Board 8 > In honour of 20 years of Attack of the Clones, a poll

(+) Yeah! (+)

So my reason for this poll was thinking about the original reception of Attack of the Clones and how many, many people were touting it as a huge improvement over The Phantom Menace for a few months after release. It infamously got five stars from Empire which they later retracted. This poll seems to bear that out - while TPM always would have been ahead, it would have been much, much closer with AotC back then. We must also consider that questions like this bias people towards always having picked the right option even if they changed their minds in reality so the true number of switchers is likely even higher.

I distinctly remember loving TPM at release and while it has many flaws, even now I dont consider it to be that bad. Its mediocre at worst. AotC I didnt like even at the time, its one of the first films I remember watching and not thinking its very good even as a kid. I guess the change in opinion has mainly come from older fans, Im curious about why so many have changed their minds on this subject.

Lightning Strikes posted...

So my reason for this poll was thinking about the original reception of Attack of the Clones and how many, many people were touting it as a huge improvement over The Phantom Menace for a few months after release. It infamously got five stars from Empire which they later retracted.

the digital bits did a similar thing. they gave AotC a B+ at first and later changed it to a C+ lol

it's worth noting that AotC is still higher rated than TPM on IMDb (albeit by only 0.1).

I feel like people are romanticizing the Obi Wan stuff in AotC

I've always said "this movie would be watchable if you did a cut that kept all the Obi Wan stuff and removed like 90% of Anakin/Padme"

But the key is the phrasing has always been watchable. Not good. It's not cringey anymore but it's not very compelling either. It's a bit boring. I've always felt that AotC basically has got the same problems TPM does (TPM is also a bit boring) with some super bad stuff thrown on top. Keep in mind I've never hated Jar Jar, so for people that really did I could see that if you think he's worse than Anakin/Padme.

yeah, i also made the point recently that people really overrate the obi-wan detective stuff in AotC.

no, the scenes aren't cringey. yes, mcgregar plays the character really well. but those things don't make the scenes good. even as a kid, i thought the obi-wan stuff was mostly boring.

Mr Lasastryke posted...

yeah, i also made the point recently that people really overrate the obi-wan detective stuff in AotC.

no, the scenes aren't cringey. yes, mcgregar plays the character really well. but those things don't make the scenes good. even as a kid, i thought the obi-wan stuff was mostly boring.

I just think it's more engaging than anything else either movie has going on

Paratroopa1 posted...

I just think it's more engaging than anything else either movie has going on

I mean, yes

But is it good? Is it good enough to be something that lifts the rest of the movie?

I would say AotC is the more boring movie on the whole in spite of that part being decent, because it's not actually that much of the movie and the rest of it is worse than anything going on in TPM. (Even when it's not cringey, it is very sleep-inducing-- TPM is a bit boring but I'm not actually struggling to stay awake)

Like a 5/10 portion in a movie that's 1/10 for 90% of its runtime doesn't mean the 5/10 part is actually good, nor does it mean that the movie as a whole is better than a 2.5/10 movie for 90% of its runtime whose best parts peak at 4/10.

Something's wrong with you if you struggle to stay awake in any movie. Get more sleep at night - you'll live longer.

I mean I have sleep apnea so falling asleep watching TV, reading books, or playing games is pretty easy for me and I don't really view it as a sign something is bad

Mac Arrowny posted...

Something's wrong with you if you struggle to stay awake in any movie. Get more sleep at night - you'll live longer.

Dumber post than anything related to Star Wars in here to be sure.

sleeping to tv is what i do literally every day

and yes the many horrors of waking up to a dead gameboy/ds/switch, realizing i fell asleep before i could save

Note that I didn't and haven't fallen asleep on any movie ever (aside from V for Vendetta but I was sick for that) unless it was viewed super late at night.

The number of movies I'd say "nearly put me to sleep" about is a very short one, however. AotC and Hulk 2003 (the latter much closer than the former to be fair) are the only two I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are a few more but I doubt more than I could count on one hand.

But yeah thinking that's necessarily a health problem is lol.

I'm re-watching PT-OT in prep for Kenobi. Currently half-way through Phantom Menace (1 hour left, Qui-Gon departs Tatooine with Ani) and I gotta say I'm really enjoying it.

Of course I have much more foundational knowledge of everything over the years but I'm following along with it much better than my child-self really did. Jar-Jar never really annoyed me and he still doesn't really, yeah sometimes a bit much but the real issue with his presence is the lack of Kenobi's, who's been really kept in the back benches. That being said, Qui-Gon introducing Ani to Kenobi was honestly a nice moment and at this point Liam Neeson has absolutely sold the Tatooine story. It's even nice having Padme along with him although as always I still don't really get the point of the body doubling. Also though gained more appreciation of Shmi.

