Current Events > Lia Thomas BANNED as FINA votes to restrict transgender women from competitions

(+) Yeah! (+)

CasualGuy posted...

The goal should be to get them proper treatment so that trans girls can transition before puberty and have a better shot of being fair competition for ciswomen

Exactly! But that would require people to actually give a damn about fairness, or what's best for anyone.

Good.
Of course this announcement gets mass cheer except on CE.

Tenaku posted...

involving refusal to accept compromises

There are none to be made.

-BrokenSpiral- posted...

Good.
Of course this announcement gets mass cheer except on CE.

I grieve for you, since this is apparently the best online community you're a part of.

The thing is that sports are something we made up. Like the boogeyman, or fiat money. People determined the rules, the regulations of play, and the way we discriminate between different skill groups.

The men/women separation was done out of necessity, prejudice, and convenience for the time it was implemented. But the distinction is completely arbitrary. We also used to separate white people and black people in the US sports, and there were plenty of (bullshit) reasons people gave for that segregation.

History tells us that as new information becomes mainstream and beliefs change as a result, society trends towards inclusivity and the benefit of more and more groups of people. Trans people in sports is another dot on the historical graph towards justice and acceptance. It's inevitable.

How and when we see that develop is, for the most part, unknown. Perhaps we eventually will allow people to transition early enough that any puberty-related advantage disappears. Perhaps we redefine the borders of sports such that competitors are grouped around opponents of more similar relative skill based on previous feats instead of gender.

Perhaps right now the perceived problem is so fucking benign that any action taken against trans athletes is simply thinly veiled transphobia instead of an actual appeal to fairness in sports used by bigots who are on their last limb when it comes to oppressing a group that simply wants to exist.

-BrokenSpiral- posted...

Good.
Of course this announcement gets mass cheer except on CE.

"Support X, but only if you're the correct type of X!"

Disingenuous faux-virtue (especially for clout's sake) is even more disgusting than actual bigotry; at least the latter are honest.

Just to update the story, more organizations have hopped on board.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/61865789

Lord Coe of World Athletics is implying changes to transgender inclusion soon.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-league/61875651

Rugby has just flat out banned trans women "until they're able to update their inclusion policy".

In short, there are multiple sporting groups that were just waiting for someone else to fire the first shot before they joined in.

I just cannot see how anyone has an issue with this.

Kalavinka posted...

"Support X, but only if you're the correct type of X!"

Disingenuous faux-virtue (especially for clout's sake) is even more disgusting than actual bigotry; at least the latter are honest.

Honestly, this.

The right and sensible decision.

Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/5/3/AAXQ7ZAADXGd.jpg

This isn't science. This is parody.

assboobsgames posted...

The right and sensible decision.

Go away

Honestly, I feel it's the cornerstone of bigotry; always frame the group as being a threat to a different group. Most often it'll be "your" group that it will be a threat to.

But if you can make that "threatened" group a marginalized group of their own, you can pit those groups against each other.

-BrokenSpiral- posted...

Good.
Of course this announcement gets mass cheer except on CE.

Well we know most of the world hates LGBTQ+ people and their continued existence.

gunplagirl posted...

Honestly, this.

I was more-or-less agreeing with the guy I quoted. Natal males have clear physical advantages (that puberty further exacerbates) that we natal females do not, and no amount of hormone treatment is going to eliminate those entirely; that isn't transphobia, just thousands of years of evolution working its ways. Whatever the solution to this issue, I do not think it fair that we should bear the brunt of it.

That your American right-wing is using this issue in a disingenuous manner does not, and should not, automatically invalidate our concerns.

(Although I doubt the usual crowdwho revel in being disingenuous and tossing aside those of us they don't like as "inconvenient"will listen to any of this.)

Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

Probably one of those countries where you get jailed for saying politically incorrect things online

Wrong. Try again.

There is no doctor worth their salt that would recommend or complete a full transition for someone before they reach age 12. And no country where it would be legal. It's barely legal for trans people to exist in most of the world.

