Current Events > Lia Thomas BANNED as FINA votes to restrict transgender women from competitions

(+) Yeah! (+)

hockeybub89 posted...

You said people should compete with their sex. I said that would be a horrible experience for a trans girl. You responded that I should think about a cis boy who is only strong enough to compete with girls.

I'm being honest. Explain what you are saying.

I previously said:

If what trans activists always say is true, that sex and gender are different, then sex should not be so damn consequential to their "true selves". They can be their "true selves", while competing with the same sex.

Then you brought up the likelihood of a puberty-blocked trans girl to succeed against cis boys. My counter was that it is just as fair as a weak cis boy competing with other cis boys. Being weak does not give him the privilege to compete with the girls instead.

A_Good_Boy posted...

What are you even talking about? Ciswomen beat transwomen in competitions all the freaking time.

hockeybub89 posted...

So allow trans women to compete with other women. Got it.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/5/3/AAXQ7ZAADXGd.jpg

This topic is so

pinky0926 posted...

If you were in competing in the 81kg weightlifting class and a 90kg lifter entered that league and smoked you, you'd have every right to say that they had an unfair advantage. the line (however arbitrary) had been drawn somewhere between those weight classes.

i just want to point out that it's basically standard practice for people competing in weight-class based sports to go on a major fast to drop a class and smoke the competition in that lower class who couldnt quite make it to the next class down

sports are driven by attempts to use the rules as they are written to extract small advantages. the real skill of NFL players is not running extra fast or throwing extra well, but committing pass interference without getting caught.

i think when attempts to enforce 'the rules' start hurting innocent people, we have to step back and ask ourselves a kinda difficult question.

"How important is winning and the perception that my sport is meaningfully competitive? Moreso than the happiness and inclusion of those that love it?"

And I think I wouldn't want to participate in a sport with anyone whose answer to the second question is yes.

ps i don't think you're a transphobe, i think you're trying to emphasize with female athletes.

and i think maybe you and shockthemonkey can agree on some parts of my post.

Sackgurl posted...

"How important is winning and the perception that my sport is meaningfully competitive? Moreso than the happiness and inclusion of those that love it?"

A large part of the love of a sport is the love of winning, though. Competing against people who have an advantage that you can't possibly obtain is kind of counter to that, hence the bans on various forms of doping. NFL guys can learn to commit pass interference in sneakier ways to eek out an advantage, but they can't alter their biology for an advantage.

There's more than just perception, there's also the practical reality athletes have to compete within.

Sackgurl posted...

i just want to point out that it's basically standard practice for people competing in weight-class based sports to go on a major fast to drop a class and smoke the competition in that lower class who couldnt quite make it to the next class down

sports are driven by attempts to use the rules as they are written to extract small advantages. the real skill of NFL players is not running extra fast or throwing extra well, but committing pass interference without getting caught.

i think when attempts to enforce 'the rules' start hurting innocent people, we have to step back and ask ourselves a kinda difficult question.

"How important is winning and the perception that my sport is meaningfully competitive? Moreso than the happiness and inclusion of those that love it?"

And I think I wouldn't want to participate in a sport with anyone whose answer to the second question is yes.

ps i don't think you're a transphobe, i think you're trying to emphasize with female athletes.

and i think maybe you and shockthemonkey can agree on some parts of my post.

I actually agree with all of this. I suppose where the weight class analogy breaks down is that it's very easy to define and measure weight. We have a literal index for it that makes it a cut and dry decision in every case. Not so much with whatever "woman" is supposed to mean, germane to sports.

In your argument here - the problem (if there was one) would lie with the sports governing body to redefine the rules. You can't blame the athlete.

The trouble with sport - almost by definition - is that it is always discriminatory. It's just that it's never seemed so unfair and hurtful before, because now we have an incongruity between how sports wants to discriminate athletes and what we find socially agreeable.

Thank you, also.

What a dicey situation

A_Good_Boy posted...

What are you even talking about? Ciswomen beat transwomen in competitions all the freaking time.

People aren't above just lying to shit on trans people

Tenaku posted...

It did not answer the question.

I'm sure it didn't answer the question the way you wanted it answered.

But it answered it nonetheless. So you have your answer. You just don't accept it.

That's your problem from here out.