Pod Racing had me pausing rune factory to just focus on it and it's great fun, gotta love Greg Proops and some other random cameos I'm spotting in the background like Warwick Davis without an Ewok costume anymore now just watching the race beside Watto. And Aurra Sing!... okay this was her first appearance so of course I wouldn't care originally.

also i will now only know dice by the term chance cubes and nothing more. and lmfao "this is so wizard Ani" top class slang

Although the real problem is there's an hour left and this is where my memory of the movie goes absolutely blank beyond Anakin flying a Naboo starfighter, the overall big battle alongside Gungans, and the Maul fight which I don't really remember where that's supposed to take place exactly. I do though already feel much more saddened by the coming loss of Qui-Gon after now appreciating his discovery and mentorship of Ani so much more.

Anyways i just had to pause and get these positive thoughts out before the rest of the movie I'm unsure of, what I can say is that the Naboo climax really isn't set-up well. Hour left and the mission was fix the ship and go to Coruscant and it'll have to be a fast jump to then bounce back to a Naboo conflict.

GuessMyUserName posted...

sleeping to tv is what i do literally every day

and yes the many horrors of waking up to a dead gameboy/ds/switch, realizing i fell asleep before i could save

I always play with them plugged in if I know there's a chance of me falling asleep.

I mentioned this to Lopen but the PT has absolutely phenomenal sound design. Podracing was way better on rewatch recently because the sound editing is just amazing.

I've tried plugging them in but I'm a bit of a roller so even then I wake up with the device tossed aside, unplugged and dead :(

after a break at that pause, Phantom Menace beated

They put a lot into that last hour but yeah it is very rushed. Starting with Coruscant though I really do like how we see Palps scheming his way into power, and through the course of the movie you can see he's egging on the Trade Federation to put Naboo at danger, leaning on Amidala to do what he wants: call the no-confidence vote on Valorum so Palps can move up, as he says in private, and again as the conniving snake in her ear as the senate votes to push her decision. Discussing afterwards with Palp/Padme/Panaka you can see how this has been his plan with the Trade Federation from the start of the movie, as Padme asks who else is nominated for chancellor and Panaka responds about others from Alderaan & Malastare but here Palpi says how he feels confident Naboo's situation with the Trade Federation will give him a strong sympathy vote. Not only did he get Amidala to open up the position, but to do so in a way that gives him favourability. It really makes me wish this came out in the YouTube era of theory vids since this is the exact kinda stuff people latch onto.

After this Padme's frustrated about the lengthy process and pushes to return home, but Palp's already got what he wants so mission accomplished. The return to Naboo though is where things really get weak outside of Duel of Fates. I think the reason this section has always been so forgettable to me is with how much it tries to cram into these last 30 minutes between Gungans, Naboo infiltration, Maul, and uh... Anakin destroying the droid control station... jesus I know people complain about Jar-Jar's clumsy luck but I find that trope hilarious whereas Anakin bumbling his way into accomplishing the starfighter task is the absolute peak of Star Wars bullshittery oh my god most of the time somehow he has autopilot doing everything until he tells R2 to screw this, go off the rails and just... blow up the command center... fuck off lmfao, and the other pilots are in shock like omg who did that, oh one of ours is flying out yay we did it!

Gungan battle not much to say beyond what I already did about Jar-Jar's luck, but this does give me heavy nostalgia of playing Galactic Battlegrounds. Naboo infiltration I lol'd at the ascension guns. I do like though that Padme got to trick and overcome the Viceroy before Anakin won it all.

Maul/Obi/Qui-Gon is always part of the movie I actually remembered so not much to comment here, except that I love the fury Obi-Wan comes out swinging after Qui-Gon falls, it's a real fast-action lightsaber fight where his character really starts to shine through his potential as a Jedi. This movie's definitely kept Kenobi in the background for the most part but it's done a good job developing his character, questioning his master but still clearly respecting him, and then following his lead taking up Anakin in spite of the Jedi Council's opinion. Like ultimately through the PT Obi-Wan is still much more in-line with the council throughout the later movies (hence actually joining it), but he doesn't have become as defiant as Qui-Gon so I like that he just takes some backbone.

