Current Events > Lia Thomas BANNED as FINA votes to restrict transgender women from competitions

(+) Yeah! (+)

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


For the record, he said earlier in the topic

"If we support trans people going through the right puberty, there wouldn't be anything left to argue about, right?"

So he's clearly not transphobic. If you can't/won't answer his argument fine, but don't be that guy.

hockeybub89 posted...

Never play sports again. You're making them choosing between playing sports and being their true selves.

I'm saying to be their true selves, whatever that means, while competing with their own sex.

If what they're always saying is true, that sex and gender are different, then sex should not be so damn consequential to their "true selves".

gmanthebest posted...

Especially the proposal for an open competition

Yah, Im curious how theyre gonna do that. Im not sure about swimming but I know a lot of sports have a womens league and then an open league so maybe thats their plan with swimming?

Guide posted...

A man is still going to be significantly stronger and all around more physically capable than a women of same weight and height, assuming they're training for the same event.

pinky0926 posted...

It's much harder than that. Look at weightlifting records between male and female divisions in same or similar weight classes. You're still looking at a 30-40% performance difference.

This is a horrible situation for all involved, though.

While both of you may be right, it seems like that would be the best option to keep sports politically correct. But, then again, living in 2022 is like being in permanent sensitivity training no matter what the outcome of this is, so what do I know?

Smackems posted...

FINA finna find a

...???

Someone finish this

Foe

SamsungGearS2 posted...

While both of you may be right, it seems like that would be the best option to keep sports politically correct. But, then again, living in 2022 is like being in permanent sensitivity training no matter what the outcome of this is, so what do I know?

You'll drive me to blindness via eyerolling.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


i've literally never said that, and I could take some time to explain why I don't think that. But like I said, "sure thing". Let's just not.

ZMythos posted...

Okay so you don't know what you're talking about. Got it.

If I ended a discussion like this, whatever that makes me, that's what you are. If you wanted to leave with your pride intact, you should have left and not responded at all.

Guide posted...

You'll drive me to blindness via eyerolling.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/7/9/AAcNK5AADXAn.jpg

Smackems posted...

FINA finna find a

...???

Someone finish this

lol

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


He's obviously fine with transwomen in women's sports though, provided they don't have an advantage provided by going through puberty.

I don't really wanna get sucked into this argument but, throwing out transphobe when someone has a legitimate argument is unfair.

gatorsPENSbucs posted...

Yah, Im curious how theyre gonna do that. Im not sure about swimming but I know a lot of sports have a womens league and then an open league so maybe thats their plan with swimming?

It wouldn't really solve the problem, as long as you continue to have something called a "womens" league and then attempt to define that league by some physiological proxy, like testosterone or chromosomes or puberty or whatever. It will continue to be seen as a human rights issue.

The whole point of moving forward with the gender identity argument is that you don't specifically need these markers to define someone as a woman.

Tenaku posted...

If I ended a discussion like this, whatever that makes me, that's what you are. If you wanted to leave with your pride intact, you should have left and not responded at all.

You seem to think that intersex women are women while trans women are not.

hockeybub89 posted...

I couldn't reasonably compete in most sports as a kid because of biological disadvantages. No one wept for my hurt feelings.

It was because you were bad at the sport.

LongJohnSilvers posted...

It was because you were bad at the sport.

But how is that fair? Why should my disadvantages prevent me from winning?

Tenaku posted...

I'm saying to be their true selves, whatever that means, while competing with their own sex.

If what they're always saying is true, that sex and gender are different, then sex should not be so damn consequential to their "true selves".

I'm sure a trans high school girl on puberty blockers will have a swell time competing in sports against cis boys. Totally will succeed and never have any problems or get depressed or anything.

You're saying "if true" as if all this stuff isn't proven and that everyone against LGBTQ people isn't demonstrably incorrect on everything.

hockeybub89 posted...

But how is that fair? Why should my disadvantages prevent me from winning?

I'd say it would depend on whether your disadvantages were attempted to be defined in the league you were in.

If you were in competing in the 81kg weightlifting class and a 90kg lifter entered that league and smoked you, you'd have every right to say that they had an unfair advantage. the line (however arbitrary) had been drawn somewhere between those weight classes.

Easily defined with weightclasses, not so much with men and women.

The problem to me seems a result of how difficult it is to define, if anything. Attempts to use testosterone as a proxy have clearly failed.

As someone who is pretty uninformed on the subject and generally tries to stay out of it, can someone point me in the direction of an unbiased source that describes the topic of trans athletes and the complexities involved in the debate?

Wish I could have used the biological disadvantage excuse as a kid playing sports because my eyesight is horrifically bad.

Give them their own category. Let them compete.

DarthAragorn posted...

Wish I could have used the biological disadvantage excuse as a kid playing sports because my eyesight is horrifically bad.

Gotta ban all able-bodied kids to make sure that we can accomodate kids with disabilities like being wheelchair bound. Oh wait, that's right, society as a whole totally forgets that disabled people exist except as an afterthought. :l

AloneIBreak posted...

As someone who is pretty uninformed on the subject and generally tries to stay out of it, can someone point me in the direction of an unbiased source that describes the topic of trans athletes and the complexities involved in the debate?

It's hard to define a source as unbiased when the subject matter is so heated (even being "on the fence" is seen as picking a side).

