Board 8 > Star Wars and Pokemon Mafia Topic 4 - Red/Green

(+) Yeah! (+)

Town
Plum
Corrik
Isquen
Sultan
Hb
Kirby
Death
Chang
Sbell (dependent on ulti being scum otherwise still ehh)

Scum
Arti
Lea
Ulti (literally in his established scum meta)
Ben

Ehhh

Red
AV
mzero
Jc
Scare

Towers of gold are still too little
These hands could hold the world but it'll
Never be enough

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Also isquen is the second person who didn't read the host that pokemon didnt have aflavor split about mewtwo jesus lol

One of these days I'm going to stop being a careless dumbass. That is not today, apparently.

Good song. So sbell, how similarly are we seeing the game as of 301?

Isquen posted...

One of these days I'm going to stop being a careless dumbass. That is not today, apparently.

I mean it's chill as claiming Miller is a good idea and ulti is in his scum meta so maybe you have a six sense for this stuff between this and lopen lol

Town
Plum - ehh
Corrik - k
Isquen -k
Sultan -k
Hb -k
Kirby - ehh
Death - ehh
Chang - ehh
Sbell (dependent on ulti being scum otherwise still ehh) -k

Scum
Arti - ehh
Lea - k
Ulti (literally in his established scum meta) - k
Ben - mehh

Ehhh

Red - town
AV - ehh
mzero - ehh
Jc - ehh
Scare - ehh

I'd say you are further along than me, but there was A Lot of wall day 1 which didn't get fully absorbed and 2 days off made me lose most of what I had. I need a day 1 reread, I may move some of my ehhs. You are also currently on my town list but I never drop my Chris fear.

wish Han was in this game... could use another scumsuspect.

He is the scum suspect in our hearts.

What do you think of sheep giving Ben town credit for town reading mzero?

DoomTheGyarados posted...

He is the scum suspect in our hearts.

What do you think of sheep giving Ben town credit for town reading mzero?

you'll need to point me to the right place to read through it. again, a lot of day 1 is gone for me and I honestly don't even recall what it was that led me to be on sheep in spirit near end of day.

and my eyes are way too weary on my phone with all the prior research I just did to go back and do a whole read now.

Also with that, it's time to close these eyes.

Electrode, Diglett, Nidoran, Votals
[1] Ben: (Hb), (Ulti), Sultan
[1] Red: Plum
[1] Lea: Arti
[1] Corrik: Ulti, (Isquen)
[1] Ulti: (Isquen), SBell
[1] Chris: (Ulti), Corrik
[1] Arti: Isquen

With 19 alive, it takes 10 votes to reach majority, or else day will end at 7pm EDT on Saturday, roughly 42.6666 hours from now.

Obellisk posted...

you'll need to point me to the right place to read through it. again, a lot of day 1 is gone for me and I honestly don't even recall what it was that led me to be on sheep in spirit near end of day.

and my eyes are way too weary on my phone with all the prior research I just did to go back and do a whole read now.

Topic one post 254 has the start of a series of posts that I would love to get everyone's thoughts on for mzero and Ben as it relates to sheep and how he interacted with them. Also death too I suppose.

Ah shoot I completely forgot the new topic was posted today. Not having it posted yesterday completely threw me off (yes, I know it was stated at the end of day in the last topic; I'm just bad at reading especially while recovering from sickness that thankfully was at its worst during the 48-hour nighttime period).

I'm caught up now, though. Seeing how many role claims have already gone out, I'm not gonna speak on that matter any further because uh... that's a concerning amount of role claims. But yeah, I guess Ben was right about the post that makes Sultan indubitably Town lol
And Hb's scan was useful. Is it normal for games of this size here on B8 to have vanilla Scum? If not, then that's practically a town clear on Abacus.

I agree with Isquen regarding Chris bussing Sheep and how that's not a smart tactic for Scum Chris. Granted, that assumption relies completely on the fact that the scum team knows about their alter ego roles as Pokmon, which I think is a fair assumption especially with regard to the safelist. So I don't think there's any valid conspiracy where Chris is scum here. Intentionally killing the Poisoner before letting them poison would be a gross misstep, even if it meant giving Chris some good town credit.

I'm also willing to believe Ben's claim. Trying to make an "underground secret mason resistance group" or whatever is... such a cheesy and bold tactic that it's totally in-character for Ben. Especially after the stories he told me of his antics in Fire Emblem Mafia (which I presume started this whole masonry meme that I've seen mentioned here and there).