Anyhow, I'm cool with Phantom Menace. It's a silly but fun Star Wars movie with some good groundwork for the PT's narrative, and Qui-Gon Jinn best Jedi mentor. Kenobi is like a brother to Anakin, but Qui-Gon was the master he needed.

half-hour into AotC oh my god incel anakin is just so bad and you aren't eased into it or anything he's really just a full-on dickhead right away, whining about restrictions, how good he is, how physically obsessed with Padme he is despite never seeing her in 10 years... then the Jedi Council has also done a 180 flip and now Kenobi's the one pleading he's not ready yet and the Council is the one saying that well if he's the the prophecy then he'll bring balance to the force wtf

now Anakin alone with Padme and she's telling him to stop staring at her like a creep and he's like why notttttt :(((( I'm big boyyyy

Literally ended the scene with a 'milady, like holy shit is Anakin just the original incel prototype omg. I get that he's a immature brat being raised by a repressive cult but my god the whiplash from PM to AotC is insane and we really don't see Anakin develop into this asshole he's just already there from the jump. Same even goes for his relationship with Palpatine, he already starts off the movie with a strong mentor relationship with Palps he's clearly lacking with Kenobi. There's just no damn build-up to the state of AotC when Anakin's already found a father figure in Palpatine who he's merely passed by without notice in Phantom Menace.

boy, Phantom Menace I had to pause to say I was really liking it, but AotC I had to pause even sooner for the opposite.

lmfao then their first date they have a little convo about how anakin would love a dictatorship and she smiles and laughs about what a funny joke he just made

AotC rewatch beated.......... it doesn't get any of the remarks of interest I had for Phantom Menace. Outside of Obi-Wan's investigation specifically as it pertains to Kamino/Jango the movie is just so dumb, maddening, and most of all just so very boring. Especially when we get to Geonosis my mind is just out of it. maybe I should've known not to watch the movie that historically makes me sleepy passed midnight but what's done is done now.

I think the saddest part for me is that I really like Dooku and I think he has an interesting role but throughout the trilogy he's completely underutilized. We get Jango mentioning to be hired from Tyranus, then... well, Geonosis there he is but everything that happens here is a snore. It's interesting he reveals the existence of Sidious but it's left rather confusing because of how little attention is really given to him otherwise.

You missed the part where Anakin uses the force to grab Padm's food, cut it, and ONLY give her a sliver of it back. I think that's my favorite wtf Anakin moment from the movie.

GuessMyUserName posted...

lmfao then their first date they have a little convo about how anakin would love a dictatorship and she smiles and laughs about what a funny joke he just made

i can say, without exaggeration, that that scene feels like a scene from the room with higher production values. the writing, the acting... jesus christ it's atrocious.

To be fair though...

"We should sit the politicians down and discuss an issue until we find a solution"
"Anakin, that is what we do"

Is a little funny.

AotC is the worst Star Wars movie and it isn't close.

Maniac64 posted...

AotC is the worst Star Wars movie and it isn't close.

Not as long as Solo still exists

Leonhart4 posted...

Not as long as Solo still exists

You mean the Clone Wars movie?

Oh right, the Clone Wars movie is even worse than Solo. Amazing how they went from that to the TV series, haha.

I enjoyed Solo.

Never seen the clone wars movie.

I honestly can't fathom hating Solo to the degree of AotC & RoS

never saw Clone Wars movie though, maybe I'll add that to my watches before Kenobi

I don't even consider the Clone Wars movie in the same category as the other Star Wars movies.

Solo could have been fine if they had cast a guy who could even remotely make me believe he was Han Solo.

watching the AotC Deleted Scenes in the Disney+ extras now and wow Raid on the Droid Control Ship is like the "trust the process" tiktok meme at professional capacity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIFul_HeFWQ

unfinished footage like this is so fascinating

That youtube is more entertaining than Attack of the Clones my goodness I'm rolling

RotS beated and unlike AotC I have good things to say again!

I think the rescue of Palpatine is the best start of the PT movies - although I enjoyed PT's setup as well (until the Gungan fish chase), this one definitely mirror's the good, the Qui-Gon & Kenobi space mission for now Kenobi & Anakin, it finishes the landing with a significant, grey moment for Anakin's execution of Dooku. Yes making the "evil" choice but he's conflicted, understands the wrong, he's not just an arrogant angsty dickhead here and rather succumbing to Palp's orders. Which is another thing, I didn't think Anakin's great respect for Palpatine was properly seeded in AotC he was kinda just already there, but now for RotS it's long been established so it works.

Anakin isn't as completely loathsome in this... at least until he pledges himself to the dark side and goes immediately extreme. But before then he really is more mature now, considering his faults (sure, still blaming the Council for stupid things like not capitulating the Palpatine). He's a reasonably flawed character for a good portion of this until his turn (even in that turning point, reacting to Windu's attempt to strike Palpatine down was an understandable emotional mistake). Anakin understands what he's done in this moment, but then it's his stark turn after that's infuriating. He's lying to Padme while he goes murdering children which then makes his grandstanding in the climax so ludicrous. He acts outraged about the evils of the jedi but he witnessed first hand Palpatine's true nature he now defends and lies for.