I quite like some of Ross Tucker (science of sports podcast) early articles on it. He was someone who was on the legal defense of Caster Semenya when the IOC tried to ban her, and yet he sees the trans issue as a different and more complex one. I'm less a fan of some of the stuff he's been writing in the last year or two, though.

Joanna Harper is a trans ex athlete and now scientist, someone who can give you a more informed take from the other perspective.

Here's the two of them together, discussing caster semenya. It is a different issue, but touches on some of the same ground: https://sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/

Another article more specifically about transgender athletes. Covers some of the black and white, the grey, and the opinion: https://sportsscientists.com/2019/03/on-transgender-athletes-and-performance-advantages/

MI4 REAL posted...

Give them their own category. Let them compete.

Again, this assures they cannot compete, and doubles as reinforcing harmful beliefs against their validity as humans.

I thought we ended segregation a while ago.

hockeybub89 posted...

But how is that fair? Why should my disadvantages prevent me from winning?

This is an argument against competition existing, not an argument for adjusted competition parameters.

hockeybub89 posted...

Again, this assures they cannot compete, and doubles as reinforcing harmful beliefs against their validity as humans.

I thought we ended segregation a while ago.

We never ended segregation, they just started labeling it differently to justify exclusion

Guide posted...

This is an argument against competition existing, not an argument for adjusted competition parameters.

But people are losing because others have biological advantages, which is unfair. Why does that only apply at the chromosome level? All males or all females are not equal and most successful professionals hit a genetic lottery.

hockeybub89 posted...

But people are losing because others have biological advantages, which is unfair. Why does that only apply at the chromosome level? All males or all females are not equal and most successful professionals hit a genetic lottery.

You're right, but the logical end goal here is to either do away with divisions, or create more for all the possible advantages.

The better question is, why do we have sports divisions at all? Why for some things ans not others? What are we looking to achieve by discriminating (because it always is a form of discrimination).

My best guess: we make them because we want to see a certain "class" of person compete where they otherwise couldn't, like for like. Whether that's weight or sex or skill or age.

But yes you're right- its arbitrary. We have weighted fighting sports but not heighten basketball. Maybe we should, if people cared enough to watch short people basketball.

ZMythos posted...

You seem to think that intersex women are women while trans women are not.

So what do YOU think?

hockeybub89 posted...

I'm sure a trans high school girl on puberty blockers will have a swell time competing in sports against cis boys. Totally will succeed and never have any problems or get depressed or anything.

Tell that to a high school cis boy who's sufficiently weak enough that his only hope to succeed is to compete with the girls.

Tenaku posted...

So what do YOU think?

That intersex women trans women are both women.

Making the age cutoff 12 is so ridiculously arbitrary since "transition" isn't a one and done thing. Do they have to be on puberty blockers by 12? Started HRT? Had surgery? Transition is an ongoing process, but I'm sure they're not accounting for that since this is a knee jerk reaction to the current political climate

Gwynevere posted...

Making the age cutoff 12 is so ridiculously arbitrary since "transition" isn't a one and done thing. Do they have to be on puberty blockers by 12? Started HRT? Had surgery? Transition is an ongoing process, but I'm sure they're not accounting for that since this is a knee jerk reaction to the current political climate

They were actually quite specific in the release of their policy. It has to be before 12 years old or onset of Tanner Stage 2 of puberty, whichever comes later, and it's about starting hormone blocking treatment.

Does that make this a good thing? No, not really.

Respect women.

ZMythos posted...

That intersex women trans women are both women.

What is a "woman"?

Tenaku posted...

What is a "woman"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O38k_B7C8_0

https://twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1538567703388164096
Discriminatory and cruel. But then, that's the entire point of this ruling.

Tenaku posted...

What is a "woman"?

A miserable pile of secrets?

Tenaku posted...

Tell that to a high school cis boy who's sufficiently weak enough that his only hope to succeed is to compete with the girls.

Tell them what? Are you implying a boy pretending to be a girl to win at sports?

ArchNemo posted...

For the record, he said earlier in the topic

"If we support trans people going through the right puberty, there wouldn't be anything left to argue about, right?"

So he's clearly not transphobic. If you can't/won't answer his argument fine, but don't be that guy.

Shockthemonkey just makes up shit. It's his forte.

Cancel FINA

CyricZ posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O38k_B7C8_0

150 likes vs 140 dislikes, and comments section locked. But I watched the video anyways, and it was just about what I expected. It did not answer the question.

Thanks for the video anyways.

hockeybub89 posted...

Tell them what? Are you implying a boy pretending to be a girl to win at sports?

Read your own post one more time, then read mine again.

About time.

hockeybub89 posted...

So ban trans people from ever playing sports again. That's what that basically amounts too. I guess fairness doesn't apply to minorities.

You either do that or make it implausible (maybe impossible i some instances) for cis women to win in sports again. Seems the best thing to do as usual is whatever benefits the most people.

Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

You either do that or make it implausible (maybe impossible i some instances) for cis women to win in sports again. Seems the best thing to do as usual is whatever benefits the most people.

What are you even talking about? Ciswomen beat transwomen in competitions all the freaking time.

Tenaku posted...

Read your own post one more time, then read mine again.

You said people should compete with their sex. I said that would be a horrible experience for a trans girl. You responded that I should think about a cis boy who is only strong enough to compete with girls.

I'm being honest. Explain what you are saying.

Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

You either do that or make it implausible (maybe impossible i some instances) for cis women to win in sports again. Seems the best thing to do as usual is whatever benefits the most people.

So allow trans women to compete with other women. Got it.