This is an effective ban in America, and it's insane how few people have empathy for the human rights of at-risk minorities. Some swimming events not being won by cis women is not more important than the fight for LGBTQ rights and I will not be gaslit that this issue can be separated from the larger agenda to silence the LGBTQ community.

Kalavinka posted...

I was more-or-less agreeing with the guy I quoted. Natal males have clear physical advantages (that puberty further exacerbates) that we natal females do not, and no amount of hormone treatment is going to eliminate those entirely; that isn't transphobia, just thousands of years of evolution working its ways. Whatever the solution to this issue, I do not think it fair that we should bear the brunt of it.

That your American right-wing is using this issue in a disingenuous manner does not, and should not, automatically invalidate our concerns.

(Although I doubt the usual crowdwho revel in being disingenuous and tossing aside those of us they don't like as "inconvenient"will listen to any of this.)

It actually does invalidate the concerns. You give the American right an inch and they'll take a mile. We might be 2 years from LGBTQ people being officially made second-class citizens. Giving the GOP a win because maybe some trans women will will some sporting events is short-sighted. Its validation and ammo for the larger anti-LGBTQ agenda.

Kalavinka posted...

I was more-or-less agreeing with the guy I quoted. Natal males have clear physical advantages (that puberty further exacerbates) that we natal females do not, and no amount of hormone treatment is going to eliminate those entirely; that isn't transphobia, just thousands of years of evolution working its ways. Whatever the solution to this issue, I do not think it fair that we should bear the brunt of it.

That your American right-wing is using this issue in a disingenuous manner does not, and should not, automatically invalidate our concerns.

(Although I doubt the usual crowdwho revel in being disingenuous and tossing aside those of us they don't like as "inconvenient"will listen to any of this.)

Ah yes, a post littered with TERF rhetoric

FaultyCircuitry posted...

Ah yes, a post littered with TERF rhetoric

Such terms have been overused (and misused) to the point of meaninglessness. Newsflashnot every bit of questioning or pointing out information you may not like automatically equals bigotry, or -phobia, or whatever other word you'll probably throw out.

It's just like my initial statement: people like you "support X group, but only the correct type of X", while those of X deemed inconvenient are tossed aside like rubbish.

(And I'm not American, let alone from the northern hemisphere, so I don't care about its domestic politics nor its demagogues.)

MasterVading posted...

So this is how liberty dies

Kalavinka posted...

I was more-or-less agreeing with the guy I quoted. Natal males have clear physical advantages (that puberty further exacerbates) that we natal females do not, and no amount of hormone treatment is going to eliminate those entirely; that isn't transphobia, just thousands of years of evolution working its ways. Whatever the solution to this issue, I do not think it fair that we should bear the brunt of it.

That your American right-wing is using this issue in a disingenuous manner does not, and should not, automatically invalidate our concerns.

(Although I doubt the usual crowdwho revel in being disingenuous and tossing aside those of us they don't like as "inconvenient"will listen to any of this.)

In that case you'd be the pot and the kettle all at once with this bullshit rhetoric.

Kalavinka posted...

Such terms have been overused (and misused) to the point of meaninglessness. Newsflashnot every bit of questioning or pointing out information you may not like automatically equals bigotry, or -phobia, or whatever other word you'll probably throw out.

It's just like my initial statement: people like you "support X group, but only the correct type of X", while those of X deemed inconvenient are tossed aside like rubbish.

(And I'm not American, let alone from the northern hemisphere, so I don't care about its domestic politics nor its demagogues.)

You don't care about trans women either

hockeybub89 posted...

You don't care about trans women either

You don't decide what other people care about.

hockeybub89 posted...

You don't care about trans women either

They're saying we need to toss aside trans women while making it seem like we're ignoring cis women.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

I really don't understand why conservative commentators try to be cute. Why don't they just say "LGBTQ+ people are an abomination and should be shot on sight." Who exactly is the performance art for?

hockeybub89 posted...

