan of sticking save points 1-2 minutes away from a boss. I hate this game design choice in Soulsborne games and I hate it here too. At least the one-way teleport spell takes the sting out of it.
6. The Final Boss was a massive disappointment. I beat the Traitor Lord prior to attempting The Hollow Knight and found Traitor Lord to be a more intense, exciting battle. The Hollow Knight by comparison felt like a cakewalk remix of that fight.
7. Ending was grim and cool with the knight sacrificing himself to protect/preserve the world of Hollownest (or at least that's how I interpreted it). The lore in this game is fantastic, and simple hubs like Dirtmouth and City of Tears contribute so much to the worldbuilding and atmosphere that it's mind-boggling.
8. Greenpath has S-Tier music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWquuWkHVP4

You uh, sound like you didn't actually beat the game, for the record. The Hollow Knight is not the last boss.

And that's without even getting into the DLC adding other new endings.

Yea there's more content.

Fantastic game though.

tcaz2 posted...

You uh, sound like you didn't actually beat the game, for the record. The Hollow Knight is not the last boss.

And that's without even getting into the DLC adding other new endings.

Oh, wow. Glad you mentioned this.

Without getting into spoilers, can you tell me... Do I just return to my completed game file and pick things up from there? Is it like a postgame thing? Or is it a SotN-type thing were I need certain items in my possession before I beat the final boss to get the true ending?

plasmabeam posted...

Oh, wow. Glad you mentioned this.

Without getting into spoilers, can you tell me... Do I just return to my completed game file and pick things up from there? Is it like a postgame thing? Or is it a SotN-type thing were I need certain items in my possession before I beat the final boss to get the true ending?

You can return to your old file.

It is item related, but a lot of the DLC is found by exploring so I would probably just keep looking around and youll eventually find it. The Grimm Troupe for example is awesome.

Thanks. I have a feeling I know what item I need (I have a badge that's half complete)

I wouldn't say that you didn't beat the game, but there are multiple endings and you found the simplest one (not even "worst", necessarily). That being said, if you thought the final boss was too easy oh boy are you in luck

That said, I agree with all your points except 6. Hollow Knight is like a top 3 game for me and I only liked it more and more as I fully explored the world after getting the ending you got. (Though beating some of the DLC challenges is, uh, a fool's errand.)

The last DLC with the boss rushes was the only part of the game where I went Nah, Im good

Yeah I don't think its reasonable to expect people to beat ALL of the DLC and get the Godmaster endings because those are a bit much. You can just Youtube those if you're not into the super hardcore content you have to do to beat them. The Crimson Troupe is good though and fairly reasonable to do.

But I'd say the vanilla true ending is basically required to consider the game 'complete', personally.

Gotta love a classic Castlevania fakeout ending.

Note: you do not, in fact, gotta love em. I hate most of them but actually HK's is done super well!

And yes, adding my agreement about the DLCs. The Grim Troupe is worth attempting but Godhome is a huge pain. I could only bother completing the boss rushes after playing a ton of randomizer and leveling up my skills considerably, and even then it was very rough. Just look up what you're missing whenever you decide to throw in the towel.

plasmabeam posted...

HK has the best exploration of any Metroidvania I've played. Whereas most games in the genre encourage you to "beat" an area then return later for bonuses/powerups, HK sends you through areas you're not equipped to explore (the jellyfish section) or not equipped to complete (City of Tears) and creates this "setup/payoff" style of exploration. I love it.

also yeah HK is my favorite Metroidvania by a long shot and this is a huge reason why. Not only do I just love the visual and sound design of the map, but more than just a maze or obstacle to navigate, many parts of the map feel actively hostile to the player. Deepnest is the biggest example but what you're describing counts too. It makes it extremely satisfying not just for exploration but also for mastering traversal. Cautious traversal is why fresh playthroughs take so long (plus the relatively sparse warp points), but it's really remarkable how much faster game knowledge makes it play.

masterplum posted...

The last DLC with the boss rushes was the only part of the game where I went Nah, Im good

Yeah this
I also kinda gave up on NKG but maybe one day I will attempt it again
White Palace difficulty is overrated though

I didn't want to like it at first (storytelling through item descriptions is dumb), but Hollow knight is by far my favorite in the genre

The only criticism I have is that you pretty much need a guide to find certain items/areas

banananor posted...