Still though that climax battle was best, iconic way to end this trilogy, it's so absurdly over the top from the flashy saber rattling, to the balance-beam battle, scaling on a column, swinging on ropes all while fighting. It's a ridiculous but epic showdown that's been built-up from the whole history of Star Wars from Episode IV up to this moment and I love it.

also lmao padme "I don't believe what I'm hearing" he was literally saying this from your first date

Between PM & RotS I don't really know which is better but they're both fine. Phantom Menace I think kept me more pleased with Qui-Gon's mentorship, and hinting of Palpatine's schemes keeping it subtle so far and not as stupid... although the Naboo side's a snore and Anakin blowing up the droid command center is garbage. Revenge of the Sith I'm picking apart more ridiculous logic used to progress the story buuut provides the epic conclusion of Anakin's story that's so significant the franchise, while nicely setting up the lead-in to New Hope at the end. Both movies have their good points with their bad and they aren't really the same ones so I'll leave it at that.

Deleted Scenes:

lmao people say the camp wasn't intentional but it's not hard to disagree when seeing this comedy like in the full Elevator Antics scene (unfortunately I can't find the Disney+ Extras version on YouTube)

I love that there's multiple deleted scenes of Shaak Ti being murdered, one by Grievous another by Anakin... in the end she lives.

and oh god the Animatics scenes are incredible
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGI1npFXj7I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KTmRT5tkek (hell yeah we get to see why they're on balancing beams)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-LQFTIIyWM (oh my god i want force lava fights, but RIP high ground)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BEfD8-rx9g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6q2PD-ANsw (holy shit this is so much longer than the final cut)

i think one of the reasons why i liked RotS better than TPM is that i appreciated all of the fanservicey references. the construction of the death star (tarkin finally shows up), alderaan, kashyyyk - with direct reference to the freaking holiday special, of all things... it's just fun to see all of that stuff. TPM, despite a lot of familiar characters appearing, didn't feel as connected to the old movies.

also, i do hate jar jar, so him not having a speaking part at all in RotS was a huge improvement for me. and angsty anakin sucks but i still prefer him to kid anakin, who's completely insufferable.

oh yeah, one thing i only recently found out about AotC: apparently, the name of the death sticks guy is "elan sleazebaggano."

...come on. that's just inexcusable.

Inexcusably awesome.

I'm pretty sure that's a name the fanbase gave him because they cannot allow even a single character in the series not to have a name, no matter how insignificant they are.

Oh are we doing this?

Empire > New Hope > Revenge > Last Jedi > Force Awakens > Return > Phantom > Clones > Skywalker

People give the new movies a lot of shit but I think the only one that's truly bad is the last one. Couldn't stand it, but I loved Last Jedi and really enjoyed Force Awakens.

Prequels were all meh to cringe except Revenge of the Sith, which I loved.

Empire and New Hope are untouchable, though. Return, though... Probably the most blatant toy selling movie in the entire franchise, redeemed by its ending.

Mr Lasastryke posted...

oh yeah, one thing i only recently found out about AotC: apparently, the name of the death sticks guy is "elan sleazebaggano."

...come on. that's just inexcusable.

A lot of names were just George Lucas describing what he saw.

Admiral Ackbar was named on the spot, and the "Mon Calamari" were named as such because the designer called him the Calamari man.

oh yeah, a lot of lucas names are very on the nose.

luke skywalker - he wants to leave his planet and travel into the sky
han solo - "i take orders from just one person: me."
darth vader - "vader" means "father" in dutch
nute gunray - newt gingrich
general grievous - his very name stands for PAIN AND SUFFERING (as maddox points out)

...still, "elan sleazebaggano" is a little too ridiculous.

Well, his name was originally supposed to be Luke Starkiller.

Also, evidence points toward Lucas not intending to make Vader Luke's father initially. It is a little on the nose, though.

i think i have:

3 > 7 > 8 > 1 > 2 > 9

notes:

- recently rewatched 1-3 and 7, plus saw 9 tor the first time. have never rewatched 8 or 9, and did not see them in theaters

- love the lightsaber battles in 1 and 2. 2 might be the hardest to rank because anakin is so unwatchable but the action parts are so fun.

- still think 7 is probably the most competently made of these and liked it above 3 when it first came out. the lack of followthrough retroactively hurts it a bit

- switching my viewpoint on 3 to watching for the memes skyrockets it in my rankings

not a ton of interest in the gaiden movies

So... What about 4-6 lol