I really don't understand why conservative commentators try to be cute. Why don't they just say "LGBTQ+ people are an abomination and should be shot on sight." Who exactly is the performance art for?

I see a comment about competitive soccer, not executing anyone. That was a really wild interpretation.

hockeybub89 posted...

I really don't understand why conservative commentators try to be cute. Who exactly is the performance art for?

They love to act civilized when it suits them. "What no I wasn't saying trans women are just men, I was simply stating a fact." They're tipping their hat to those who think like them while saying such bold faced lies when called on it by claiming plausible deniability.

Kalavinka posted...

I was more-or-less agreeing with the guy I quoted. Natal males have clear physical advantages (that puberty further exacerbates) that we natal females do not, and no amount of hormone treatment is going to eliminate those entirely; that isn't transphobia, just thousands of years of evolution working its ways. Whatever the solution to this issue, I do not think it fair that we should bear the brunt of it.

That your American right-wing is using this issue in a disingenuous manner does not, and should not, automatically invalidate our concerns.

(Although I doubt the usual crowdwho revel in being disingenuous and tossing aside those of us they don't like as "inconvenient"will listen to any of this.)

The thing is, even if there are inherent advantages that a person has based on their sex/puberty/hormones, there's clearly enough precedent to demonstrate that it's not really a problem. Trans women aren't coming out of the woodwork and dominating women's' sports left and right. For every sensationalist news article about a trans woman winning a competition, there are thousands of trans athletes that don't win and whose "biological advantage" isn't called into question.

See, conservatives do this thing where they shine a spotlight on a single hot-button culture war issue and scream that its the end of civilization as we know it for several months. It's a coordinated attack on marginalized groups or beliefs that shoves it into the public discourse wherein there becomes enough outrage that it feeds back into itself. Nobody cared about trans people in sports until reactionaries collectively began to cry about it on cable access news and koch-sponsered youtube channels.

assboobsgames posted...

You don't decide what other people care about.

I'm not. I couldn't give less of a fuck for people that don't care about LGBTQ rights. Why should I respect someone's opinions when they won't respect my rights or my existence?

I just want people to not give a damn what others do. Believe whatever you want. Don't act on it. Tolerance is efficient and requires little extra effort.

I don't know why the right thinks their freedom is under attack if people who aren't them are allowed to live free.

hockeybub89 posted...

I'm not. I couldn't give less of a fuck for people that don't care about LGBTQ rights. Why should I respect someone's opinions when they won't respect my rights or my existence?

I just want people to not give a damn what others do. Believe whatever you want. Don't act on it. Tolerance is efficient and requires little extra effort.

I don't know why the right thinks their freedom is under attack if people who aren't them are allowed to live free.

They consider us an existential threat to their small, self serving worldview. It's small and pleasant and conveniently they decide that anything that isn't naturally there in their world must be a dangerous foreign influence that needs to be removed.

gunplagirl posted...

They love to act civilized when it suits them. "What no I wasn't saying trans women are just men, I was simply stating a fact." They're tipping their hat to those who think like them while saying such bold faced lies when called on it by claiming plausible deniability.

It's very much like "I hate the sin, not the sinner". It's so stupid and insulting to everyone involved.

Transitioning shouldnt even be a requirement. Acknowledgment of them as women shouldnt be contingent on whether they make the hard and sometimes traumatic choice of going under the knife and ingesting of hormones, and not all of them can even afford it. If they are acknowledged as women then they should be allowed to compete.

Also sports isnt about fairness. Theres swimming athletes who dont produce as much lactic acid and they have a biological advantage. Also basketball players that are way taller than others.

Respect Women.

Kalavinka posted...

Such terms have been overused (and misused) to the point of meaninglessness. Newsflashnot every bit of questioning or pointing out information you may not like automatically equals bigotry, or -phobia, or whatever other word you'll probably throw out.

It's just like my initial statement: people like you "support X group, but only the correct type of X", while those of X deemed inconvenient are tossed aside like rubbish.