I didn't want to like it at first (storytelling through item descriptions is dumb), but Hollow knight is by far my favorite in the genre

The only criticism I have is that you pretty much need a guide to find certain items/areas

True, but I think it did a masterful job of not making those things required and giving you multiple options which made exploring extra and fun.

Unlike say, La Mulana 2 which I wanted to love but then quit in frustration as you needed a guide to find areas and if you didnt use a guide I guess you just wander around aimlessly forever whipping every wall in the game

Pretty good game, but of the Metroidvanias I've played in the last year or so, I think I still prefer Ori 2 and Metroid Dread to it.

masterplum posted...

True, but I think it did a masterful job of not making those things required and giving you multiple options which made exploring extra and fun.

Unlike say, La Mulana 2 which I wanted to love but then quit in frustration as you needed a guide to find areas and if you didnt use a guide I guess you just wander around aimlessly forever whipping every wall in the game

agreed, and that (LM2) sounds terrible!

Funny, I just rebeat Hollow Knight and it absolutely is still a masterpiece in my book. First time ever getting 112%! My first file is stuck at a 111% because I couldn't beat the fourth pantheon. Now I've finally done it.

You'll...see what we're talking about eventually with Godhome. I absolutely love it because the bosses are so perfectly designed. Godhome has probably become my favorite part of the game, though it's a polar opposite experience from the atmospheric exploration of the main game. For now, I think you'll enjoy the real final boss when you get to it. Had the same exact feeling of disappointment, only to end up loving the fakeout and the brilliant final boss in the end.

So onto way later stuff, has anybody here beaten the Pantheon of Hallownest? What a monstrous gauntlet. I can finally beat NKG pretty regularly in the Hall of the Gods, but have yet to beat him in the Pantheon. Nerves are so high. But I am entirely determined to at least see Absolute Radiance. Really cool getting to these final parts of the post-game I never did until now. Finally beating the fourth pantheon three years later was one of the most satisfying experiences I've ever had in a game.

Oh hell yeah we get to see TC experience the actual final act of HK. Amazing game, I fell in love with it very early and only got more and more satisfied as it went on.

I never even attempted the final pantheon, I am not nearly good enough at the combat to do that stuff.

it's not La-Mulana 2's fault if your notes aren't good enough tbqh

plasmabeam posted...

HK has the best exploration of any Metroidvania I've played. Whereas most games in the genre encourage you to "beat" an area then return later for bonuses/powerups, HK sends you through areas you're not equipped to explore (the jellyfish section) or not equipped to complete (City of Tears) and creates this "setup/payoff" style of exploration. I love it.

I'm amazed that a Metroidvania map of this size never felt bloated or like it was trying too hard. I beat the game (and some side content) in 27 hours. That's double the length of most long Metroidvanias, yet HK never felt like a slog. Impressive.

this is the exact opposite of how I felt - the dearth of stag stations made getting anywhere feel awful to me and I ended up falling off a bit over 10 hours in

StartTheMachine posted...

So onto way later stuff, has anybody here beaten the Pantheon of Hallownest? What a monstrous gauntlet. I can finally beat NKG pretty regularly in the Hall of the Gods, but have yet to beat him in the Pantheon. Nerves are so high. But I am entirely determined to at least see Absolute Radiance. Really cool getting to these final parts of the post-game I never did until now. Finally beating the fourth pantheon three years later was one of the most satisfying experiences I've ever had in a game.

I spent a long time on it but just couldn't get it done. I can get NKG down but Markoth gets me so often that it gets frustrating.

BlackDra90n posted...

I spent a long time on it but just couldn't get it done. I can get NKG down but Markoth gets me so often that it gets frustrating.

The only thing I hated about that is that you had to fight both forms of all the bosses, like Dung Defender and White Defender, Crystal Guardian and Enraged Guardian, etc. It didn't make it any harder just really tedious because the weaker versions pose no challenge whatsoever if you're at the point of challenging PoH

Question about all the DLC like Crimson Troupe and whatnot... Am I only about to access that after I get past the fakeout ending?

BlackDra90n posted...

I spent a long time on it but just couldn't get it done. I can get NKG down but Markoth gets me so often that it gets frustrating.