Lea... hasn't said much other than confirming that Sultan slept with her, right? I held off on voting for her yesterday out of respect for Chris, but I don't think I'll hold back today without a good reason.

Those are my immediate thoughts. I'd still like Arti to honor his predecessor by 1v1ing me in the colosseum, but if all is to be believed, then it is clear that he cannot do that anymore. But I'll do a quick skim again to see if I missed anything I wanted to talk about before I turn in for the night.
(In hindsight I should really be keeping track of everything as I go along in Notepad or something!)

htaeD posted...

Okay but you being a prosty makes this question you asked seem very.... weirdly motivated?

Wait yeah hold up did Sultan ever answer this?
Death makes an excellent point here. Although prostitute isn't a true tracker, it gives very similar information. Why would Sultan even entertain the idea of there being three possible town-sided tracking roles?

Also, Ulti, I'm flattered that you and Chris think I'm a good player, but frankly I was hard-carried by my role last game where I could afford to be an arrogant, aggressive little punk just to get the information I selfishly needed. I'm not as full of conviction this game because I have to play fairly now.
Heck, I was about to back off Sheep yesterday and switch my vote to Ben, but I was so late to the party and with catching up that Sheep had already incriminated himself with the tracker claim (which I was willing to entertain as truth, but that just made me want to gamble further on the information it would give). Regarding your post specifically...

UltimaterializerX posted...

I think Ulti should be inspected a bit, because I feel like all he's done is say "x passes/fails the vibe check". But maybe this is in character for him? I don't he was as vibe check-y earlier in the day, so I didn't think he was scummy or out of the ordinary, but now this behavior just seems a tad odd, if I'm remembering correctly.

He had been calling me town all day prior to this. I didn't actually do anything differently that should have made him change his mind, but he magically went to my behavior seeming odd. Hell, he changed his mind multiple times just in that post.

It's fake content and reeks of scum knowing I'm town, letting it slip by mistake too early, then seeing everyone else call me scum and going "oops I need to fit in".

I will be honest, I barely remember your posts from the first game since you died N1 and I could barely keep up with D1. That being said, as I stated in the very post you quoted (perhaps not very clearly), your first couple of posts made me think you were acting ordinarily, so those were okay. Then it just devolved into "vibe check this" and "vibe check that", which struck me as odd since it was noticeably filler compared to your earlier posts in the day (or heck even now). Even then, I wasn't convinced it was a scumtell, hence why I mentioned it passingly just to make sure you didn't fly under the radar. Like you said, I lack conviction, and even if I did hang on to Sheep until the bitter end, I was never confident in my reads without extra information. Not my scum reads, at least.

I think the retrospective on the Mzero-Ben-Sheep interaction will have to wait until tomorrow. I'm too tired and probably missed some other stuff I meant to talk about. I'll be sure to have Notepad open when I revisit this topic in the morning.

Kirby321 posted...

Those are my immediate thoughts. I'd still like Arti to honor his predecessor by 1v1ing me in the colosseum, but if all is to be believed, then it is clear that he cannot do that anymore. But I'll do a quick skim again to see if I missed anything I wanted to talk about before I turn in for the night.
(In hindsight I should really be keeping track of everything as I go along in Notepad or something!)

Never could, in fact. I already stated back in day 1 that Lopen was lying about being a gladiator. And I have no idea why that's somehow insinuating a bodyguard claim so I'm not even sure why Isquen is even voting me.

Kirby321 posted...

Death makes an excellent point here. Although prostitute isn't a true tracker, it gives very similar information. Why would Sultan even entertain the idea of there being three possible town-sided tracking roles?

he also entertained Lea's Princess claim and Lopen's gladiator claim too. Don't read too far into it.

By the way I have something to say tomorrow that I think will make the course of the day clear. I would ask no one else claim anything for the day please. I only say this much because it would be annoying if people felt the need to claim simply because day wasn't immediately decided. Thanks all.

(Vague on purpose. Just keep discussing plenty of scum to catch)

still catching up but

UltimaterializerX posted...

I have a read on him, which is more than enough.

We just got asked nicely by the guy who all think is town not to share a bunch of info.

Ulti this kind of naivety does not fit you, c'mon.