CyricZ posted...

I'm sure it didn't answer the question the way you wanted it answered.

But it answered it nonetheless. So you have your answer. You just don't accept it.

That's your problem from here out.

You want to answer the question yourself?

Tenaku posted...

You want to answer the question yourself?

I can quote the video if you like, but what would that serve?

Do you feel my answer will be any different?

Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/5/3/AAXQ7ZAADXGd.jpg

Promote hormone therapy and support trans girls as early as possible. Got it.

Tenaku posted...

I previously said:

If what trans activists always say is true, that sex and gender are different, then sex should not be so damn consequential to their "true selves". They can be their "true selves", while competing with the same sex.

Then you brought up the likelihood of a puberty-blocked trans girl to succeed against cis boys. My counter was that it is just as fair as a weak cis boy competing with other cis boys. Being weak does not give him the privilege to compete with the girls instead.

So you equated a weak boy to a trans girl... and then basically agreed that she would fit in far better with other girls.

We also can't discount the mental anguish and potential for abuse in having someone female-presenting hanging around a bunch of dudes in locker rooms and shit. Same for the inverse. Tell me how comfortable women will be with a trans man competing against them and changing in their locker room.

CyricZ posted...

I can quote the video if you like, but what would that serve?

Do you feel my answer will be any different?

It might make a bigger difference than you think. From my experience, perspectives can change surprisingly when read/typed out. I might find the answer I overlooked, or you might realize it's not as airtight as you originally thought.

It's your choice if you want to paraphrase or copy word for word.

A woman is an adult female human being. "Female" here can refer to gender identity, which is why trans women are women.

Lol.

Tenaku posted...

I previously said:

If what trans activists always say is true, that sex and gender are different, then sex should not be so damn consequential to their "true selves". They can be their "true selves", while competing with the same sex.

Then you brought up the likelihood of a puberty-blocked trans girl to succeed against cis boys. My counter was that it is just as fair as a weak cis boy competing with other cis boys. Being weak does not give him the privilege to compete with the girls instead.

trans women aren't men in any way, trash line of thinking that does nothing but ensure we can be excluded or murdered and it be 'justified'

SamsungGearS2 posted...

Again, base all sports on height or weight divisions, its not that hard.

This would be nice

VG_Study_Lounge posted...

This would be nice

That would be stupid. Basketball without height differences loses a lot of dynamic.

Tenaku posted...

Sex gender

Just divide competitors between sex, have transgenders compete with their own sex. Problem solved.

Except, and heres the thing you miss because you're all in on the "trans women outclass women"
Trans women will not be able to compete with men and women will jot be able to compete with trans men. So congratulations you just said "fuck all women trans and cis" because you want to force trans men to compete with women.

Tenaku posted...

You want to answer the question yourself?

No.

Cyric doesn't answer questions, he just infers shit and expects you to put your own opinion out there so he can twist it into something he can subtly insult.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Can Caitlyn please shut up forever because she's making it a point to be wrong on every possible point.

hockeybub89 posted...

Promote hormone therapy and support trans girls as early as possible. Got it.

So you agree with FINA's new rules here regarding trans athletes. Got it.

FaultyCircuitry posted...

trans women aren't men in any way, trash line of thinking that does nothing but ensure we can be excluded or murdered and it be 'justified'

So the thing that makes transwomen not ok to murder is that they aren't men. Meaning men ARE ok to murder.

Seems like a bad thought imo

I think its cool that, for a hot minute in here, there was legitimate civil discourse.

Rare and commendable.

Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

So the thing that makes transwomen not ok to murder is that they aren't men. Meaning men ARE ok to murder.

Seems like a bad thought imo

shut the fuck up with disingenuous posts like this

Tenaku posted...

What is a "woman"?

A woman is someone who identifies as one.

Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

So you agree with FINA's new rules here regarding trans athletes. Got it.

The rules that they made deliberately impossible for trans girls to follow because they know society still oppresses them?

hockeybub89 posted...

The rules that they made deliberately impossible for trans girls to follow because they know society still oppresses them?

This is conspiratorial horseshit, though.

ZMythos posted...

Question: What power does FINA have over the NCAA?

Fina is worldwide/international competition. Ncaa is american only.

Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

This is conspiratorial horseshit, though.

its not considering trans girls the world over have to fight tooth and fucking nail to get proper medical treatment

they have blatantly decided that trans women don't get to compete

FINA is an illegitimate organization for this

SauI_Goodman posted...

Fina is worldwide/international competition. Ncaa is american only.

OK so how does this specifically affect Lia Thomas? I thought she was a college swimmer?

Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

This is conspiratorial horseshit, though.

Is it? Can trans girls have years of hormone therapy by age 12?

It's like telling someone they can work for you if they have a third arm.

ZMythos posted...

OK so how does this specifically affect Lia Thomas? I thought she was a college swimmer?

Fina has no authority over the ncaa. They only have authority for fina events. The ncaa trans policy is on a sport by sport basis. For swimming it seems they go by horomone levels. If they meet requirements they are allowed to compete.

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/ncaa-wont-adopt-usa-swimming-guidelines-for-transgender-participation-door-open-for-lia-thomas/

SauI_Goodman posted...

Fina has no authority over the ncaa. They only have authority for fina events. The ncaa trans policy is on a sport by sport basis. For swimming it seems they go by horomone levels. If they meet requirements they are allowed to compete.

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/ncaa-wont-adopt-usa-swimming-guidelines-for-transgender-participation-door-open-for-lia-thomas/

Oh yea, I figured that was the case. I'm calling attention to TC and the Article specifically saying she's "BANNED" from competition

hockeybub89 posted...

Is it? Can trans girls have years of hormone therapy by age 12?

2 years is less than 12 years so uh, yes

Any instance where a female that transitions to a male can compete in the highest level of mens sports?

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Yep. I realize that. That's wrong and terrible.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

I did not know she left college.

It seemed to me that the title was sensationalized to the point that it clearly displayed a vendetta against trans people by singling out Thomas instead of simply reporting the decision.

FLAMING EVIL HOMER posted...

Any instance where a female that transitions to a male can compete in the highest level of mens sports?

I'm curious about this too. I'm guessing not many

CyricZ posted...

A woman is an adult female human being. "Female" here can refer to gender identity, which is why trans women are women.

Yeah, that's about the response I remembered from the video, and it said absolutely nothing about women, and now female.

Give me characteristics of woman and female. What do they have that makes me or anybody else certainly one of them, or not one of them? What motivates a person to call herself one?

I also see a few cliched arguments about depression and mental anguish, potential abuse and even murder. I've confronted them before. They just about always lead to rather disingenuous and opportunistic attitudes, involving refusal to accept compromises and alternate solutions, and holding out for all-or-nothing demands.

As for the issue of trans men competing with women, that kind of circles back to an issue I brought up before, but never received a proper response to. Is using testosterone comparable to using steroids? And should it disqualify the user? From women's competitions, or both men's and women's?

Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

I'm curious about this too. I'm guessing not many

FLAMING EVIL HOMER posted...

Any instance where a female that transitions to a male can compete in the highest level of mens sports?

When there are even 1/2 of the cases of trans men competing at the top level of mens sports I'd be much more inclined to believe there is no biological advantage for trans women over cis women.

Has anyone pointed out yet that the president of FINA is buddies with Orban

Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

2 years is less than 12 years so uh, yes

Oh yeah? Which doctors are doing those treatments? In which countries is it legal?

I know people think 5 year olds in America can get their penis cut off if they played with dolls once, but that's not anywhere close to reality.

It's also somewhat silly for me to humor these fairness arguments when we can't ignore the anti-LGBTQ agenda that is amplifying the debate one thousand fold. Pretty interesting how all the polticians against trans women in sports also hate LGBTQ people and think we're a liberal attack on their freedoms.

hockeybub89 posted...

Oh yeah? Which doctors are doing those treatments? In which countries is it legal?

Probably one of those countries where you get jailed for saying politically incorrect things online

It's a shitty situation

Anybody being good faith knows that there is a biological advantage that's more than just testosterone levels. Which is why you never see ftm trans people win any anything serious.

But if you make them compete by themselves, that's basically a 1 person event. And if you make them compete with men that's probably pretty bad for their dysmorphia.

The goal should be to get them proper treatment so that trans girls can transition before puberty and have a better shot of being fair competition for ciswomen