Yeah the Markoth fight is the absolute worst. Him and Zote are just too unpredictable.

Aaaaand I just beat NKG in the Pantheon. I finally did it! ....then I lost to Pure Vessel. FML so hard. Been practing NKG so much, I thought PV was way easier once you learn him and was out of practice I suppose. Even had four lifeblood masks from doing the bindings. (First time they were actually useful because they give them to you right before PV.) Man I can't believe I choked that. Time to do it all again for like the 8th time!

plasmabeam posted...

Question about all the DLC like Crimson Troupe and whatnot... Am I only about to access that after I get past the fakeout ending?

I think they can pop up in Dirtmouth pretty early. Like after you kill just one Dreamer. Go explore the Howling Cliffs to start the quest. :)

I beat it recently. Beat everything required for the platinum, which I think is everything.

It was a fun game overall, enjoyed it. Lore and atmosphere was great. Probably not gonna replay it though.

Just played through HK last night. Did a 100% speedrun. Not world class time, but it was all in one sitting. Can't be bothered to 112% the game since I don't enjoy bludgeoning my head on "optional" bosses -- to the extent that I haven't even finished the true ending. Any game that expects me to do so needs to remove the wind-up time to reach said boss, and needing to beat THK first every time definitely is not that.

One of the things that's crazy about Hollow Knight is how Team Cherry absolutely refuses to hold your hand at all, and yet it works. Most of the time when I attempt a game that doesn't give you indication where to go, I just find it frustrating and aimless. (Hi, La-Mulana!) The only time I felt that way with HK was in the opening hours before you get the Mantis Claw, which is, ironically, the only quasi-linear part of the game.

Stag stations not being frequent enough is a common complaint, but with the benefit of hindsight, I don't agree. They're enough to get around without being so close to each other they become superfluous, and they aren't the only mode of transportation in the game. It'd be nice to have a station in Crystal Peak or Kingdom's Edge, but I don't think more than that would enhance the gameplay.

plasmabeam posted...

Thanks. I have a feeling I know what item I need (I have a badge that's half complete)

Chances are, you know exactly what you need to do.

ctesjbuvf posted...

I beat it recently. Beat everything required for the platinum, which I think is everything.

is the platinum different than the achievements on Xbox or something

Because uhhh, some of the achievements are "beat the game in less than 5 hours" and "100% the game in Steel Soul mode" (dying once = erasing your save file). I have 130 hours in this game between my two save files, and there's no way I'll ever get all the achievements lol

E: Also I'm sure there are secret achievements for beating the Pantheon of Hallownest, which honestly might be the hardest thing I've ever attempted in a game

The platinum trophy definitely doesn't have that stuff and you can get it in one playthrough. It's essentially "beat all the content", which includes all the pantheons.

The PS trophies cut out a lot of Xbox achievements. Like I think it draws from the same pool but is only about 1/3rd of them.

I've beaten the Pantheon of Hallownest but like I said only after leveling up my skills considerably with rando tricks. Really the biggest hassle with it is that it's so time consuming and until you get to the final tier, the fights themselves aren't really too difficult. And you can be strategic about it, Markoth for example it's very easy to go into his fight with high Soul and scream him to death. It just sucks to lose 20-30 minutes of progress because you get punked by Grey Prince Zote or Pure Vessel at the very end.

I only ever made it to the final fight twice. Died the first time, practiced it a bit in the practice room, and killed it the second time I managed to get there. It really is that timesink of a gauntlet that gets you.

The biggest tip I can give about combat in HK is to slap on Shaman Stone and abuse the hell out of spells. Dive especially gives a shitload of iframes, it is secretly a dodge that also deals a ton of damage. It's the biggest thing most people never picked up casually and it radically alters how you approach combat in this game

3 tries in on the Pantheon of Hallownest today and I did it! By that I mean I got to Absolute Radiance. Obviously wasn't gonna win that one first try! That said, I beat her on like my fourth try in practice mode. Very surprising - I expected something harder from everything I've heard! No doubt it's totally nuts, but I'd heard it was 6 phases and it's really more like 3. There are technically 6 only due to slight variations. Still think NKG is much worse tbh, mostly just because a few specific attacks that he has. Like...NKG took me 4 hours to beat my first time through in the main game (well, DLC but within the main game, you know what I mean). Secret extra final boss took me 20 minutes. Now to do it in the pantheon!