Something is up with Corrik yeah.
I have never seen him be this lazy and unwilling to play before, even for the sake of a joke.
That said I dont believe Corrik really slipped there, though I do understand now why Ulti didnt want to reveal the info.
Not that he loses any naivety points since Ulti accepting that there can be two Mewtwos sounds even dumber.
That said I dont like Chris defending Ulti on principle. Ulti can do his own defending.

I also agree with Sbell that Plum is paranoid on a level that feels forced rather than genuine. It just looked like he missed some logical steps in his train of thought and kept it going regardless.

Doesnt seem like much else happened in my abcense, besides Isquens miller claim which I buy.
Guess its time to read the fine prints

Death I appreciate you, would you like something to read? I should probably wait until later but honestly my insomnia sucks and I do enjoy how you react to things.

Sure!

Ok give me a little bit of time to finish typing, but get hyped!!

Hype

##vote: Ben

I made a decision after the neighbor chat that if I was alive to start the day I would not stifle conversation to a very large degree with these observations because I think sometimes one of my weaknesses as a player is I try to do too much and it leaves a void for when I die of town leadership that scum can sometimes swoop in to cause issues.

Ben is, however, very obviously scum and I am going to walk everyone through the reasons as well as the implications of this for the game.

PunishedBen posted...
If by the force you mean preconceived notions coming into this game - I'll be honest I REALLY wanted to be scum. Specifically scum with you, since I had a fake claim idea for us prepared. And you and me have both been town for all the games since mafia came back. So my bad feeling post was originally about me having a feeling you were gonna end up being scum this time. But if you are coming into the game with that spirit than I will gladly let go of the force. Kill the past! And if "It's a trap!" then consider me foiled.

First off, Ben is a complete smartass as scum and loves to troll and in the sequel movies the other half of the using the force to talk to people from Rey is Kylo Ren. Kill the Past is a quote from Kylo Ren. If I am going for extra credit I think Ben is specifically Kylo Ren and his Pokemon is therefore Stunky for Stunkylo Ren. If this is right I am taking a victory lap in addition to being right about Ben being scum.

Anyway, if I try to quote everything this will be badly formatted so I will just give citations, I hope thats okay.

Topic 1

Ben in #96 says he agrees with Isquen about Corrik. I challenge him as to why he thinks Isquen would have the same perspective as himself, as they have very different levels of experience (I didnt say the second part but is my perspective while asking.)

Ben responds with He agrees that Corrik always does that. Thats the part I agree with. I press further and eventually it turns out that Ben was thinking of Ulti when I made him go look it up and this was entirely fabricated. That was my first note that Ben was off. He tried to cozy up to Isquen by taking his side but he lacked actual genuine foundation. This line of questioning concludes at #113 when I ask him to revisist my original question and he more or less just makes up what Isquen could have been thinking at the time. Ben knows Isquen is town here so he knows to defend him from attacks, but he was not prepared for me to press him in this manner and it shows. This is not the last time a sudden line of questioning from me causes cracks to appear in Bens town charade.

In 128 he posts this, which is not important but I am allowing myself a line of smugness.

PunishedBen posted...
Chris is too Town to be left alive

In 258 Sheep gives Ben town points for mirroring his thoughts. I think this is always a clear for Mzero when Ben flips scum and I think it is important to remember that Sheep has given Ben town points later.

Page six of topic one has interactions between Sultan and Ben that make it obvious they arent aligned, if any of you are still afraid of our Prosty.

Post 413 he claims not to have paid much attention to Sultan which is strange given he and Sultan had a whole back and forth on page 6.

Topic 2 I start by voting Sheep and Ben soon follows with a vote of his own, a sheep vote if you will!

Interestingly though, from Bens own mouth he like to give me his vote early so that I can do things and drive the game however the very next page he undercuts my momentum in post 58 in long form and post 60 in short by saying Sheep is probably town.

Post 64 is Kirbys town clear I think. He calls Ben out for not declaring him boldly town unlike last game and I noticed this too. I think Kirby saw both Sheep and Ben for what they were but lacked a little confidence his indy list gave him last game to drive it home. Understandable, but I see the gears working of a brilliant mafia mind, if a bit more timid for being a fish out of their native waters. I see you Kirby, youre special.

Post 72 is important enough to quote

PunishedBen posted...
Contrary to popular belief I'm not a sheeper by trade. Chris just breaks mafia games. Voting with Chris is just the best gameplay in our current enviroment. Because if he is town that just makes him more dangerous. And if he is scum then it will look very odd if the most dangerous man in the world is alive at end game.