(And I'm not American, let alone from the northern hemisphere, so I don't care about its domestic politics nor its demagogues.)

Okay. Begone, TERF

hockeybub89 posted...

You don't care about trans women either

I care about those like me first and foremost, ie. natal women (those of the sex geared toward producing female gametes), and so I'm naturally going to view the issue from that lens. Sexual orientation does not in itself affect physical capability and so has nothing to do with this subject. (I don't care who you're attracted to, as long as you aren't being obnoxious about it).

Trans- and intersex people should be treated with dignity (ie. being able to present and live as comfortably as possible), but not coddling at the expense of others (which is what a certain vocal subset seems to want).

Seems to me that it's "natal women" that need the coddling.

It amazes me the overlap in TERF politics and far right politics.

FaultyCircuitry posted...

Seems to me that it's "natal women" that need the coddling.

It amazes me the overlap in TERF politics and far right politics.

They're in bed with the very people who will oppress cis women but as long as they make sure to punish trans women first it's just fine to them. TERFs aren't known for their self awareness or consistency.

Kalavinka posted...

I care about those like me first and foremost, ie. natal women (those of the sex geared toward producing female gametes), and so I'm naturally going to view the issue from that lens. Sexual orientation does not in itself affect physical capability and so has nothing to do with this subject. (I don't care who you're attracted to, as long as you aren't being obnoxious about it).

Trans- and intersex people should be treated with dignity (ie. being able to present and live as comfortably as possible), but not coddling at the expense of others (which is what a certain vocal subset seems to want).

How many trans and intersex lives are you willing to sacrifice so other women don't get beaten in swimming sometimes?

I almost feel sorry for people who get duped into believing tyranny of the minority bullshit.

It's like abortion. No one is forcing you to get an abortion. It really doesn't matter how many female signatures you can get saying they hate it and support banning it. Oppression and restriction aren't cool if some of the targeted group ask for it.

iPhone_7 posted...

Transitioning shouldnt even be a requirement. Acknowledgment of them as women shouldnt be contingent on whether they make the hard and sometimes traumatic choice of going under the knife and ingesting of hormones, and not all of them can even afford it. If they are acknowledged as women then they should be allowed to compete.

Also sports isnt about fairness. Theres swimming athletes who dont produce as much lactic acid and they have a biological advantage. Also basketball players that are way taller than others.

Respect Women.

Then ramp up your activism for women being in the nba.

CyricZ posted...

Honestly, I feel it's the cornerstone of bigotry; always frame the group as being a threat to a different group. Most often it'll be "your" group that it will be a threat to.

It also happens to be the cornerstone of survival. It's easy to forget the origins of this universal instinct in our pampered and decadent modern lifestyles, though.

Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

It also happens to be the cornerstone of survival. It's easy to forget the origins of this universal instinct in our pampered and decadent modern lifestyles, though.

Yeah okay how many people have you made fight to the death for your benefit.

Kalavinka posted...

Such terms have been overused (and misused) to the point of meaninglessness.

tru dat playa. It's weird how terf gets used to describe anyone and everyone critical of a certain perspective, regardless of whether or not they're a radical or a feminist (you know, the other two-thirds of the term)

CyricZ posted...

Yeah okay how many people have you made fight to the death for your benefit.

Idk what that means. I'm talking about ingroup preference, bro.

There's really no winners here and nobody would be happy with any solution

Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

Idk what that means. I'm talking about ingroup preference, bro.

That had nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

Unless you're trying to tell me bigotry is just a way of life and we should embrace it.

hockeybub89 posted...

How many trans and intersex lives are you willing to sacrifice so other women don't get beaten in swimming sometimes?

Also I just want to point out how funny the double narrative that's going on here actually is.

Sports competitions are both completely unimportant and also vital to keeping trans people from being murdered.

Akagami_Shanks posted...

There's really no winners here and nobody would be happy with any solution

Also this. Though they'll maintain that cis women should just be fine with whatever, because of course they themselves have nothing to lose in doing so and everything to gain.