I'm done for the day, but I'll spend a loooong time practicing the extra final boss and probably have this thing conquered soon enough.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

The biggest tip I can give about combat in HK is to slap on Shaman Stone and abuse the hell out of spells. Dive especially gives a shitload of iframes, it is secretly a dodge that also deals a ton of damage. It's the biggest thing most people never picked up casually and it radically alters how you approach combat in this game

Yep, since Godhome I've learned to use spells way more frequently, and a Spell Twister + Shaman Stone (+ Quick Nail if you fancy) build is pretty overpowered for damage output. That said, there's too many charms I like more than Shaman Stone to use it very often. 3 charm notches is too much! But I have learned to use spells a whole lot now anyway, where yeah, I rarely bothered before.

StartTheMachine posted...

is the platinum different than the achievements on Xbox or something

Because uhhh, some of the achievements are "beat the game in less than 5 hours" and "100% the game in Steel Soul mode" (dying once = erasing your save file). I have 130 hours in this game between my two save files, and there's no way I'll ever get all the achievements lol

E: Also I'm sure there are secret achievements for beating the Pantheon of Hallownest, which honestly might be the hardest thing I've ever attempted in a game

Yeah, the hardest one is beating the final pantheon. There are not the ones you mentioned, I would not have bothered with those.

Makes sense then. Now that I'm so practiced the final pantheon is honestly not near as daunting.

Kenri posted...

The PS trophies cut out a lot of Xbox achievements. Like I think it draws from the same pool but is only about 1/3rd of them.

Is this true across most games, or just HK?

StartTheMachine posted...

Because uhhh, some of the achievements are "beat the game in less than 5 hours" and "100% the game in Steel Soul mode" (dying once = erasing your save file). I have 130 hours in this game between my two save files, and there's no way I'll ever get all the achievements

I've done them both, and I've never even attempted Godhome. If you've beaten the game once, you can beat the game quickly. I'll share my route if you need.

azuarc posted...

Is this true across most games, or just HK?

Just HK as far as I know but someone with more experience trophy/achievement hunting across the two consoles might be able to give a more authoritative answer.

I think they're pretty often identical yeah.

I know they cut an achievement from The Messenger DLC for PS, I'm guessing it happens a fair amount.

But back on topic, yeah the DLC access is independent of reaching the ending. Much of the DLC is QoL improvements, new charms, optional bosses scattered around etc so it's pretty baked into the game anyway.

StartTheMachine posted...

Yep, since Godhome I've learned to use spells way more frequently, and a Spell Twister + Shaman Stone (+ Quick Nail if you fancy) build is pretty overpowered for damage output. That said, there's too many charms I like more than Shaman Stone to use it very often. 3 charm notches is too much! But I have learned to use spells a whole lot now anyway, where yeah, I rarely bothered before.

My charm loadout is pretty basic honestly. Fragile Strength + Shaman Stone + Quick Slash + Fragile Heart. Simple and effective DPS and survival. Switch out Heart for Dashmaster if I'm running around.

Actually one of my few complaints with the game is that the charm system is pretty cool, there's some neat combinations, but they're all pretty undertuned compared to the simple damage boosting ones.

My old save is 107%, that was before the last DLC came out so never played that. That was everything at the time right? Think I'll start a replay because damn this game is incredible

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

My charm loadout is pretty basic honestly. Fragile Strength + Shaman Stone + Quick Slash + Fragile Heart. Simple and effective DPS and survival. Switch out Heart for Dashmaster if I'm running around.

Actually one of my few complaints with the game is that the charm system is pretty cool, there's some neat combinations, but they're all pretty undertuned compared to the simple damage boosting ones.

I just wanted more charm slots. I feel like pantheons 3 and 4 awarding a charm notch each would have been pretty cool.

Finally got back to HK and discovered the White Palace area last night. Holy buzzsaws, Batman!

Really digging the challenging platforming segments. Just wish some of the navigation wasn't such a headscratcher.

God, I hated that area. I'd heard about a "Path of Pain" which is an optional, extremely difficult platforming section. I could have sworn I was on it, but nope, just a regular part of intended progression

For platformer aficionados path of pain was one of the best parts of the game