Chris just breaks mafia games. But also he undermines my lynch even though he hops on for a short time. He is clearly talking out of both sides of his mouth because he doesnt want to lose his Tracker day one just because Chris decided it was meant to be.

This was crack # 2

128 he decides to vote Corrik (notably after I tell IGCD he should vote for him if he is bothered by him, this is clearly Ben hoping to lead me to a member of town instead of Sheep and getting out in front of it. Sadly for Ben I didnt take the bait.)

In post 153 I declare myself, basically, a BADASS FUCKING OVERLORD, and say hi to Ben.

We talk about his lack of engagement of me which I found concerning, he gives some pretty poor answers about how I havent suspected him which I feel is telling on himself a bit. He says he hasnt gotten a town read on Sulan yet which is concerning. I challenge this saying I thought Sultan had been and Ben says he straight up clears himself.

That immediately set off alarm bells so I asked him a question about Kirby and started to dig while he answered that. He was also kind enough to give me a town list.

Chris. scare. mzero. sheep. chang. plum. Kirby. IGCD

I feel as if Ben would be very, very careful about overpopulating this with scum as scum. I wont go into big detail here, but something to keep in mind. I feel as if Sheep is only here because I presented a direct threat to him.

213 I let Ben know that I think we have a problem with his alignment. He tells me to save it for day 2. I mentally decline the offer and post how Ben hasnt ever been concerned about Sultan not being super obvious town before and that I dont like a Ben who tells lies. Crack 3. Three strikes, and you get a Chris vote. Ben tries to defend himself but as noted I believe by Death or maybe someone else he takes awhile to get to even a decent answer about Sultan. Like, 9 hours later sort of later and even then it isnt great. After this back and forth I was pretty sure Ben was scum, have been ever since, but Ben wasnt the only scum. My back and forth with Ben is spread over 213 to 256 and is suggested reading.

At this point, Bens role in his own scuminess is over for day one, although night has a cap off for this for Ben, so lets turn to Sheep and how he put more dirt on Bens eventual grave today.

So I say hello to Sheep and ask for his thoughts on Ben.

Sheep007 posted...
I think he stumbled over himself a fair bit and got caught up in semantics, but I don't think I can take much from that other than he felt he was under pressure from you. I haven't thought Ben was highly Town once in early D1 since mafia restarted, and that's not changed this game, but I don't take particular issue with any of what he said.

This is the most uncomfortable I have ever seen Sheep in my life. So many words so say I dont know for someone who he gave town points to earlier. Not even a Well I thought he was town earlier for the mzero stuff but that was awkward of him. Just a void of giving me any actual thought. I let Sheep know I felt his response was very measured. He lets me know he doesnt think Ben is great under pressure and just gives me nothing at all. Its as neutral as you could possibly be. He then lets me know I am very pro town and admits to struggling. The rest is why Sheep died yesterday, but those posts about Ben I truly feel match up perfectly with how a scum partner who knows he is facing a very good town player who is on their game would react. On top of that, given those circumstances, of course Sheep would try one last desperation distancing move by voting Ben to end the day. Its the only reasonable thing for scum to do when face with that situation.

Finally, I have no quotes or citations for the neighbors chat just my frank analysis. Ben didnt want to be there and regretted it immediately. He didnt post a lot, when he did it was just repeating what had been said or very tepid new opinions that didnt have a lot of convictions behind them. He didnt want to collaborate, he didnt want to know my inner most thoughts on anything or tips on how to approach certain players if I died. He did the very basic bare minimum and he spent great swaths of time just not there at all. He is scm neighbor who was hoping to convince me one on one not to suspect him but he just didnt have any fire at all.

Ben is scum.Please vote him whenever you feel like it. This is the direction the day should take today. More scum to catch on other days, but theres just no way Ben isnt it given his posts, Sheeps posts, and my chat with him. Thats not even everything, just the highlights.

More implications will come later as I got bored. Stupid Insomnia brain.

Well the way you put it does make it look bad for Ben.

I will have to do my own lookover, but I do also remember the part about Sultan since Ben couldnt really stick to one explanation for it.

Also look forward to Bens responses.

Question though.. what was the plan with 'dont lynch Ben today?'
(I always assume you have a plan in mind)

Reactions and to see where people went if I actively said that and also Ben's reaction in specific.

But I just get the sense from Ben today that he knew he wasn't getting away from me so I just decided to just spit it out since I am feeling impatient. That and multiple people have proven they like to give scum info for free so <_<

I think the thing I just want to drive home like a spear is... town ben scum sheep, right? You've already given Town Ben town cred topic one for mzero. Why not defend a member of town from me? You already laid the foundation. He doesn't even mention his earlier 'read.' He just got caught knowing ben was scum and feeling as if he couldn't contradict me.

Hmm

Does Ben, who has a track record of nonsensical vanilla claims still claim suicidally when he has a provable fake claim in Rey?

I need to ponder this. I do like the thought process of kylo ren also being a potential user of that power. That certainly diffused my main argument a bit

UltimaterializerX posted...

. I even made multiple setups as a host that were pro-claim, because that game might have been the most fun Ive ever had.

this has no bearing on the accusation and your lack of mentioning me at all In response to being labeled as being in your scum mentality is telling.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Lopen joking about being gladiator and then walking it back is a red flag, and I have not been impressed with Artis responses to Kirby at all.

This was never a real thing and always a joke based on last game. Sure you died night 1, but don't act like you don't know any part of what happened that game. you were in dead town chat.

masterplum posted...

Hmm

Does Ben, who has a track record of nonsensical vanilla claims still claim suicidally when he has a provable fake claim in Rey?

I need to ponder this. I do like the thought process of kylo ren also being a potential user of that power. That certainly diffused my main argument a bit

Can you explain what you mean by the first paragraph?

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Can you explain what you mean by the first paragraph?

So Ben, in order to claim his power, has to admit that his first claim under duress was false. Him admitting to lying about his claim is 1st level scum behavior that b8 town loves to assume is ironclad scum behavior.

Does ben do this as scum?

masterplum posted...

So Ben, in order to claim his power, has to admit that his first claim under duress was false. Him admitting to lying about his claim is 1st level scum behavior that b8 town loves to assume is ironclad scum behavior.

Does ben do this as scum?

His neighboring of me was apparently a day action according to him. So he knew when he made that claim I was his target and he picked out the exact narrative that he didn't claim to conform to my no power claim rules 'teehee' and such.

In essence, a gambit because scum Ben was desperate.

So lets analyze this

why would scum choose you to neighbor? That seems fairly foolish

masterplum posted...

So lets analyze this

why would scum choose you to neighbor? That seems fairly foolish

Who else would a Ben trying to say he is town choose other than his top town read and personal hero.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

I press further and eventually it turns out that Ben was thinking of Ulti when I made him go look it up and this was entirely fabricated.

Except it was completely true and not fabricated at all.

Corrik7 posted...

Except it was completely true and not fabricated at all.

Corrik? He literally admitted he was wrong about what he said.

masterplum posted...

So lets analyze this

why would scum choose you to neighbor? That seems fairly foolish

Not as foolish as to claim a neighborizer who didnt target Chris.

It being a day action seems very iffy tho

Ben, I do have a question for you if you are here. It is more logically based than Chris' painting.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Corrik? He literally admitted he was wrong about what he said.

And I told him already he was right actually on day 1. I am the person in question. I knew all along he was right and chose to not say anything til much later.

Corrik7 posted...

Ben, I do have a question for you if you are here. It is more logically based than Chris' painting.

Corrik7 posted...

And I told him already he was right actually on day 1. I am the person in question. I knew all along he was right and chose to not say anything til much later.

I will table this discussion for now and allow you to talk with Ben as I see no point pressing this further between us. Happy hunting.

Let's start with going over posts by me ignored day 1.

DoomTheGyarados 5/17/2022 5:57:40 PM
#210
undefined posted...

Corrik: It's reds response to me that makes him town.

Quote it please?

Leafeon13N posted...

If there are two trackers corrik is prob scum

There is really no scum mindset where Red says this. If he is scum, he knows Sheep is already town. He knows Sheep isn't gonna flip Town Tracker. So there is no point to say this.

Topic 2, Post 255
Corrik7 posted...

Ben, does it make you happy to know you were right and see you day 2 and day 3 is actually stuff I do say, despite your poor retraction of being wrong?

I mean I do think Ben sounds pretty scummy here but im also with Plum here.

Why would he pick Chris as scum in any situation?

Also I am inclined to assume IGCD saved chris atleadt id imagine.

Like scum is already shooting at chris why would they double down like that?

Points for Ben maybe looking town would be alright chris is sure as dead tonight, let me get as much info as I can from him before he is dead.